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Basic Chunnel posted:The destruction fuckery gets to the heart of where LW2 lies in its philosophy - cover destruction is a cool mechanic that was both a source of fun mayhem and a tactical consideration in the original series, XCOM to a lesser extent, and XCOM2 to a greater extent. LW has always been about curtailing reliable tools and mechanics as "maladaptive tactics", as some grog put it earlier. The tragedy of LW is that on the surface it appears to be a creative, freeing rejiggering of formula, but it ends up an even more demanding challenge of mechanical mastery, as all tactigrog projects invariably become. It's a shame that the good ideas of the TC couldn't be realized with more elegance. But the existing elegance of XCOM is part of the problem that LW seeks to correct. It's not like you can't destroy cover anymore. It's just it's own thing instead of the single universal tactic of the game. Or you can flank, or set overwatch traps. If you don't like LW, no one is forcing you to play it, but it's kinda disturbing how all pervasive the making GBS threads on the mod is in this thread. "You're not allowed to like things I don't like!"
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Jan 20, 2017 05:38
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Basic Chunnel posted:The destruction fuckery gets to the heart of where LW2 lies in its philosophy - cover destruction is a cool mechanic that was both a source of fun mayhem and a tactical consideration in the original series, XCOM to a lesser extent, and XCOM2 to a greater extent. LW has always been about curtailing reliable tools and mechanics as "maladaptive tactics", as some grog put it earlier. The tragedy of LW is that on the surface it appears to be a creative, freeing rejiggering of formula, but it ends up an even more demanding challenge of mechanical mastery, as all tactigrog projects invariably become. It's a shame that the good ideas of the TC couldn't be realized with more elegance. But the existing elegance of XCOM is part of the problem that LW seeks to correct. You don't have to break every habit or undermine every tactic. Some of them are good because they're good, not because they're exploitative. Bremen posted:If you don't like LW, no one is forcing you to play it, but it's kinda disturbing how all pervasive the making GBS threads on the mod is in this thread. "You're not allowed to like things I don't like!"  " going on.
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Jan 20, 2017 05:50
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Oh man they even nerfed the bolt caster's aim. I wonder what they did to the axe, can only throw it within 10 tiles?
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Jan 20, 2017 05:52
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You have assaults and swords for you cover woes, use them. Also cover is still pretty destructible, but not every cover. Or if you want ridiculous cover deletion, bring the rocket dudes. E: boltcaster aim was nerfed in vanilla
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Jan 20, 2017 05:52
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So I liked the first mission, and I really like the addition of the ablative armor- between decent positioning and a good ambush, I was able to get out with no wounds on Veteran and felt pretty good about it. Now, however, I've got three infiltrations brewing, two with all rookies, and I'm getting quite worried how they're going to cope.
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Jan 20, 2017 05:55
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Also pro tip, you don't have to to do every mission.
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Jan 20, 2017 05:57
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Bholder posted:
...no? It's +15 in vanilla, +5 in LW2.
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Jan 20, 2017 05:59
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Bholder posted:Also pro tip, you don't have to to do every mission. Yes, but honestly I have no idea what rewards are most valuable at this point and want to see what different infiltration levels look like. At this point it's no trouble to restart if things go south.
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Jan 20, 2017 06:00
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Vib Rib posted:Perhaps not quite so extreme, but I think this really does touch on the core issue, which is that the LW devs seem to confuse exploits with basic tactics. Any good habit, smart tactic, or learned behavior is basically being worn at with the new mechanics as if they were cheaty exploits. I can understand wanting to downplay the bent towards "just bring all grenadiers every time", but at this rate it's a matter of time till they make flashbangs not break sectoid mindcontrol because people were doing that too much. How is saying the devs are wrong or saying that the mod is a "tragedy" any different from saying the people that enjoy those things are wrong? Like I said, if you don't like it, that's fine. But there's a difference between "I don't like LW because the cover changes don't appeal to me" and "LW is a terrible mod for grognards because you can't destroy cover anymore." If it were just a few that would be fine, but it seems like the whole thread is people coming into it just to complain about a mod they don't have to play. And you're completely wrong about why they did it, too. Grenadiers were literally considered the ultimate tactic in X-Com2. The game was all about cover destruction. Compare that to what you say about them nerfing flashbangs breaking mind control; that's not going to happen because that's a specific answer to a specific problem. Whereas grenades were literally the answer to everything. If every enemy in the game mind controlled you and winning was all about bringing flashbangs, then yeah, they'd probably get nerfed. Bremen fucked around with this message at 06:32 on Jan 20, 2017 |
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Jan 20, 2017 06:09
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Thanks for the info on where mission timers are stored, I gave a small tweak to that difficulty-wide setting just so I don't have to have as big of a loving anxiety attack with each mission's turn going to waste.
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Jan 20, 2017 06:09
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The idea of a LW2 thread's been bandied about already but we should at the least put the timer editing stuff in the OP, because it's going to be an endless deluge of those questions until an xpac comes out. Hell, I've already forgotten and I read it today
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Jan 20, 2017 06:13
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So I just got this game and the bad Avatar project is like 4 or 5 pips away from being full and I haven't even investigated the first black site yet, am I doing bad?
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Jan 20, 2017 06:40
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Internet Explorer posted:So I just got this game and the bad Avatar project is like 4 or 5 pips away from being full and I haven't even investigated the first black site yet, am I doing bad? not really. if it reaches the limit you get a timer that runs down til you lose, but if you do a black site it takes off pips from the counter. just make sure you know where black sites are and its basically never a problem. Roobanguy fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Jan 20, 2017 |
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Jan 20, 2017 06:41
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Things that are neat and cool: when you're doing a Very Difficult terror mission, you're already engaged with a group of ADVENT, and then a berserker all the way across the map steps in fire, starts burning, gets enraged, and then starts running towards your squad.
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Jan 20, 2017 06:43
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Node posted:Things that are neat and cool: when you're doing a Very Difficult terror mission, you're already engaged with a group of ADVENT, and then a berserker all the way across the map steps in fire, starts burning, gets enraged, and then starts running towards your squad. i have honestly never seen berserkers do anything in my playthroughs. they're ai always seemed bugged for me? they would just sit in the corner and never move while constantly enraging.
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Jan 20, 2017 06:44
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Exposure posted:Oh man they even nerfed the bolt caster's aim. I can understand why the alien hunter weapons were nerfed since previously it was stupid to not bring them on every mission, whereas now they are in that area of their use coming down to your playstyle. The biggest change I noticed going from EU LW to vanilla XCOM 2 was that in EU LW it was important to make sure every enemy was debuffed, or that your squad was protected with hunker/smoke, and XCOM 2 made utility items kind of pointless because it was more efficient and safer to just kill aliens ASAP. LW2 has gone back to the first style, which is better, but again something that doesn't work well with timers.
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Jan 20, 2017 06:49
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Roobanguy posted:i have honestly never seen berserkers do anything in my playthroughs. they're ai always seemed bugged for me? they would just sit in the corner and never move while constantly enraging. I've had them pummel me for eight damage before. RIP whoever that rookie was. But he was with two Mutons and they're coming to swarm me because the berserker somehow connected that the fire was the fault of six XCOM members all the way across the map.
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Jan 20, 2017 06:53
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Bremen posted:How is saying the devs are wrong or saying that the mod is a "tragedy" any different from saying the people that enjoy those things are wrong? Like I said, if you don't like it, that's fine. But there's a difference between "I don't like LW because the cover changes don't appeal to me" and "LW is a terrible mod for grognards because you can't destroy cover anymore." If it were just a few that would be fine, but it seems like the whole thread is people coming into it just to complain about a mod they don't have to play. And you don't have infuriate yourself with complaints that you don't have to read Bremen posted:And you're completely wrong about why they did it, too. Grenadiers were literally considered the ultimate tactic in X-Com2. The game was all about cover destruction. Compare that to what you say about them nerfing flashbangs breaking mind control; that's not going to happen because that's a specific answer to a specific problem. Whereas grenades were literally the answer to everything. If every enemy in the game mind controlled you and winning was all about bringing flashbangs, then yeah, they'd probably get nerfed. You are stuck in the same mentality that the Long War devs are stuck in. Rather than seeing the use of explosives as a necessity by players to minimize RNG, they see it as an obstacle to making the game more random and thus harder. They don't understand that taking away player agency in the game is actively unfun. Very few players like looking at a situation and seeing little to no options to significantly advance your position. Long War devs and yourself see it as "okay" if you use tactics to advance your position in an incremental fashion and tilt the RNG in your favor. If you do everything right, but the AI still scores that 20% chance hit and knocks out your elite operator, you guys see it as  . The vast majority of players see this as plain bullshit where there was little to nothing they could do to affect the outcome and to them it is incredibly frustrating.When you come out with a product that is incredibly frustrating, for what most people see needless random bullshit, people are going to speak their minds about it. Whats funny is that you seem to see this as some sort of personal attack on you and bend over backwards to defend ideas which actively take away player agency. No, they don't have to play the mod, but once players play it, they have a right to critique it. And no, you do not have the right be be in a public place and expect some sort of safe bubble to a product in which you have a strange personal and emotional attachment to.
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Jan 20, 2017 06:54
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Bremen posted:How is saying the devs are wrong or saying that the mod is a "tragedy" any different from saying the people that enjoy those things are wrong? Like I said, if you don't like it, that's fine. But there's a difference between "I don't like LW because the cover changes don't appeal to me" and "LW is a terrible mod for grognards because you can't destroy cover anymore." If it were just a few that would be fine, but it seems like the whole thread is people coming into it just to complain about a mod they don't have to play. I'm sorry we are insulting your waifu johnnylump
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Jan 20, 2017 06:57
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longwar 2 is fun and the cover destruction bullshit is super overblown. grenades still blow up cover decently, just not to the extent of destroying everything around them, which they still do when you get the grenadier perk that makes their grenades do more damage. people complaining about that poo poo with longwar 1 is also real stupid and the only people who talked about it were people who never actually played the game. grenades still blew up cover good in it, but you never had a situation where a sectoid shot your brick wall cover and somehow destroyed it. that was it. i also like how literally the op posted this poo poo THREAD RULES: - Talking about XCOM 1 is okay. - Talking about XCOM 1 mods (like Long War) is okay. - Talking about the technical aspects of modding XCOM 2 is okay. - Talking about OpenXCOM is okay. - Seriously, . We are all friends in the XCOM thread. - Please do not engage in zealotry either for or against your favorite or least favorite mod. - Just be a reasonable, level-headed adult. - So basically, no Junpeis. - If Coolguy is in your campaign and he dies be sure to post it to the thread I'm collecting my deaths. Video is preferred but an image with a funny epitaph is also good. like 4 pages ago and people still dont follow it.
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Jan 20, 2017 06:59
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Roobanguy posted:longwar 2 is fun and the cover destruction bullshit is super overblown. grenades still blow up cover decently, just not to the extent of destroying everything around them, which they still do when you get the grenadier perk that makes their grenades do more damage. Are you sure? I just watched a stream for a few hours and the closest a grenade ever got to blowing up cover was a potted tree (it blew up the tree but not the pot so it was still cover.)
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Jan 20, 2017 07:02
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monster on a stick posted:Are you sure? I just watched a stream for a few hours and the closest a grenade ever got to blowing up cover was a potted tree (it blew up the tree but not the pot so it was still cover.) i have blown up trees, boxes and all kinds of poo poo with grenades thrown by rookies. full cover definitely resists it a lot more, but half cover is still easily broken. also cars are still just explosive barrels, 1 grenade is all it takes to make it explode immediately.
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Jan 20, 2017 07:03
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Roobanguy posted:also cars are still just explosive barrels, 1 grenade is all it takes to make it explode immediately.
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Jan 20, 2017 07:08
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Basic Chunnel posted:I give that two patch cycles before it's changed Cool.
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Jan 20, 2017 07:10
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Roobanguy posted:also cars are still just explosive barrels, 1 grenade is all it takes to make it explode immediately. Didn't the Long War guys explicitly state that this would not be the case? Or am I going crazy? Assuming I'm not going nuts, if this IS still the case, they're either liars, or will be patching that quickly.
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Jan 20, 2017 07:12
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BlazetheInferno posted:Didn't the Long War guys explicitly state that this would not be the case? Or am I going crazy? i'd have to go and look where that was posted, but i bet what they meant was a car being shot by a rifle wouldn't cause it to catch on fire immediately like it did in vanilla. i did a convoy attack mission where one of the trucks i was hiding behind got hit multiple times by rifle fire and it was still right as rain, while one i hit with a rocket blew up. i'd have to see if thats the case for normal cars, but its ingrained in my mind by vanilla that cars are bad cover and will get your people killed.
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Jan 20, 2017 07:16
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Does the Shadow Chamber have any (immediate) ways of taking away progress of the Avatar Project? I'm one tick away, and I'm still in progress of contacting the resistance where facilities are. Actually, gently caress it, is there any way to cheese the game to slow down the project? The in-mission turn limits are fine, but I really don't like this bar above my head that tells you its almost game over. Yes, its going against the spirit of the whole guerilla war theme of the game, but I just don't care for it.
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Jan 20, 2017 07:23
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Earlier in the thread I pointed out that I didn't remember LW1 as being very divisive, and was informed that it was. Reading the last two pages, I'm starting to think that, if LW1 chat was anything like this, I might have just intentionally repressed it. Mod's pretty cool tho
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Jan 20, 2017 07:25
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^^^^longwar chat was very much like this in the last thread. its a real bummer tbh.Node posted:Does the Shadow Chamber have any (immediate) ways of taking away progress of the Avatar Project? I'm one tick away, and I'm still in progress of contacting the resistance where facilities are. i think there's console commands that you can use to lower the bar, and there's probably some mods out there that gets rid of them completely. e: yeah, found this https://www.reddit.com/r/Xcom/comments/44ioyc/xcom_2_console_commands/?st=iy58s4eo&sh=c727b7dc look for RemoveFortressDoom to see how to do it. you still will have to take on black sites though, but it should help alleviate the tension of them. Roobanguy fucked around with this message at 07:29 on Jan 20, 2017 |
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Jan 20, 2017 07:25
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Node posted:Does the Shadow Chamber have any (immediate) ways of taking away progress of the Avatar Project? I'm one tick away, and I'm still in progress of contacting the resistance where facilities are. Has the bar filled or have you hit the countdown? On normal difficulty, when all the boxes on the progress bar fill, it starts a countdown of a little over three weeks. Doing anything that slows the avatar project reverts the countdown to the bar (with however many empty spaces you gained from the mission). You have a lot more time than it initially appears
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Jan 20, 2017 07:30
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MikeC posted:You are stuck in the same mentality that the Long War devs are stuck in. Rather than seeing the use of explosives as a necessity by players to minimize RNG, they see it as an obstacle to making the game more random and thus harder. They don't understand that taking away player agency in the game is actively unfun. Very few players like looking at a situation and seeing little to no options to significantly advance your position. Long War devs and yourself see it as "okay" if you use tactics to advance your position in an incremental fashion and tilt the RNG in your favor. If you do everything right, but the AI still scores that 20% chance hit and knocks out your elite operator, you guys see it as Long War 1 was an incredibly popular mod, and LW2 looks set to follow in its footsteps. I'm sorry you feel challenged that other people are enjoying a mod you don't like.
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Jan 20, 2017 07:31
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Node posted:Does the Shadow Chamber have any (immediate) ways of taking away progress of the Avatar Project? I'm one tick away, and I'm still in progress of contacting the resistance where facilities are. You can let the bar fill completely, it just begins another countdown that depending on your difficulty, gives you another 1-4 weeks iirc
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Jan 20, 2017 07:34
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this gamer is gonna play the mod, and might even enjoy it. scared?
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Jan 20, 2017 07:34
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Away all Goats posted:You can let the bar fill completely, it just begins another countdown that depending on your difficulty, gives you another 1-4 weeks iirc Yeah, thanks. I hope this facility assault goes well. I just don't think I can keep enough relay comm facilities to have contact with every place on the planet, so I can swat away facilities that pop up. I'm guessing you can research a better relay comm facility at some point.
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Jan 20, 2017 07:37
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Luceid posted:this gamer is gonna play the mod, and might even enjoy it. scared? 
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Jan 20, 2017 07:37
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Node posted:Yeah, thanks. I hope this facility assault goes well. you can upgrade the comm facilities to hold 1 more engineer. i think e: apparently 2 fully upgraded comms with engineers/workshop drones is enough.
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Jan 20, 2017 07:38
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LW2 question: Is there any preference on new build order? So far I'm going with my standard practice but it looks like with everything that's changed, there might be higher priority on things like the AWC. It's really good to see fatigue gone, though, and I think adding it to Psi Troopers actually does help balance them a bit. Sunk potential XP was a downside originally but with this many soldiers to field I don't feel bad about it. Bremen posted:Long War 1 was an incredibly popular mod, and LW2 looks set to follow in its footsteps. I'm sorry you feel challenged that other people are enjoying a mod you don't like. Bremen posted:How is saying the devs are wrong or saying that the mod is a "tragedy" any different from saying the people that enjoy those things are wrong?
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Jan 20, 2017 07:39
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Node posted:Yeah, thanks. I hope this facility assault goes well. You can staff engineers in your relays to get some extra slots. If that isn't enough, you can spend supplies to upgrade them to get even more.
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Jan 20, 2017 07:40
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Vib Rib posted:LW2 question: Is there any preference on new build order? So far I'm going with my standard practice but it looks like with everything that's changed, there might be higher priority on things like the AWC. an awc is the first building i built. Even light injuries can make a guy have 10ish days of healing.
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Jan 20, 2017 07:42
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Roobanguy posted:you can upgrade the comm facilities to hold 1 more engineer. i think 3 fully upgraded comm facilities will allow full coverage?
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Jan 20, 2017 07:44
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