|
BattleMoose posted:South Africa was only able to relatively peacefully move to fully democratic elections in 1994 because the ANC was openly and publicly committed to peaceful coexistence with their oppressors. Without that commitment to peace, South Africa would have been engulfed in a brutal civil war (Rhodesia style) and I doubt I would be then be able to be typing this post had that happened. The progress to peace required years of negotiations and talks between F.W De Klerk and Nelson Mandela who both shared a vision of how they could coexist with each other, peacefully. This is not a moral judgement but simply an objective observation of what was required for South Africa to relatively peaceful move towards a democratic government. Yeah in case it wasn't obvious, I was leaving out a century's worth of context there. I think though that the peaceful approach by the ANC worked because White Africans realised what the alternative was. You can't win a race war as a minority while your state is under international ban and sanctions. The Israeli so far have had no such compulsion, so there has been no incentive for them to accept any peace overtures by the Palestinians. But I think that fact might finally be changing. Point about the anti-apatheid rebels was that you can't hold the Palestinians as a whole responsible for acts of violence by individuals or even organizations when they're the ones being oppressed in this dynamic. You can use it as an excuse when justifying your colonialism to the world, but absolutely nobody (who isn't already desperate for an excuse) is going to accept it as reason to build colonies on occupied land. Tearing up olive trees that've stood for centuries to build the Apartheid Wall doesn't have a justification, which is why we keep seeing all these bullshit excuses about agency and morality and recognition thrown about. It's an illegal land grab and it's going to remain as one, and the war will not end until they're either torn down, or every last Palestinian is disposessed and driven out. You make a wasteland and call it peace.
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2017 17:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 02:17 |
|
|
 "If Palestinians wanted peace, they wouldn't vote for terrorists, like the Hamas."*goes on to vote for a party created by members of the Irgun and the Lehi group*
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2017 18:24
|
|
|
I truly believe people who assert things like that know they're full of poo poo from the start which could explain why they melt away after they're challenged by anyone on the specifics.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2017 20:21
|
|
|
Cat Mattress posted:
It really should be "they wouldn't vote for groups established by terrorists, like the Fatah. goes on to vote for a party supporting racial cleansing".
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2017 21:46
|
|
|
GaussianCopula posted:The Palestinians could elect officials that are clearly committed to a peaceful resolution of the conflict, accept the existence of Israel without preconditions and condemn all acts of violence and persecute every individual supporting these acts of violence. Bullshit. Palestinians should elect officials that are committed to a peaceful resolution to the conflict (with the obvious reminder that whether they do this or not Israel's crimes against the Palestinians are still wrong) but the rest is wrong.. The existence of Israel shouldn't be accepted without pre-conditions, like "Israel exists only within the 1967 borders and it needs to stop ethnically cleansing us to try and stretch past these borders" which is an important proviso as half the reason "Israel's right to exist" is brought up is to conflate it's right to existence with a right to exist as Eretz Israel. Nor does it mean that they need to concern all acts of violence and persecute every individual supporting these acts of violence. I mean even putting aside how you persecute (did you mean prosecute) people who support acts of violence (Are you going to arrest people who express an opinion that an attack was justified) why would all acts of violence be condemned? Israel is an occupying power that for decades has been committing war crimes and human rights violations against the Palestinians - literally trying to ethnically cleanse them. There is no reason that attacks against legitimate military targets should be condemned. That doesn't mean attacks can't be condemned on a case-by-case basis for instance when directed towards civilians, but trying to strip Palestinians of any right of resistance and all violence should be condemned is absurd. The same strictures which applied in cases like Apartheid South Africa hold here. Attacking military targets is legitimate, a bomb which kills a load of civilians and one passing soldier is not and is a war crime.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2017 01:47
|
|
|
If anyone still cares or follows up on this, Activestills have posted an analysis of the videos from Umm al-Hiran, it supports the interpretation we've hinted at itt: https://vimeo.com/200221588 At the moment Israeli officials including the minister of police Gilad Ardan are still insisting that Alkayan was a terrorist with ties to Daesh and the Islamic Jihad, they're parading the officer's widow around to shriek about how her husband was a hero who was murdered by terrorists (she doesn't base her claims on any evidence, she claims that he wouldn't have allowed the officers to open fire on an innocent palestinian ergo they opened fire on a terrorist. It's really very stupid and cynical by whoever is feeding her information). I actually believe that the evidence is so conclusive in this case that the truth will inevitable come out sooner or later, but not before the Likud regime capitalizes on this incident fully. e: oh and with a text analysis of the video here: https://972mag.com/watch-visual-analysis-undermines-police-version-of-events-in-umm-el-hiran/124609/ emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 11:23 on Jan 20, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2017 11:16
|
|
|
For any Hebrew speakers here, Eishiton is back on Facebook and has some damming stuff about the Ben Deri incident from a whole back. This was the guy who had a live bullet 'sneak' into his rubber bullet magazine and killed a Palestinian from 80 meters in cold blood. He is supposed to be signing a deal with the prosecution today and will not be charged with murder.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2017 11:25
|
|
|
Miftan posted:For any Hebrew speakers here, Eishiton is back on Facebook and has some damming stuff about the Ben Deri incident from a whole back. This was the guy who had a live bullet 'sneak' into his rubber bullet magazine and killed a Palestinian from 80 meters in cold blood. He is supposed to be signing a deal with the prosecution today and will not be charged with murder. I've had Ben Deri's sister-in-law wish cancer upon my son when Eishton posted his original articles on the subject before their lawyer forced them to shut down all their social media accounts. Good times on Facebook I say.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2017 11:28
|
|
|
i am your cancerous son. feed me, mother. i have never been delivered.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2017 11:36
|
|
|
emanresu tnuocca posted:If anyone still cares or follows up on this, Activestills have posted an analysis of the videos from Umm al-Hiran, it supports the interpretation we've hinted at itt: Seems like a pretty clear cut case of police execution. Have Israeli media reported at all on this? Do they ever?
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2017 11:39
|
|
|
Friendly Humour posted:Seems like a pretty clear cut case of police execution. Have Israeli media reported at all on this? Do they ever? Everyone reports the official version, some media outlets mention the existence of a different version maintained by leftist activists and the residents of umm al-Hiran, haaretz were the only ones who actually mentioned that the documentation does not correlate with the police version.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2017 11:52
|
|
team overhead smash posted:Bullshit. The approach of trying to fight Israel, something the Palestinians and their Arab backers have tried since 1949 clearly isn't working for them and therefore they need to change their strategy, if they, the Palestinian leadership, want to better the situation of their people. In my opinion it would be better for the average Palestinian to accept that yes, you are not going to get East-Jerusalem (or any part of Jerusalem) and there will be no right of return and yes, it's not allowed to murder any Israelis, no matter whether they wear an IDF uniform or not and terrorist organisations like Hamas have to either radically change their program or be outlawed. At that point Israel would be forced to accept a two state solution, because all of their major demands are met and the Palestinians can start to actually build a real life for themselves without being permanent refugees or living in a war zone. The alternative is to continue this conflict for another 60 years.
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2017 12:17
|
|
|
GaussianCopula posted:The approach of trying to fight Israel, something the Palestinians and their Arab backers have tried since 1949 clearly isn't working for them and therefore they need to change their strategy, if they, the Palestinian leadership, want to better the situation of their people. In my opinion it would be better for the average Palestinian to accept that yes, you are not going to get East-Jerusalem (or any part of Jerusalem) and there will be no right of return and yes, it's not allowed to murder any Israelis, no matter whether they wear an IDF uniform or not and terrorist organisations like Hamas have to either radically change their program or be outlawed. At that point Israel would be forced to accept a two state solution, because all of their major demands are met and the Palestinians can start to actually build a real life for themselves without being permanent refugees or living in a war zone. What, pray tell is going to force Israel into doing anything? If the government in your mind is actually genuinely pursuing a two-state solution, where do the settlements/colonies fit into in your weird view of the world? Just a negotiating tactic, what?
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2017 12:22
|
|
|
It's gonna suck in general having trump as president but maybe it will be the push HAMAS terrorists need to start to understand that terrorism will never, ever work and they will never succeed in their aims. I hope that Israel has put them on notice that for the next four years their poo poo will not be tolerated at all. Like not tolerated with maximum force and America's blessing not tolerated.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2017 12:23
|
|
|
Yeah I can't wait to see Israel invade Gaza again and kill a few more thousand civilians.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2017 12:28
|
|
|
Trump and Putin are ironically much more likely to force Israel into determining its permanent borders than any previous administration ever did. A Sykes-Picot II is definitely on the cards.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2017 12:30
|
|
|
emanresu tnuocca posted:Everyone reports the official version, some media outlets mention the existence of a different version maintained by leftist activists and the residents of umm al-Hiran, haaretz were the only ones who actually mentioned that the documentation does not correlate with the police version. Israel sounds like a bit of a hosed up place. If the only journalists who seem to care about the police executing people and lying about it are people seen as the far-left, there's something rotten there. Do the police ever execute Jews? How does the media behave in cases where the victim isn't a Palestinian?
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2017 12:44
|
|
|
Friendly Humour posted:How does the media behave in cases where the victim isn't a Palestinian?
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2017 12:55
|
|
|
Friendly Humour posted:Israel sounds like a bit of a hosed up place. quote:If the only journalists who seem to care about the police executing people and lying about it are people seen as the far-left, there's something rotten there. Do the police ever execute Jews? How does the media behave in cases where the victim isn't a Palestinian? One of the things that is often ignored itt is the fact that Israel has always been a borderline orwellian dystopia, the government censorship laws and the strong ties between the various governmental PR agencies and journalists have always meant that the information being disseminated to the Israeli population is tightly controlled and impregnated with newspeak.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2017 13:26
|
|
|
The forcible construction of Israel on top of existing nations was a capitalist imperialist war crime hth
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2017 13:43
|
|
|
emanresu tnuocca posted:One of the things that is often ignored itt is the fact that Israel has always been a borderline orwellian dystopia, the government censorship laws and the strong ties between the various governmental PR agencies and journalists have always meant that the information being disseminated to the Israeli population is tightly controlled and impregnated with newspeak. corn in the bible posted:The forcible construction of Israel on top of existing nations was a capitalist imperialist war crime hth
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2017 13:43
|
|
|
It was also racist yes
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2017 13:50
|
|
|
Xander77 posted:You forgot racist, chauvinistic and transphobic. They were implied in those other two words, actually.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2017 13:59
|
|
|
hakimashou posted:It's gonna suck in general having trump as president but maybe it will be the push HAMAS terrorists need to start to understand that terrorism will never, ever work and they will never succeed in their aims. The existence of Israel is living proof that terrorism works.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2017 15:04
|
|
|
GaussianCopula posted:That's why I'm talking about elected officials. They didn't elect those guys for decades and yet they didn't live in peace. You are wrong.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2017 15:07
|
|
|
Orange Devil posted:They didn't elect those guys for decades and yet they didn't live in peace. You are wrong. They also elected those guys like eleven years ago, but I guess every Palestinian under the age of 29 has to keep paying for the sins of a plurality of their parents who voted for Hamas.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2017 15:33
|
|
|
Cat Mattress posted:The existence of Israel is living proof that terrorism works. There was something else to do with it wasn't there?
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2017 15:49
|
|
|
Cerebral Bore posted:They also elected those guys like eleven years ago, but I guess every Palestinian under the age of 29 has to keep paying for the sins of a plurality of their parents who voted for Hamas. They voted for Hamas for a reason: the PA was corrupt, ineffective, and was largely failing to demonstrate meaningful progress either domestically or diplomatically. Their star accomplishments, like the Oslo Accords, were largely failures that failed to attain the expected benefits due to Israeli failures to execute their end of the bargain in good faith, while Hamas claimed credit for the Gaza withdrawal which (at the time) was seen as a massive, nearly-unprecedented Israeli concession far beyond anything the PA had recently accomplished. Besides, while Hamas is best known for their terrorism, they also put a lot of money into social services and such (back when they had money, anyway) while the PA prefers to ensure loyalty by just directly bribing their supporters. It's tempting to look at the situation from an outsider's view and say "well, the only thing I know about Hamas is that they're terrorists, so clearly the only reason anyone voted for them was because they supported terror rather than peace", but the realities on the ground are more complicated than that, and the Palestinians considered more than just Israel policy when choosing their government - domestic issues within the Palestinian territories, while rarely covered internationally, played a significant role as well.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2017 15:55
|
|
|
Palestinians prefer Hamas to Fatah in much the same way as Americans prefer Trump to Clinton (in other words, not really at all). Polls constantly put Hamas below Fatah and, of course, did so 2003 as well, but whoever goes to vote wins, as Americans just realized. Even in Gaza Hamas scores lower than Fatah which itself is amazing because most Palestinians can't stand Fatah and Abbas even less.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2017 16:11
|
|
|
I haven't met a single Palestinian who has had anything positive to say about Fatah but I also haven't met a single Palestinian who would not vote for Fatah in an election either. The situation in Palestine is truly pathetic, sad and broken.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2017 16:14
|
|
|
hakimashou posted:There was something else to do with it wasn't there? get the gently caress out and never come back
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2017 16:53
|
|
|
Svartvit posted:Palestinians prefer Hamas to Fatah in much the same way as Americans prefer Trump to Clinton (in other words, not really at all). Polls constantly put Hamas below Fatah and, of course, did so 2003 as well, but whoever goes to vote wins, as Americans just realized. Even in Gaza Hamas scores lower than Fatah which itself is amazing because most Palestinians can't stand Fatah and Abbas even less. From what I've seen, at least since the last Gaza war, it's been a grass-is-greener situation - Palestinians in the West Bank tend to rate Hamas higher and Palestinians in Gaza tend to rate Fatah higher. In general, they loathe Fatah, but don't exactly have any good alternatives, particularly now that Hamas is in a much worse position than a decade ago.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2017 17:20
|
|
|
hakimashou posted:There was something else to do with it wasn't there? Israel is a state created by terrorists. Real terrorists, who are actually using terror as a weapon to achieve their aims. Terrorists who coldly plan and execute the total slaughter of entire villages to "send a message" to the Palestinians that they should abandon their ancestral land. Unrepentant terrorists, who are proud of their terrorist acts. Who build commemorative statues and issue medals honoring their terrorists.  Who said that? Muslims or Jews? quote:Neither [religious] ethics nor [religious] tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat. We are very far from having any moral qualms as far as our national war goes. We have before us the command of the [holy book], whose morality surpasses that of any other body of laws in the world: "Ye shall blot them out to the last man." Surprise, it's the founders of Israel! Proudly announcing their intent to go a total genocide in the name of God for the whole world to see and acknowledge!
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2017 19:33
|
|
|
Several news outlets have broke with news about al-Kiyan's autopsy report, there was a bullet wound to his right knee. Additionally, he actually didn't die on the spot following the second time he was shot and was left to bleed out with no treatment for 30 minutes outside his vehicle. I would speculate that the police already figured out they hosed up big time on the spot and intentionally let him bleed to death in a cover up attempt.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2017 20:56
|
|
|
Cat Mattress posted:Israel is a state created by terrorists. Real terrorists, who are actually using terror as a weapon to achieve their aims. Terrorists who coldly plan and execute the total slaughter of entire villages to "send a message" to the Palestinians that they should abandon their ancestral land. Unrepentant terrorists, who are proud of their terrorist acts. Who build commemorative statues and issue medals honoring their terrorists. Did you literally forget about the holocaust? Euro Israel haters and crazy Arabs might think "hmm maybe just one more time for Israel" but the Israelis will never let it happen again.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2017 22:20
|
|
|
hakimashou posted:Did you literally forget about the holocaust? The terrorist groups working to create Israel existed before the holocaust, and some of them even tried working with the Nazis.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2017 22:44
|
|
|
Cat Mattress posted:Israel is a state created by terrorists. Real terrorists, who are actually using terror as a weapon to achieve their aims. Terrorists who coldly plan and execute the total slaughter of entire villages to "send a message" to the Palestinians that they should abandon their ancestral land. Unrepentant terrorists, who are proud of their terrorist acts. Who build commemorative statues and issue medals honoring their terrorists. Yup, those sure were the founders of Israel.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2017 22:57
|
|
|
Xander77 posted:Are you talking about Lehi? The people who were literally shot at by the Jewish founders of Israel? The people who won 13 seats (out of 120) in the first national election? The people who were systematically ostracized from participation in the Israeli government and its benefits? The people who spent 30 years as a permanent opposition party before the socialists hosed up enough to let them into power? Lehi was allied with the Haganah for years up until the declaration of independence. Together with Irgun they formed the terrorist triforce that made Israel before Ben-Gurion backstabbed them and they dissolved.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2017 00:13
|
|
|
Someone in the british politics thread said that it seemed like 9/11 was a big factor in Irish terrorism ending. The sooner the palestinians learn the same lesson and get rid of filth like HAMAS the better things will be for them.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2017 00:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 02:17 |
|
|
Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir weren't nobodies. And before their political carriers, they weren't relegated to tending to cabbages in a kibbutz: Shamir was a high-ranking member of the Mossad starting in 1955. (He then left when he was told to stop murdering people.) And nowadays there's a Lehi ribbon issued by the State of Israel for former members of the terrorist organization to proudly wear. Besides if your argument is that they're irrelevant to the nation's history because they had to wait a bit before being in power, it's quite a weak rebuttal.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2017 00:28
|
|