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It's not like the new right understands that if you ditch the boots and braces for suits and ties and mind your language you suddenly find that its easier to find a platform for "discourse" outside of grubby photocopied screeds distributed in a pub. Its a presentation tactic
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Jan 21, 2017 05:06
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One big problem with the "Bash the Fash" argument is that right now the Trumpers are going to be looking for reasons to excuse a crackdown -- reichstag fire etc. You can make the counterargument that they'll do that anyway, and hell, James O'Keefe was documented and caught planning to incite violence at the inauguration: but let's not give them what they want. Personally I see the next few years as necessitating a fabian strategy: deter, delay, distract, defend. We have very little power right now and anything we do is going to be met with horrific reprisals -- we've already seen proposals to literally make it legal to run over and murder protestors who happen to be blocking roads, for example. Cold-cocking Richard Spencer is cathartic but long term they're gonna catch the guy who did it and his life is going to be ruined by an assault charge and in the end he'll owe Spenser money (just like the Fred Phelps church was supported by assault lawsuits).
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Jan 21, 2017 05:06
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Absurd Alhazred posted:They can be defeated by many different tools, depending on the situation. Even if it calls for violence, it shouldn't be lauded, lest people get a taste for it. If the people get a taste for violence against their oppressors horrible things could happen. Like actually pushing back against the capitalist class!
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Jan 21, 2017 05:06
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i got a rereg cert for the second time and all i got for it was a bunch of dumb aa posts
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Jan 21, 2017 05:06
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Chelb posted:i got a rereg cert for the second time and all i got for it was a bunch of dumb aa posts You're welcome.
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Jan 21, 2017 05:09
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If the nazi dies they can't sue
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Jan 21, 2017 05:09
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esto es malo posted:If the nazi dies they can't sue Ah, yeah, the "it's a Nazi so the state will go 'welp' and move on" strategy.
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Jan 21, 2017 05:11
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Really how can you look at this and think anything other than "a good start"? It literally doesn't make sense to me. The punks have got this poo poo figured out, neonazis find it much harder to recruit when every time they gather they get beat up. It's a useful form of preventative tactics.
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Jan 21, 2017 05:11
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Personally I see the next few years as necessitating a fabian strategy: deter, delay, distract, defend. We have very little power right now and anything we do is going to be met with horrific reprisals -- we've already seen proposals to literally make it legal to run over and murder protestors who happen to be blocking roads, for example. Oh, it gets worse than that. Lethal force for any gathering of 10 or more! This isn't to say that I believe that violence should be anything other than last resort, but I take contention that I'm supposed to see an honest-to-God Nazi get punched in the face and NOT laugh at the motherfucker.
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Jan 21, 2017 05:11
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Bad manners are the greatest crime
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Jan 21, 2017 05:12
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The ideology eater posted:Really how can you look at this and think anything other than "a good start"? It literally doesn't make sense to me. I don't dehumanize my enemies, that's how.
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Jan 21, 2017 05:12
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Tesseraction posted:This isn't to say that I believe that violence should be anything other than last resort, but I take contention that I'm supposed to see an honest-to-God Nazi get punched in the face and NOT laugh at the motherfucker. Pretty much this Absurd Alhazred posted:I don't dehumanize my enemies, that's how. Could you be more sanctimonious.
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Jan 21, 2017 05:13
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If anything thinking that a decent beating has a chance of turning a nazi around is humanizing my enemies
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Jan 21, 2017 05:13
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Hello, 911? I have been trolled. The trolling is occurring as we speak.
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Jan 21, 2017 05:13
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I don't dehumanize my enemies, that's how.  i reiterate, won't somebody please think of the white supremacists??? you coward
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Jan 21, 2017 05:13
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imo the ends do in fact justify the means
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Jan 21, 2017 05:15
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stone cold posted:
Yeah, it was really brave to sucker-punch that neo-nazi while he was distracted and then running away.
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Jan 21, 2017 05:16
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Yeah, it was really brave to sucker-punch that neo-nazi while he was distracted and then running away. lol keep sticking up for the fascists duder
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Jan 21, 2017 05:16
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teleological > deontological
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Jan 21, 2017 05:17
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I don't dehumanize my enemies, that's how. nazis aren't people
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Jan 21, 2017 05:17
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Yeah, it was really brave to sucker-punch that neo-nazi while he was distracted and then running away. If SFT was here, she'd say 'I'd have literally torn his dick off.'
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Jan 21, 2017 05:17
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So what's the alternative to dehumanizing white supremacists? Humanizing them? I don't particularly care for violence as a tactic but I'm skeptical that non-violent activism and protests are the only effective or right ways of confronting bigotry
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Jan 21, 2017 05:19
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Tesseraction posted:Oh, it gets worse than that. Lethal force for any gathering of 10 or more! Oh it's funny as poo poo. Should've happened to him twenty years ago. I like how it's with the elbow, too, that's a hard hit, not some weak slap or wrist-punch. And it's a drat sight better than breaking windows in a starbucks. But as cathartic as it might feel in the short term -- and we need catharsis right now! -- but long term it's still probably a bad move and more likely to hurt than to help. Even now. Not because violence can't work but rather because violence is a game that the fascists will win because the fascists now control the State and there's never gonna be a DoJ investigation if they kill you with a "rough ride". poo poo like this is the sort of thing right-wingers are going to use to justify the next round of restrictions on speech and protest, and we need speech and protest badly right now. The only real power we have right now is the power to distract with protest and delay in the senate. Fortunately Trump is easily distracted, and fortunately the filibuster still exists for the moment. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 05:22 on Jan 21, 2017 |
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Jan 21, 2017 05:19
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If they're violent, you protect yourself. If they're plotting violence, literally, not "this is the logical conclusion of their ideology", you expose those plans and get them RICO'ed. Otherwise you keep an eye on them and try to make sure they don't sway or intimidate others.
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Jan 21, 2017 05:20
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Absurd Alhazred posted:If they're violent, you protect yourself. If they're plotting violence, literally, not "this is the logical conclusion of their ideology", you expose those plans and get them RICO'ed. Otherwise you keep an eye on them and try to make sure they don't sway or intimidate others. that worked wonders with the FN
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Jan 21, 2017 05:20
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My tactic for stopping the spread of far right ideology is to stop it by stopping it from spreading by stopping it
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Jan 21, 2017 05:21
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also aa, punching nazis is a long american tradition: https://twitter.com/GerryDuggan/status/822603492321796097
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Jan 21, 2017 05:22
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I do find it telling that you referred to it as snuff at the beginning. I assume that you know the nazi isn't dead right? So why would you even say that? If video turns up of a neonazi meeting being mowed down then we can have that conversation but you went into this conversation from the very beginning exaggerating the harm to the nazi. You are doing more work to empathize with the literal neonazi than the people who feel a sense of empowerment from seeing somebody standing up to them.
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Jan 21, 2017 05:22
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Absurd Alhazred posted:If they're violent, you protect yourself. If they're plotting violence, literally, not "this is the logical conclusion of their ideology", you expose those plans and get them RICO'ed. Otherwise you keep an eye on them and try to make sure they don't sway or intimidate others. lol, did you really say "get the nazis rico'd" when nazi in chief steve bannon is running the show
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Jan 21, 2017 05:23
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The ideology eater posted:I do find it telling that you referred to it as snuff at the beginning. I assume that you know the nazi isn't dead right? So why would you even say that? If video turns up of a neonazi meeting being mowed down then we can have that conversation but you went into this conversation from the very beginning exaggerating the harm to the nazi. You are doing more work to empathize with the literal neonazi than the people who feel a sense of empowerment from seeing somebody standing up to them. I'm sorry for misusing the term "snuff".
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Jan 21, 2017 05:23
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Absurd Alhazred posted:If they're violent, you protect yourself. If they're plotting violence, literally, not "this is the logical conclusion of their ideology", you expose those plans and get them RICO'ed. Otherwise you keep an eye on them and try to make sure they don't sway or intimidate others. Waiting for the metaphorical knife to be at your neck to defend yourself is just foolish.
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Jan 21, 2017 05:24
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That man wants you and me dead. I'm sure he'll remember you were kind when they come for you
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Jan 21, 2017 05:24
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Yeah, it was really brave to sucker-punch that neo-nazi while he was distracted and then running away. Nazis are proud of their refusal to reason or respect the humanity of others. They won't play by the rules of liberal democracy. How do you propose we deal with them? It's not like the guy was even trying to kill or maim him. It was merely a symbolic castration, and productively timed to expose his humiliation across mass media.
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Jan 21, 2017 05:25
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Reminder: literal terrorism and killing whitey worked in South Africa please don't buy into the whitewashing of Mandela Or MLK
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Jan 21, 2017 05:25
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:also aa, punching nazis is a long american tradition: Of course, we also shielded Nazi scientists from prosecution under "Operation Paperclip", so America tends to give mixed signals on their tolerance for goosesteppers.
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Jan 21, 2017 05:26
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visceril posted:That man wants you and me dead. I'm not doing it for his feelings or for him to remember I was kind. There are values and principles that go towards what a democratic society is. Anyway, I'm done with this stupid conversation, which reminds me why I wanted to quit D&D before I got modded. This being a parting shot, I'm expecting a probation, my first in more than a year, any time now.  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 21, 2017 05:27
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:poo poo like this is the sort of thing right-wingers are going to use to justify the next round of restrictions on speech and protest, and we need speech and protest badly right now. Oh I agree, and the Republicans will look for any excuse. Sad thing is we've seen that scumbags like O'Keefe are literally willing to manufacture excuses for it. It's why I feel any crackdowns that will come, will come regardless of the behaviour of actual antifa.
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Jan 21, 2017 05:28
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Jack Gladney posted:Nazis are proud of their refusal to reason or respect the humanity of others. They won't play by the rules of liberal democracy. How do you propose we deal with them? Yeah, I think there's a lot to be said regarding the resurgence of right-ist political groups around the world, and how the left is unable to effectively counter ideologies based around hate because of ideals such as universal compassion, non-violence, and respect towards those of opposing views, even if those views are abhorrent
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Jan 21, 2017 05:28
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I'm not doing it for his feelings or for him to remember I was kind. There are values and principles that go towards what a democratic society is. 
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Jan 21, 2017 05:29
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Absurd Alhazred posted:This being a parting shot, I'm expecting a probation, my first in more than a year, any time now. lol
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Jan 21, 2017 05:29
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