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For all the deserved mocking that Japanese firearm design gets, they managed to do something very uniquely clever with hand grenades. During the 1930s they decided to redesign all their grenades so they could be thrown or fired from a small mortar that was issued out to either squad or platoon level. This meant that every squad/platoon had their own artillery support, albeit in a very limited form. It worked wonders for them early in the war because defenders suddenly had explosives falling on them while they were fighting what they took for just lightly-armed infantry. These grenade launchers worked for the Japanese even after they fell into allied hands, because American intelligence hosed up the translation of their name, calling them "Knee Mortars". Marines and G.I.s who captured them assumed that meant they were fired by bracing them against their upper legs. It took dozens of shattered thighs until a correction was issued. They were called "Knee Mortars" because they were carried strapped to the knee when not in combat.
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Jan 20, 2017 03:24
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When combined with the translation, the curved baseplate makes it easy to see how the confusion arose:
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Jan 20, 2017 04:18
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The Krengel Diary Part 5 Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 Part 4 1941 10 April: We are being transported on captured trucks now and go around Tobruk to the south. Our target is either Bardia or Sollum. Long-range artillery from Tobruk targets our advance. Karl Blum is severely wounded by artillery shrapnel. We can't stop and tend to him during the drive so we just do what we can for him. We call a halt well south of Tobruk to avoid their artillery. 11 April: Today is Good Friday and we have a few hours rest but the British have no intention of leaving us alone. We have 6 air raids with both bombers and fighter-bombers so we decide to move out at 2 PM. Two battle groups move out in the direction of Tobruk, under fighter-bomber attack. Two men, Schaeffer and Elden, are wounded. We arrive at the outskirts of Tobruk at midnight but orders come in to not attack and instead to move under darkness towards Bardia. 12 April: 1st Platoon on reconnaissance to Bardia; another ghibly storm and terribly high temperatures. We have no water except the reserve for our vehicles. Our company should catch up with us tonight. 13 April: Today is Easter Sunday and the British bombers arrive to bring us Easter eggs in the form of bombs; not much water or food today. What a Happy Easter. Finally, our Motorcycle Unit arrives. 14 April: We stay where we are but have several air attacks and our flak guns have no ammunition. We leave at 5 PM, travel 4 miles to the east, and find a wadi [ravine] to set up tents in. The wadi is marked on our maps as the "Valley of Peace." Ha ha ha. 15 April: We have several British attacks by air; Corporal Lange is wounded. One platoon is sent to an improvised airfield to mark a landing strip. We camouflage our trucks. The British attack Sollum and simultaneously attempt a breakout from Tobruk - without success. We hear that our commander [1st Lt. Behr] will be the first German in Africa to receive the Knight's Cross [awarded 15 May, 1941]. We secure Sollum airfield and place AT guns around the perimeter. 17 April: We return to our camp at the Valley of Peace; motorcycle units at last bring us plenty of water. During the night of the 18th, we are bombarded by super heavy (380mm) artillery; probably from British battleships offshore. A radio message arrives; Yugoslavia has capitulated. 20 April: An alarm comes at 1:30 AM; British seaborne troops have landed at Bardia; our 1st and 2nd Platoons form a security screen. 3rd and 4th Platoons with flak move out to Bardia. They return with 60 POW's. In the evening, we assembly to congratulate our Fuhrer on his birthday. Sepp Ziegler is promoted to Sergeant. The Iron Cross 1st Class is awarded to Lts. Napp and Wangemann and to SSgt. Gunther. My friend Eric Wolff receives the Iron Cross 2nd Class. This is almost certainly this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardia_raid 24 April: We attack British positions at Sollum, but we are beaten back by heavy fire from British battleships and cruisers offshore. On 24 April at 7 PM, we retreat. 25 April: This is a black day for us of the 3rd Platoon. As we marched along Via Balbia, with some men riding on trucks, we were attacked by our own Luftwaffe, one heavy bomb exploded next to a truck, killing: Pvt. Otto Volskow Pvt. Walther Braun Pvt. Josef Schmidt Pvt. Johann Scmid Sgt. Ziegler Sgt. Kurt Lange and wounding: Gunthmann, Mihl, Rieck, Roschka, and Sgt. Lirka. 1st Platoon was detailed for burial and we buried them along Via Balbia between Ft. Capuzzo and Bardia. 26 April: At 1 PM we are told of a new operation. code named "Wendepunkt" [Turning Point] that is supposed to dislodge enemy artillery from Hill 206. We overrun the battery and 1st Lt. Behr, who commanded the operation gets mentioned in General Rommel's report.
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Jan 20, 2017 06:56
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chitoryu12 posted:Italian machine gunes This, and the Italian tanks post, was a lot of fun to read. Anyone else wanting to bag on terribly designed weapons/vehicles, please do.
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Jan 20, 2017 07:13
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chitoryu12 posted:It used a strip like the old Hotchkiss or Benet-Mercie guns. It would remove a cartridge to load into the chamber, but then it would reinsert the spent casing into the strip instead of ejecting it I can only assume the casings had "RETURN TO QUARTERMASTER FOR REFUND" stamped on the bottom or something.
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Jan 20, 2017 08:52
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Here's some neat vids of Italian machine guns that goes into great detail. The guy even has the loading tool for the Breda Model 37! Italian Breda M37 HMG: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWesu9pA6Ro Italian Breda M30 LMG: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-D3nN4QycM DookieSandwich fucked around with this message at 09:42 on Jan 20, 2017 |
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Jan 20, 2017 09:22
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Alchenar posted:Italian interwar tanks were perfectly comparable to those of everyone else, they just couldn't keep pace. I would disagree and point to Jobbo_Fett's post earlier. They were fine in the early 30s, but by the time the Spanish Civil War rolled around they were...not great, even by the standards of the time.
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Jan 20, 2017 13:54
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feedmegin posted:I would disagree and point to Jobbo_Fett's post earlier. They were fine in the early 30s, but by the time the Spanish Civil War rolled around they were...not great, even by the standards of the time. The real problem was that Italy began a very early rearmament program and didn't have the industrial base to churn out L3/33s and Fiat CR.32s at the same time they developed and placed more modern models in to production. If WW2 kicks in 1936, Italy probably has some of the better equipment of the war for the first couple years, just because it's competitive enough and they've produced a lot of it.
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Jan 20, 2017 14:16
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USMC_Karl posted:This, and the Italian tanks post, was a lot of fun to read. Anyone else wanting to bag on terribly designed weapons/vehicles, please do. Jobbo and Cyrano talked a bit about the Japanese Type 11 machine gun. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwi-3pSFKGc The idea is that it uses the exact same stripper clips the riflemen are issued to ease logistics and allow riflemen to supply the machine gun in an emergency. The hopper is filled with stacked, horizontally oriented clips that the weapon feeds from one clip at a time. The empty clip gets dropped out the bottom to let the next fall into place. They immediately started having problems because the mechanism wasn't strong enough to handle full powered 6.5mm Arisaka ammo, so they had to undo their own logistics shortcut by issuing special clips with less powerful ammo just for machine gunners. Also the obvious problem with the gun being unbalanced.
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Jan 20, 2017 14:35
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feedmegin posted:I would disagree and point to Jobbo_Fett's post earlier. They were fine in the early 30s, but by the time the Spanish Civil War rolled around they were...not great, even by the standards of the time. 'Armed with machine guns and 20mm cannon' is not much of a criticism when the Germans are pottering about with Pz1 and Pz2's. They're not fantastic tanks and were massively outclassed by the start of WW2, but in the Spanish Civil War they were perfectly serviceable (if demonstrating that the Tankette theory was a dead end) and fit squarely into the 'a tank is better than no tank' bracket where you wouldn't turn one down.
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Jan 20, 2017 14:40
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I've read accounts of the Germans using pz 1s against partisans late in the war. If the other dude doesn't have armor or effective AT even that is a real advantage.
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Jan 20, 2017 14:59
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Cyrano4747 posted:I've read accounts of the Germans using pz 1s against partisans late in the war. If the other dude doesn't have armor or effective AT even that is a real advantage. Most of the Italian light tanks ended up in the Balkans in anti-partisan warfare, too.
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Jan 20, 2017 15:15
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TerminalSaint posted:When combined with the translation, the curved baseplate makes it easy to see how the confusion arose: It is a bit funny and scary at the time nobody thought about the results of bracing an explosive launching device against your very fragile and fleshy soft limbs and how it might not be the best of ideas to begin with. Also, if we're talking about awkward gun design for armies somebody should cover the time where the British Army attempted to replace the Bren gun in the Cold War.
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Jan 20, 2017 15:27
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SeanBeansShako posted:It is a bit funny and scary at the time nobody thought about the results of bracing an explosive launching device against your very fragile and fleshy soft limbs and how it might not be the best of ideas to begin with. dude why would it be called a knee mortar if you aren't supposed to shoot it from your knee? 
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Jan 20, 2017 15:55
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Thanks everyone for the 30s tech answers!
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Jan 20, 2017 15:57
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Cyrano4747 posted:I've read accounts of the Germans using pz 1s against partisans late in the war. If the other dude doesn't have armor or effective AT even that is a real advantage. KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Most of the Italian light tanks ended up in the Balkans in anti-partisan warfare, too. Didn't Allied troops use some real clunkers on Crete against the German airborne troops?
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Jan 20, 2017 16:00
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Hogge Wild posted:Didn't Allied troops use some real clunkers on Crete against the German airborne troops? Mk. VI light tanks, which were MG-armed only.
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Jan 20, 2017 16:08
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:dude why would it be called a knee mortar if you aren't supposed to shoot it from your knee? I wonder if they would have done it if the Japanese soldier carried them attached closer to their rear end or groin before using them? Also, I'd be wrong to leave this out: Bum Mortar.
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Jan 20, 2017 16:10
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:For all the deserved mocking that Japanese firearm design gets, they managed to do something very uniquely clever with hand grenades. During the 1930s they decided to redesign all their grenades so they could be thrown or fired from a small mortar that was issued out to either squad or platoon level. This meant that every squad/platoon had their own artillery support, albeit in a very limited form. It worked wonders for them early in the war because defenders suddenly had explosives falling on them while they were fighting what they took for just lightly-armed infantry. Why would it take more than one shattered thigh to learn this?
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Jan 20, 2017 16:23
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Mk. VI light tanks, which were MG-armed only. How did they fare?
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Jan 20, 2017 16:24
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Ainsley McTree posted:Why would it take more than one shattered thigh to learn this? have you seen an army
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Jan 20, 2017 16:26
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Ainsley McTree posted:Why would it take more than one shattered thigh to learn this? Marines are issued two femurs each so
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Jan 20, 2017 16:28
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Hogge Wild posted:Didn't Allied troops use some real clunkers on Crete against the German airborne troops? Everyone had clunkers. The aforementioned Light Tank MkVI was the backbone of the British armoured force. Most French tanks still used the same short 37 mm cannon the Renault FT used, which had lower penetration than some machineguns. The majority of the American tank fleet by the start of WWII was also only armed with machineguns.
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Jan 20, 2017 16:37
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Someone in Lazyfire's Battlefield 1 LP thread posted the behind the scenes recording of German multiplayer voices. It's pretty hilarious. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukmL-fznF2U
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Jan 20, 2017 16:41
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Hogge Wild posted:How did they fare? Most were dug in as fixed gun emplacements - I couldn't find much in cursory searches.
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Jan 20, 2017 16:43
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The best thing about video is the first thing that you see is a German voice actor screaming FORRRRRRRVERRRRRTZ! at the top of his lungs. Then it ends with somebody riding somebodies back with a horse. Throw in some booze and it just a typical pub lunch with Germans.
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Jan 20, 2017 16:47
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ZOMG check it out it's Arya's other fake dad https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU39uq7hj9I
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Jan 20, 2017 17:10
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USMC_Karl posted:This, and the Italian tanks post, was a lot of fun to read. Anyone else wanting to bag on terribly designed weapons/vehicles, please do. I agree. For some reason bad design is really fun. One of my favorites is the Dreyse Needle Gun. It wasn't bad design so much as was a very early design, the first breech-loader to use a bolt action and adopted in 1841. It was called a needle gun because it used paper cartridges where the primer rested at the base of the bullet. The firing pin was very long and needle-like because it had to pierce all the way through the paper cartridge containing the powder and strike the primer. On firing, the paper cartridge followed the bullet out the barrel. The design was revolutionary because it allowed a soldier to fire much more rapidly than a muzzle-loaded rifle, and do so from a prone position. However, there were some technical shortcomings. The long firing pin was prone to damage and had to be replaced frequently. The paper cartridge did not expand to seal in gases, and the breech seal was frequently leaky, which often caused expanding gases to escape through the breach during firing. Since this was still the black powder era, the weapon fouled quickly. Fouling also contributed to the issues with the incomplete breach seal. Bearing in mind how a rifle is held for aimed fire, the Dreyse tended to spray soldiers in the face and eyes with hot gas, and it did so more often the longer and more intense the combat became. If the fight was not resolved relatively quickly, soldiers resorted to firing from the hip instead of aiming. Again, this is a weapon that was arguably ahead of its time and definitely an important and influential step in 19th century firearms design. But I think the flaws are still interesting, even if they result more from technical issues as a transitional weapon, instead of weird and ill-advised procurement decisions.
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Jan 20, 2017 17:16
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I like to think the gas problem with the needle gun is the reason why there was so much crazy facial hair in the mid 19th century Prussian army.
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Jan 20, 2017 17:33
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:
This is a military UL. We're not sure why they were called knee mortars, it might have been how they were packed in a bag that was secured to your leg and *that* could be translated as a knee bag for a mortar. And it's doubtful that any Marine who had ever fired a rifle grenade would look at the size of a Type 89 projectile and try to fire it bracing it against his leg.
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Jan 20, 2017 17:59
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Seems like, if nothing else, trying to aim a mortar while balancing it on your leg would be...imprecise? Isn't aiming a mortar something that involves math, and dials, and maybe grid locations? Or are mortars generally used for engagements that are close-range enough that you can kind of eyeball it?
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Jan 20, 2017 18:06
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Ainsley McTree posted:Seems like, if nothing else, trying to aim a mortar while balancing it on your leg would be...imprecise? Isn't aiming a mortar something that involves math, and dials, and maybe grid locations? Or are mortars generally used for engagements that are close-range enough that you can kind of eyeball it? That mortar may not have been fired balanced on your leg, but it was meant for relatively short-range work to provide immediate fire support for units. You slid a spacer to change the effective barrel length and thus reduce range, allowing you to change the point of impact forward and back without needing to change the angle of the barrel. This let you fire it through very narrow openings in the jungle canopy or holes in a roof while holding the mortar at a fixed angle and still be able to adjust your fire. Since it used a lanyard to fire it could also be wedged between tree branches or debris and used as a direct fire weapon in an emergency.
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Jan 20, 2017 18:09
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Ainsley McTree posted:Seems like, if nothing else, trying to aim a mortar while balancing it on your leg would be...imprecise? Isn't aiming a mortar something that involves math, and dials, and maybe grid locations? Or are mortars generally used for engagements that are close-range enough that you can kind of eyeball it? Smaller caliber mortars are often eyeballed and essentially a line of sight weapon. Ie the 60mm mortar is the smallest used by the US and you can use it with the baseplate and careful calculations or in "assault" mode aka drop it down and brace it by simply holding it for hasty shots and keeping up with a moving attack
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Jan 20, 2017 19:04
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chitoryu12 posted:Someone in Lazyfire's Battlefield 1 LP thread posted the behind the scenes recording of German multiplayer voices. It's pretty hilarious. It's... weird to think that there's an entire nation of people who can do videogame-bad-guy voices whenever they want to. At least I assume I'm looking at a relatively representative sample of German accents there, I suppose I could be listening to a room full of people from the German equivalent of Somerset. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Jan 20, 2017 |
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Jan 20, 2017 19:50
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Ainsley McTree posted:Seems like, if nothing else, trying to aim a mortar while balancing it on your leg would be...imprecise? Isn't aiming a mortar something that involves math, and dials, and maybe grid locations? Or are mortars generally used for engagements that are close-range enough that you can kind of eyeball it? In Japanese it was called a Grenade Discharger and was basically just a way to lob grenades in indirect fire. It was not very accurate and did not have sights. It had a gas regulator that could adjust approximately for range when held at the correct angle.
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Jan 20, 2017 19:53
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OwlFancier posted:It's... weird to think that there's an entire nation of people who can do videogame-bad-guy voices whenever they want to. So long as the question out there, do all Austrians sound like Arnold Schwarzenegger?
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Jan 20, 2017 19:58
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The Krengel Diary Part 6 Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 Part 4 Part 5 1941 27 April: We secure Hill 206 with PaK, flak and patrols. The British attempt to filter into our positions but they fail. 29 April: Hill 206 is quiet until 4 PM when a Hurricane shows up to view our positions. We dig ourselves some holes for cover and watch the Tommies do the same thing in the distance. At 5 PM, the expected heavy artillery barrage on our position comes. There are several dead and wounded at the flak pit; one gun receives a direct hit and is totally destroyed. Lt. Napp is wounded; we retreat to Fort Capuzzo, where there are Panzer and assault gun reinforcements. We eventually return to the Valley of Peace. 30 April: Hill 206 is retaken by the Panzer Division and we have a bath in the harbor at Bardia. On May 3rd we are still in Bardia and on May 4th we listen to a speech given by our Fuhrer. We run our trucks around Sollum to stir up dust and make the British believe that we are getting reinforcements. On 6 May we get many false alarms that lead to unplanned night exercises. 7 May: A hunt for desert rats is in progress in our camp. At 5 PM we move out from Hill 206. We encounter the wire fence that divides Libya from Egypt and runs for hundreds of miles from the seashore to the Sahara Desert. We run into an ambush but manage to fight our way out. Eric has a high fever and gets transported back to the aid station. AA guns pass us on the way to Sollum. We stop for the night by the wire fence. 9 May: Ghibli again - and very hot. Ten men have been ordered to fetch POW's from the front. Thermometer shows 47 degrees Celsius. During the sandstorm a British artillery battery cruises into our lines; we capture the surprised unit and add four more guns to our arsenal - brand new 87mm's. Eric has returned and is fit again. On 11 May we undertake a short reconnaissance and engage a British Hussar unit but no one inflicts or sustains any damage. 12 May: During the night, we pursue the enemy with Panzers, half tracks and mobile artillery. 3rd Platoon has a truch breakdown; we take him in tow and turn around and go back to Bardia. Later Lt. Napp turns up with a broken axle on his Volkswagen Jeep. 13 May: Rumors are being circulated that our Deputy Fuhrer Rudolf Hess has fled to England, but these are only rumors. We're camped in another wadi; I've been in Africa 3 months now. 15 May: Heavy artillery fire is heard in the direction of Capuzzo. British tanks attack along the highway from Capuzzo to Sollum. One of our motorcycle units is reported missing. We're on alert but are relieved at noon by an Italian unit. We break camp in the evening and set off for Tobruk at 11 PM. 16 May: British tank attack on Bardia; we counterattack and Tommie retreats. We return to the Valley of Peace and find things the same as before when we were here. We do have on surprise, however; the very first German Bf-109 fighters in the sky above us. 17 May: The Knight's Cross was indeed awarded to our Company Commander, 1st Lt. Behr. We are all very proud of him. 19 May: Ready to move out to Sidi Azeiz, since we have been relieved by an infantry battalion. At 1 AM we pack up and march off; we look like a gypsy caravan. We arrive at Sidi Azeiz late in the afternoon and set up camp. We are not far from Bardia, where we have to go for fresh drinking water and baths in the sea. 21 May: We're attacked by 5 Vickers Wellington bombers at 8:30 AM and about 20 bombs fall on our position. Werner Kubling and Heinz Georg were killed by a direct hit on their foxhole. Eric, Gille, Raff, and Flamy are wounded. Our flak has 3 dead. We bury our comrades at 6 PM north of the road. Hans has to drive the command car now that Werner is dead.
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Jan 20, 2017 20:08
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At some point I'll get around to transcribing a British Boer War soldiers experiences I swear!
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Jan 20, 2017 20:09
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OwlFancier posted:It's... weird to think that there's an entire nation of people who can do videogame-bad-guy voices whenever they want to. See also, certain parts of England
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Jan 20, 2017 20:11
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Never stop posting that diary.
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Jan 20, 2017 20:16
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