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Neurosis posted:If a good editor with a lot of time and a real knowledge of WoT were to go back and cull all of the writers' tics and meandering chapters that go nowhere I would buy the gently caress out of it. You'd still be dealing with some very annoying characters, but there's enough of interest in the series to hold it up, if just it were about 2/3 of the length it is now. Jordan's editor being his wife didn't help. Honestly the Wheel of Time works alright as a trilogy with a little bit of re-writing you could probably end the series in the Dragon Reborn. Not necessarily saying you should, however my enjoyment of the series seriously diminished by book 4. By the time I got to Crown of Swords and just got tired of reading the books and moved on to something else. At least for me WoT is a huge commitment to see through, and personally I was not up to it. Hieronymous Alloy posted:Malazan . . . some people really like it. The author is some kind of anthropologist I think so there's a lot of detail and individual scenes and characters can be decent reads. I have two big problems with it : 1) It's clearly based on the author's RPG campaign characters being TOTAL BADASSES, and 2) C'om'mas Don't M'ake U'p fo'r W'rld'bl'd'ng. One of my first acts as moderator of this forum was to add extra commas to the title of the malazan thread and nobody noticed for months. How I look at the Malazan series vs the Black Company (which I also like more and am rereading for the first time in about four years) is sort of like comparing Aubrey-Martin to Horatio Hornblower. I enjoyed both those books series, but the Aubrey & Malazan both go into autistic sperg levels of detail and complexity at times. Sometimes this is really cool, however other times it kinds wears on me and gets in the way of the actual story. Jack2142 fucked around with this message at 06:25 on Jan 19, 2017 |
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Jan 19, 2017 06:13
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I read Three Parts Dead, and the people in this thread who said that it was good were three parts correct! I could maybe have done with 10% less Ms. Kevarian having everything Just As Planned all along, but it wasn't egregious, and Tara and Abelard were both engaging characters.
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Jan 19, 2017 06:47
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Jack2142 posted:Honestly the Wheel of Time works alright as a trilogy with a little bit of re-writing you could probably end the series in the Dragon Reborn. Not necessarily saying you should, however my enjoyment of the series seriously diminished by book 4. By the time I got to Crown of Swords and just got tired of reading the books and moved on to something else. At least for me WoT is a huge commitment to see through, and personally I was not up to it. I enjoyed the original Black Company trilogy although the main character being Goony mcGoons and painfully awkward around women was grating at times. I tried reading the Books of the South and couldn't get into them. I also read the first 7 Malayan books pretty quick but I've been stalling on book 8. All the stuff in the city of the dark elves is depressing and slow and I can't loving slog through t even though I know the end is supposed to have a big pay off and the last two books are supposed to be better. I'd read a book that was just about Ben the wizard with multiple
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Jan 19, 2017 08:55
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Kalenn Istarion posted:I also read the first 7 Malayan books pretty quick but I've been stalling on book 8. All the stuff in the city of the dark elves is depressing and slow and I can't loving slog through t even though I know the end is supposed to have a big pay off and the last two books are supposed to be better. It did have a great payoff but man, it was a book that demanded some attention. It came out just as my wife was expecting our first child so I brought it to the hospital thinking I would have to wait around a lot; I did have to wait around a lot, and was out of work for the six weeks after (dad leave/saved-up vacation time) but was still reading the same drat book when I went back to work again; and when the next book came out a year later it turned out I couldn't remember a loving thing from #8 and had to reread it.
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Jan 19, 2017 10:50
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Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:I've mentioned it in the thread before, but the best hands down litrpg books I have read are the Caverns and Creatures books by Robert Bevan. It's less hit points and whatnot, and more 4 people are trapped in a rpg and they are also assholes. Oh Yeah, I didn't know LitRPG was a thing til recently, but Caverns and Creatures might as well be LitRPG for me cuz it doesn't get any better than those amazing books when it comes to that concept/genre. Uptight reddit dude trying to say it's his genre or whatever should bow down to Robert Bevan.
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Jan 19, 2017 15:42
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Kalenn Istarion posted:I also read the first 7 Malayan books pretty quick but I've been stalling on book 8. All the stuff in the city of the dark elves is depressing and slow and I can't loving slog through t even though I know the end is supposed to have a big pay off and the last two books are supposed to be better.
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Jan 19, 2017 16:20
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Jack2142 posted:Honestly the Wheel of Time works alright as a trilogy with a little bit of re-writing you could probably end the series in the Dragon Reborn. Not necessarily saying you should, however my enjoyment of the series seriously diminished by book 4. By the time I got to Crown of Swords and just got tired of reading the books and moved on to something else. At least for me WoT is a huge commitment to see through, and personally I was not up to it. Books 4 through 6 are the best part of the series, though.  1~3 are probably better than 7+, but they're a fairly rote farmboy-to-emperor travelogue sort of deal. The story only really opens up in TSR, and Rand as megalomanic wizard king and possibly-insane schemer is infinitely more interesting than Rand as angsty chosen one on a quest. Hieronymous Alloy posted:2) C'om'mas Don't M'ake U'p fo'r W'rld'bl'd'ng. One of my first acts as moderator of this forum was to add extra commas to the title of the malazan thread and nobody noticed for months. Not to defend Malazan, but I find it kinda hilarious that the mod of the literature subforum has managed to confuse apostrophes and commas.  anilEhilated posted:Toll the Hounds is special, yeah. It's probably the worst book in the series on the first read, but it ends in one hell of a conflagration and it becomes considerably more interesting on reread (especially if you read the prequel books which turn just about everything you thought you know about said dark elves upside down). It's a slog, it's personally my least favorite of the series but FWIW I think it's still worth reading. Funnily enough, I think Toll the Hounds was the last Malazan book I actually enjoyed. I loved the way it slowly escalated into that ridiculous everything-blowing-up-at-the-same-time ending. Dust of Dreams and The Crippled God, now those were slogs. I think I must have finished the last one out of sheer bloody-minded stubbornness more than anything else.
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Jan 19, 2017 17:10
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:2) C'om'mas Don't M'ake U'p fo'r W'rld'bl'd'ng. One of my first acts as moderator of this forum was to add extra commas to the title of the malazan thread and nobody noticed for months. A less insightful person might have thought they noticed and just didn't think it worthy of comment. Well done.
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Jan 19, 2017 17:35
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Autonomous Monster posted:
Oh there is no literature forum here. This is, regrettably, the forum for people who refer to their Star Trek novels as "my collection". At best we have a plucky group of frustrated English majors trying to lead the rest of us whores to culture, like Red Dawn but with words. We're all lucky we haven't just been merged with BSS. This isn't the only place I've flubbed those two together recently, either. Weird. I guess these days I'm just happy I can still spell "syllable." Alternatively, the Warren of Grammar is taking its revenge. (Gr'mar?) Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Jan 19, 2017 |
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Jan 19, 2017 18:05
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Number Ten Cocks posted:A less insightful person might have thought they noticed and just didn't think it worthy of comment. Well done. Oh, I waited and watched for the first people to post things like "wait, did the thread title change?" Etc.
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Jan 19, 2017 18:06
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:At best we have a plucky group of frustrated English majors trying to lead the rest of us whores to culture, like Red Dawn but with words.
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Jan 19, 2017 18:30
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Anything by Lawrence Watt-Evans, especially The Misenchanted Sword I read this back at the end of last year, and it's a fun twist on the usual swords and sorcery type stuff.
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Jan 19, 2017 19:24
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Rand Brittain posted:I read Three Parts Dead, and the people in this thread who said that it was good were three parts correct! Yeah, I liked it but I just did not think the writing held up to the premise at all. I was fine with the spoilered thing except there was just way too much "and now I am going to point blank explain this" for me.
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Jan 19, 2017 20:07
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Jack2142 posted:Honestly the Wheel of Time works alright as a trilogy with a little bit of re-writing you could probably end the series in the Dragon Reborn. Not necessarily saying you should, however my enjoyment of the series seriously diminished by book 4. By the time I got to Crown of Swords and just got tired of reading the books and moved on to something else. At least for me WoT is a huge commitment to see through, and personally I was not up to it. But then you would miss books 4 and 5, which are my favorites in the series. But yeah, the books could really be cut down to like 10 books, just by cutting out lovely plotlines that take forever. I still feel like one of the biggest flaws for the whole end game is that Jordan didn't spend enough time on the Black Tower considering how important the politics of it were. Plus it would have made Androl feel less like a bolted on character to fix poo poo. The Glumslinger fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Jan 19, 2017 |
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Jan 19, 2017 20:07
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Neurosis posted:If a good editor with a lot of time and a real knowledge of WoT were to go back and cull all of the writers' tics and meandering chapters that go nowhere I would buy the gently caress out of it. You'd still be dealing with some very annoying characters, but there's enough of interest in the series to hold it up, if just it were about 2/3 of the length it is now. Jordan's editor being his wife didn't help. Agreed. I bailed somewhere around book 8 or 9, and I think my biggest complaint was that he kept introducing new characters and subplots and schemes and foreshadowing and never loving resolving any of it, so each book moved slower than the one before because it had even more stuff to update. That said, Autonomous Monster posted:Rand as megalomanic wizard king and possibly-insane schemer is infinitely more interesting than Rand as angsty chosen one on a quest. this is 100% correct, but sadly not enough to keep me reading it. Kalenn Istarion posted:I'd read a book that was just about Ben the wizard with multiple I would love some shorter, more tightly focused books about Quick Ben or the other Bridgeburners prior to the events of Gardens of the Moon. I didn't make it through Malazan either, partly because I got sick of the sheer number of different plots and POVs to keep track of (although to his credit Erikson does keep things moving faster than Jordan did) and partly because I don't actually like most of the viewpoint characters (and the ones I do like have a regrettable tendency to vanish for multiple books at a time and/or die).
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Jan 19, 2017 21:03
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Rand Brittain posted:I read Three Parts Dead, and the people in this thread who said that it was good were three parts correct! I just finished this too, and enjoyed it a lot. One thing though - looking at the 2nd book's preview it seems to be completely different characters. Do we meet familiar faces again or is it a kind of world-based series like, say, the Culture novels? Not that I really mind either way, it's just rare to see a series like that.
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Jan 19, 2017 21:32
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Hobnob posted:I just finished this too, and enjoyed it a lot. One thing though - looking at the 2nd book's preview it seems to be completely different characters. Do we meet familiar faces again or is it a kind of world-based series like, say, the Culture novels? Not that I really mind either way, it's just rare to see a series like that.
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Jan 19, 2017 21:54
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DACK FAYDEN posted:First three have separate protagonists, but they start intersecting in book four. I haven't actually read the fifth one yet.
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Jan 19, 2017 22:03
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I wouldn't argue against any of the complaints against Wheel of Time or the Malazan novels, I'd agree with many of them, but I would say that I really enjoyed the last few Wheel of Time novels that Brandon Sanderson worked on, and was satisfied with the conclusion to the series. I don't know if I'd still enjoy it as much as I did if I started it fresh now considering I started reading it in the 90s, but the final three novels really wrapped up the story well and I have fond memories of it. As for Malazan, yeah, it really needed more editor input in the last few novels, I can still remember being annoyed and skimming when getting over-long philosophical monologues that really shouldve been cut, but it remains probably the best fantasy series I've ever read. I'd probably recommend it more to friends if the first novel wasn't so poor compared to the others, even thinking it should still be read first. And to conclude, Hieronymous Alloy is good to recommend Patrick O'Brian's Aubery/Maturin novels, I have never read anything that gave me such joy over the couple years it took me to read them all. The jargon was such a huge wall to overcome to enjoy the novels but the thread here on SA gave great advice to just go with it, as anything that the author thinks you need to really understand will be explained to the doctor character who knows nothing about the sea himself.
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Jan 19, 2017 23:01
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Ceebees posted:
Guards! Guards! is definitely the best starting point but if you can't find that, try Mort, Wyrd Sisters or maybe Pyramids.
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Jan 19, 2017 23:56
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The Glumslinger posted:But then you would miss books 4 and 5, which are my favorites in the series. I personally didn't really like the Aiel, which sapped alot of my enjoyment out of the 4th and 5th books. Kalenn Istarion posted:I enjoyed the original Black Company trilogy although the main character being Goony mcGoons and painfully awkward around women was grating at times. I tried reading the Books of the South and couldn't get into them. The books of the South are weird, its a pretty dramatic shift from the first trilogy and Cook seems to try to write the books more as straight up novels than the first person account of croaker in the annals like the earlier works. That being said, I kinda liked the setting shift while not executed perfectly I liked the books, although the series is probably about a book too long. I think the Malazan books are at their best when they are down on the "smaller" scale level of mortal characters, rather than ascendants and warren's etc.
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Jan 20, 2017 03:26
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^^ Kind of agreed regarding the Aiel. I found them kind of implausible, given the setting. I don't think inhabitants of a barren wasteland without resources would ever become the most significant military power on a continent. I also found their fighting prowess a little ridiculous. There's a part where Perrin and one Aiel, unarmed, kill 8 or 9 Whitecloaks; there are probably many others but on my last reread I only got to book 5. Jordan's grasp of combat in general and late middle ages/early renaissance warfare in particular is not good - can anyone remember armour ever doing anything? I know Jordan just really wanted his fantasy Fremen, but I think they could have been explained better - maybe if their prowess and warrior culture were sustained by better integration into their society of magic? Or if they had certain remnants of the Age of Legends (which they were meant to be keepers of) which mitigated their resources deficiency. Actually, in general, Jordan probably could've made better use of the relics from the Age of Legends and made it a bit more science fantasy-ish to reflect the many turns of the Wheel. Partly my own preferences speaking there - I think Dying Earth/science fantasy type settings are loving sick, and Jordan was trying to make it Tolkien-like, so I understand why it didn't happen. Still, the planet they're on is Earth (dunno how the cyclical nature tees up with what we know of deep history and our fossil records, unless we were the first turn of the Wheel, but whatever), so a bit more of that would've been appreciated. This is a total spergy nerd post on how my subjective opinions on what could have made the series better beyond more universal objective concerns with the books', though, so I'll shut up. Also re the Books of the South: they lost the appeal of the series for me, which was seeing a soldier's account of being wrapped up in conflicts way above his head, involving inscrutable and enigmatic powerful beings.
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Jan 20, 2017 05:05
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Neurosis posted:Also re the Books of the South: they lost the appeal of the series for me, which was seeing a soldier's account of being wrapped up in conflicts way above his head, involving inscrutable and enigmatic powerful beings. I liked getting a POV from one of those (formerly) inscrutable and enigmatic powerful beings. And after that we go back to a soldier POV, admittedly poor batshit crazy Murgen. Follow that up with a guerilla leader, and Croaker to wrap it up and the South stuff works for me.
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Jan 20, 2017 05:24
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The thing that bothered me about that one character is that losing your godlike power would not suddenly change you into a decent person and yet that seemed to be what mostly happened, at least up to the point where I gave up on the books of the south
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Jan 20, 2017 06:20
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Kalenn Istarion posted:The thing that bothered me about that one character is that losing your godlike power would not suddenly change you into a decent person and yet that seemed to be what mostly happened, at least up to the point where I gave up on the books of the south How I took it is that the Lady was always a decent person, but not really good and since power corrupts so having godlike power corrupted here into being evil? Its pretty telling that every mage in said series ranges from low powered guys like One Eye/Goblin merely being assholes to genocidal madmen Dominator/Limper. Also the second book of the South is written by her so I always felt her coming off in such a positive light is due to her being an unreliable narrator. Neurosis posted:^^ Kind of agreed regarding the Aiel. I found them kind of implausible, given the setting. I don't think inhabitants of a barren wasteland without resources would ever become the most significant military power on a continent. I also found their fighting prowess a little ridiculous. There's a part where Perrin and one Aiel, unarmed, kill 8 or 9 Whitecloaks; there are probably many others but on my last reread I only got to book 5. Jordan's grasp of combat in general and late middle ages/early renaissance warfare in particular is not good - can anyone remember armour ever doing anything? Yeah thats one of the issues I had with the Aiel, they felt like fantasy Fremen clones who were implausibly powerful in comparison to their background/backstory. With every series I think it suffered from power creep, after the end of the trilogy. Jack2142 fucked around with this message at 07:00 on Jan 20, 2017 |
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Jan 20, 2017 06:58
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Jack2142 posted:How I took it is that the Lady was always a decent person, but not really good and since power corrupts so having godlike power corrupted here into being evil? Its pretty telling that every mage in said series ranges from low powered guys like One Eye/Goblin merely being assholes to genocidal madmen Dominator/Limper. Also the second book of the South is written by her so I always felt her coming off in such a positive light is due to her being an unreliable narrator. Yeah the entire series is unreliablenarrator.txt
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Jan 20, 2017 07:32
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Neurosis posted:^^ Kind of agreed regarding the Aiel. I found them kind of implausible, given the setting. I don't think inhabitants of a barren wasteland without resources would ever become the most significant military power on a continent. I also found their fighting prowess a little ridiculous. There's a part where Perrin and one Aiel, unarmed, kill 8 or 9 Whitecloaks; there are probably many others but on my last reread I only got to book 5. Jordan's grasp of combat in general and late middle ages/early renaissance warfare in particular is not good - can anyone remember armour ever doing anything? Yeah, that fight does sound really silly, stupid and unbelievable now that you bring it up. IIRC, the Whitecloaks were like the European medieval knight holy order analogue, with full suits of the best armor, fanatical combat training/discipline and zealot devotion to their cause. Lol that that many of them at once would go down to two totally unarmored dudes, one of whom didn't even have a weapon.
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Jan 20, 2017 08:56
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Yeah man lol at those guys doing unrealistic things in a fantasy novel ha ha ha
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Jan 20, 2017 10:25
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Neurosis posted:^^ Kind of agreed regarding the Aiel. I found them kind of implausible, given the setting. I don't think inhabitants of a barren wasteland without resources would ever become the most significant military power on a continent. What? Like the Mongols?
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Jan 20, 2017 10:26
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I think you need to factor in that nearly every non borderland nation doesn't have a military force that's seen combat recently as well. Whereas the aiel are constantly fighting and raising. But yea I never particularly cared for the aiel.
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Jan 20, 2017 11:59
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PlushCow posted:And to conclude, Hieronymous Alloy is good to recommend Patrick O'Brian's Aubery/Maturin novels, I have never read anything that gave me such joy over the couple years it took me to read them all. The jargon was such a huge wall to overcome to enjoy the novels but the thread here on SA gave great advice to just go with it, as anything that the author thinks you need to really understand will be explained to the doctor character who knows nothing about the sea himself. I've been working through these myself lately and they're really great - HMS Surprise in particular was one of the best books I read last year. I can't remember who it was (maybe Jo Walton?) who compared them to fantasy, in a way: most readers probably don't have much of an idea about the early 19th century and so they do sort of take place in this fantastic world of far-flung lands and exotic foreigners and voyages and adventures and so on. On the topic of reads-like-fantasy-but-isn't-really: I have really been loving Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series, especially the first two chronological books, Dead Man's Walk and Comanche Moon. Apparently these are really well known in the US because they were a TV series, but I'd never heard of them. The only Westerns I'd ever really watched before were the late-period desert train robbery bandits versus lawmen sort of thing, whereas these are set very early on in Texas in the 1840s when the wilderness is still rife with hostile Comanche. And having a bunch of young, inexperienced, rag-tag Texas Rangers caught caught up in wild adventures and dragged across trackless desert into strange lands where they don't understand anything really reminded me of fantasy. Also Gus and Call are absolutely the Aubrey/Maturin odd couple of the Western frontier, and McMurtry is of the George RR Martin school of inflicting horrible fates on characters you think are untouchable. General Emergency posted:What? Like the Mongols? The Tuareg, maybe. Central Asia is not a barren desert.
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Jan 20, 2017 12:23
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freebooter posted:I've been working through these myself lately and they're really great - HMS Surprise in particular was one of the best books I read last year. I can't remember who it was (maybe Jo Walton?) who compared them to fantasy, in a way: most readers probably don't have much of an idea about the early 19th century and so they do sort of take place in this fantastic world of far-flung lands and exotic foreigners and voyages and adventures and so on. Yah, they've long had a special status among SF fans, I first got them recommended to me by several someones on rec.arts.sf.written back in the 90s (where Jo Walton was one of the more prominent regulars) and I remember that comparison as being simply commonly accepted wisdom. Patrick O'Brian does do a better job of describing an exotic alien world with weird technology than most SF writers, it's just that said alien world is our own past and the weird technology described in loving detail is 200-year-old sailing ships. Better fleet actions than most space opera, too.
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Jan 20, 2017 12:30
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freebooter posted:The Tuareg, maybe. Central Asia is not a barren desert. Or... the Arabs?  What is weird is that the Aiel are portrayed as being tactically superior in a way no one else can match- like the Mongols, only instead of being horse archers they're... spear dudes on foot? Not even Swiss-style pikemen, explicitly short spears and bucklers. The Aiel are cool though because they have those funky glass columns that show you the past and the people they clown on are a bunch of jackasses. The Wise Ones are basically the only authority figures in the series that aren't a bunch of terrible obstructive dipshits, which makes for a nice change of pace. savinhill posted:Yeah, that fight does sound really silly, stupid and unbelievable now that you bring it up. IIRC, the Whitecloaks were like the European medieval knight holy order analogue, with full suits of the best armor, fanatical combat training/discipline and zealot devotion to their cause. Lol that that many of them at once would go down to two totally unarmored dudes, one of whom didn't even have a weapon. Yeah, the books' combat runs on RPG logic to some extent. At this point Perrin is a level 8 Werewolf Fighter with a masterwork weapon, these level 2 Paladin chumps aren't even going to slow him down. Wheel of Time is not a Song of Ice and Fire; this is a world where learning weird meditative tricks can turn an untrained peasant into a master swordsman, remember.
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Jan 20, 2017 15:12
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In the later books it *is* indicated that the Seanchan can obliterate Aiel, basically by using combined arms.
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Jan 20, 2017 15:20
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Kalenn Istarion posted:Yeah man lol at those guys doing unrealistic things in a fantasy novel ha ha ha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verisimilitude_(fiction) You buffoon.
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Jan 20, 2017 15:20
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Jfc it's the V-word.
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Jan 20, 2017 15:47
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Autonomous Monster posted:Or... the Arabs? The Aiel bloodsister/BFF 4 eva ceremony is pretty badass. "Now no matter how you may quarrel in the future, remember that you have already struck your sister, and for no better reason than that you were told to" And not just little slaps to the face, they were properly belting each other.
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Jan 20, 2017 15:52
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Groke posted:Yah, they've long had a special status among SF fans, I first got them recommended to me by several someones on rec.arts.sf.written back in the 90s (where Jo Walton was one of the more prominent regulars) and I remember that comparison as being simply commonly accepted wisdom. This is why Aubrey/Maturin made it into the OP (Walter Jon Williams' first half-dozen books were also Age of Sail, btw.) Autonomous Monster posted:What is weird is that the Aiel are portrayed as being tactically superior in a way no one else can match- like the Mongols, only instead of being horse archers they're... spear dudes on foot? Not even Swiss-style pikemen, explicitly short spears and bucklers. Zulus? Oh wow it's me five years ago posting in Traditional Games. Hi, me.
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Jan 20, 2017 16:04
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If you actually legit think that just because a fictional universe has different physical laws than ours that believability within that universe doesn't matter you are a v. silly person.
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Jan 20, 2017 16:11
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Immersion is a lie. Discussion of verisimilitude actively distracts from mature critical comprehension. Imagined worlds are just a tool for storytelling. The only inconsistencies that ultimately matter are aesthetic and thematic ones. For example, in The Name of the Wind, a heretic-hunting inquisition operates practically next to a secular university of wizardry without any resulting conflict, which is a terrible thematic mix-up between theocratic oppression and academic flight of fancy. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Jan 20, 2017 |
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Jan 20, 2017 16:16
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