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botany posted:what the gently caress Libluini posted:
When that article first came out I asked my girlfriend if she had any inkling of such things and she was like yup, that's why I have a female doctor. I was floored. That, gentlemen, is male privilege. I get to go to the doctor and don't ever once think, gee, I hope my doctor doesn't rape me this time.
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Jan 21, 2017 13:06
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What the gently caress?!! Those should all be in prison, how hosed up is your legal system that criminals can just go 
"There aren't enough people working in my profession, you can't convict me!"
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Arright, our sister march starts in 20 minutes, good god yo, awful weather. Still, hoping some folks will show up.Rakosi posted:I can do a massive effortpost about women and men in Japan from like the 1800's to the modern day if anyone is interested in that derail. Doing a Japan and race thing in Negrotown at the moment 
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Jan 21, 2017 14:42
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Stay safe out there friends
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Jan 21, 2017 15:06
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Anyone who attends the Womans March today, I beg you, if you can, to attend in a meaningful way and not simply be an extra face. This is not the sort an event with any inherent value - like many marches, it is about opportunity. If you arent actively recruiting for an organization dedicated to lasting pressure and real change, then at let yourself be recruited while you are there, and enable the same to happen for others - dont just be a protest tourist, quickly forgotten. Use this as an opportunity to add momentum. I am sure many of the regular posters are already involved with actual relevant movements so this is mostly for lurkers and the like.
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Jan 21, 2017 16:38
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E: sorry wrong thread E2: heck of a view https://mobile.twitter.com/AntonioFrench/status/822830171044638720 MariusLecter fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Jan 21, 2017 |
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Jan 21, 2017 16:56
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Libluini posted:
Oh they wouldn't consult you either. It's just something they assume all men want, because women's bodies are objects for male pleasure, so why not improve them to make them more pleasurable whenever you have the opportunity. Women just wake up with it done.
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Jan 21, 2017 19:25
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Libluini posted:
I've heard about the "daddy stitch" before, but haven't been able to find any actual evidence of it. Can anyone post an example of it happening?
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Jan 21, 2017 19:46
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DeadlyMuffin posted:I've heard about the "daddy stitch" before, but haven't been able to find any actual evidence of it. Can anyone post an example of it happening? Depends on what you mean by "actual evidence." Women talking about their bodies and experiences tends to be confined to anecdotes, because men and the institutions they control are dismissive or outright hostile to them. Until there's a court case or something you're not going to get much more than women saying "yeah that happened to me." Men can always reflexively say "no it didn't" so it just comes down to who you're more inclined to listen to.
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Jan 21, 2017 20:04
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It's also referred to as the husband stitch, happy husband stitch and lovers knot
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Jan 21, 2017 20:05
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Got a question. I get how hegemonic masculinity is the problem for feminist movements, but how do feminists approach emphasized femininity and the women who propagate it?
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Jan 21, 2017 20:31
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Rakosi posted:Got a question. I get how hegemonic masculinity is the problem for feminist movements, but how do feminists approach emphasized femininity and the women who propagate it? Is hegemonic masculinity the problem or is the patriarchy? Be careful not to conflate the two. Personally, I think Connell's analytical framework is too narrow on that. Also, she's very binary. Emphasized femininity is not propagated solely by women; rather, it is propagated through the entirety of the patriarchal society. Aside from the socialization issues, a not insignificant portion of media for women, and the advertisements and media we all see are financed and designed by men.
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Jan 21, 2017 20:42
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Rakosi posted:I can do a massive effortpost about women and men in Japan from like the 1800's to the modern day if anyone is interested in that derail. Doing a Japan and race thing in Negrotown at the moment I would be very interested in reading about this,
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Jan 21, 2017 21:07
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stone cold posted:Is hegemonic masculinity the problem or is the patriarchy? Be careful not to conflate the two. Personally, I think Connell's analytical framework is too narrow on that. Also, she's very binary. Yeah, sorry, I worded my question badly. I meant to ask how you approach, from a feminist position, women who do propagate emphasized femininity (without inferring it is women that propagate it). I.E, at what point is it harmful to the feminist movement in how any particular woman chooses to gender herself in her dress, mannerisms and behaviors? Genocyber posted:I would be very interested in reading about this, I will probably get on it, but likely after the Womens Marches are over as I can see this thread will probably be busy and now is probably not the best time to introduce a big TL;DR or five. Just as a disclaimer: I know very little about feminism, but I can historicize womens issues in my one field of expertise. I'll likely touch on things such as employment in Japan for women, and the contradiction of the Japanese governments liberal abortion policy and conservative contraception policies in respect to women. Childcare as well, will probably appear.
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Jan 21, 2017 21:29
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Libluini posted:
Its another economic issue. It costs hundreds of thousands of dollars and a decade of education to train a doctor in America. We then have to pay doctors absurd amounts of money so they can in turn pay off the ridiculous debts theyve accrued and pay for their malpractice insurance. So not only is it very costly to train a doctor but they are also very expensive to keep around, meaning we can't just have extra doctors to replace the bad ones. Therefore the bad doctors can get away with murder with no fear of reprisal. Its all systemic, which is why call out culture will completely fail to do anything meaningful about the problem. If you want better doctors, you need to make bad doctors easier to replace. Medical school needs to be cheaper, shorter, and with more slots available. We need tort reforms to bring down the cost of malpractice insurance. The rest of the world doesnt have this insanity around the medical profession and they manage to not kill everyone in the hospital. Sexism is partially a result of systems being unresponsive and slow to change. You'd think enough people yelling about a problem would cause *something*, right? But issues like barriers to entry, entrenched interests, or asinine policy can fortify the status quo to the point where yelling angrily doesn't do anything. Its like a massive knot. You have to pick at it and loosen up many different threads before you can unravel it. And unfortunately its too big and too tough to simply cut through without the significant backing to find and lift a sword big enough.
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Jan 21, 2017 21:31
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Rakosi posted:Yeah, sorry, I worded my question badly. I meant to ask how you approach, from a feminist position, women who do propagate emphasized femininity (without inferring it is women that propagate it). I.E, at what point is it harmful to the feminist movement in how any particular woman chooses to gender herself in her dress, mannerisms and behaviors? I'd definitely be interested in reading this too. Can you link to your Japan/race post too?
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Jan 21, 2017 21:33
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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DeusExMachinima posted:I'd definitely be interested in reading this too. Can you link to your Japan/race post too? Click mah quote name. Posted a few times in that thread so far.
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Jan 21, 2017 21:37
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Depends on what you mean by "actual evidence." Women talking about their bodies and experiences tends to be confined to anecdotes, because men and the institutions they control are dismissive or outright hostile to them. Until there's a court case or something you're not going to get much more than women saying "yeah that happened to me." Men can always reflexively say "no it didn't" so it just comes down to who you're more inclined to listen to. I think your focus should be on the systemic abuse of doctors in the medical system due to their positions of power, rather than asserting a flashy point that you have no evidence for. The first is galling and evidence based, past the shock value of 'doctors are raping patients!' you can follow up with the above posted articles and such, which were chilling. The second is all hook and no substance, and instead of filling a reader with rightful outrage against a system that enables objectification and abuse of women just makes them question your honesty.
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Jan 21, 2017 21:55
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LeJackal posted:I think your focus should be on the systemic abuse of doctors in the medical system due to their positions of power, rather than asserting a flashy point that you have no evidence for. I think your focus should be getting out of any and all progressive issues conversations, Horrific Creep LeJackal. Explaining why marginalized groups often have little more than anecdotes to document their experiences is not an invitation to you to tell me what to do. The fact that you think you can just barge in here and start handing out orders is exactly the arrogance of male mediocrity we have discussed here at length. Get out and don't come back. (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 21, 2017 21:59
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LeJackal posted:I think your focus should be on the systemic abuse of doctors in the medical system due to their positions of power, rather than asserting a flashy point that you have no evidence for. You are the avatar of the patriarchy. You do realize you can make that first point without being so incredibly lovely to rape victims, right? Like literally as tiny bronco pointed out, you completely dismiss the rape allegations as having no substance because ??? If you are question the honesty of the admittedly anecdotal evidence that these women have versus the medical system and these doctors who have a vested interest in allowing this system of abuse to continue, you might want to do some self-reflection. Also, if hearing about rapes makes you feel suspicion instead of outrage, that might also be something worth meditating on.
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Jan 21, 2017 22:01
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GlyphGryph posted:Anyone who attends the Womans March today, I beg you, if you can, to attend in a meaningful way and not simply be an extra face. This is not the sort an event with any inherent value - like many marches, it is about opportunity. If you arent actively recruiting for an organization dedicated to lasting pressure and real change, then at let yourself be recruited while you are there, and enable the same to happen for others - dont just be a protest tourist, quickly forgotten. Use this as an opportunity to add momentum.
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Jan 21, 2017 22:03
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Not a Step posted:It costs hundreds of thousands of dollars and a decade of education to train a doctor in America. We then have to pay doctors absurd amounts of money so they can in turn pay off the ridiculous debts theyve accrued and pay for their malpractice insurance. So not only is it very costly to train a doctor but they are also very expensive to keep around, meaning we can't just have extra doctors to replace the bad ones. Therefore the bad doctors can get away with murder with no fear of reprisal. Its all systemic, which is why call out culture will completely fail to do anything meaningful about the problem. If you want better doctors, you need to make bad doctors easier to replace. Medical school needs to be cheaper, shorter, and with more slots available. We need tort reforms to bring down the cost of malpractice insurance. The rest of the world doesnt have this insanity around the medical profession and they manage to not kill everyone in the hospital. I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but isn't pushing tort reform for medical malpractice at odds with letting doctors get away with murder, both figuratively and even in rare cases, literally? I've heard the issue with the short supply of doctors in the US has more to do with regulations relating to number of residencies in US hospitals. The doctors' professional associations pushed for those regulations to protect doctors' very high salaries. I agree that there needs to be more doctors in the US, which should help with lowering medical care cost. Medical schools in the US should also be restructured to accept students from high school so you don't need to shell out the skrilla for four years of college tuition for like a year and a half of relevant pre-reqs for medical school. Most of the rest of the world does medical school that way, and their doctors are perfectly fine.
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Jan 21, 2017 22:04
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Medical industry reform is a huge and worthy topic and should probably have its own thread. And for the billionth time, "don't care about what you care about, care about what I tell you to care about!" is not progressive and it is not allyship and it is explicitly against the values and purpose of this discussion.
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Jan 21, 2017 22:07
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Example of forced episiotomy (the medical term for what TB referenced) happening recently: https://improvingbirth.org/2015/06/preview-woman-charges-ob-with-assault-battery-for-forced-episiotomy/ Article discussing the procedure and others and whether women need them during childbirth: https://www.google.com/amp/s/saludmovil.com/episiotomy-husband-stitch-tear-labor/amp/?client=safari Basically, they used to think it had a wider practical purpose, but as of 2006 it is no longer recommended and the rate of occurrence declined sharply. It does serve medical purposes in some cases and happens with informed consent, but there are also documented cases of doctors doing it without consent. This is like the first two Google hits LeJackal.
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Jan 21, 2017 22:12
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stone cold posted:You are the avatar of the patriarchy. You do realize you can make that first point without being so incredibly lovely to rape victims, right? Like literally as tiny bronco pointed out, you completely dismiss the rape allegations as having no substance because ??? I don't dismiss them? I'm sure that this little gem from Lightning Knight's post is true. quote:The doctor finished the procedure, then sent the nurse out of the room for bandages. He began wiping Dawn Marie’s knee; she assumed he was cleaning up the iodine. As he calmly asked the then-39-year-old singer about her work, he started dabbing her inner thighs. Her upper thighs. Her buttocks. When Dawn Marie felt his finger penetrate her vagina through her underwear, she froze. “I remember thinking: No, this cannot be.” This horrible crime isn't alone, its part of a pattern of abuse by people put in positions of power and authority (doctors) and it needs to be stopped. I'm not dismissing these victims. LeJackal fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Jan 21, 2017 |
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Jan 21, 2017 22:13
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But yea, about 400 people showed up for the march, despite the terrible weather. Chants and whatnot ensued. Police helped by keeping traffic from interrupting the march. Americans all pleasantly surprised by that. Good mix of natives/Americans and men/women made speeches though I woulda loved more POC. A lotta folks I knew were there. Might grab some media pics if y'all want.
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Jan 21, 2017 22:14
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LeJackal posted:I don't dismiss them? I'm sure that this little gem from Lightning Knight's post is true. Get OUT nobody cares what your gun-gargling rear end thinks about anything. We do not need your approval to continue talking. You are not a feminist, you do not get to decide what feminists discuss. Go plan your next rape.
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Jan 21, 2017 22:15
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Women's march in Boston hit ~125,000 people. Like the other big marches, it was too big to really "march," but it plowed on with its best attempt along the planned route. Police were cool, stuck it out, and kept the roads closed well past the originally planned time. It took an hour for my group just to get out of the Common. Several great local speakers. Elizabeth Warren gave a solid speech that feels like the Dem platform going forward: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oGzqrVlxf0 Maura Healey, Massachusetts AG, particularly surprised me with the strength of her language, wish I could find a transcript of that one. Open threat to sue the administration if they gently caress around with rights. Nkosi Nkululeko loving killed it too, first I'd heard of him and drat.
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Jan 21, 2017 22:16
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Go plan your next rape. Okay you are being ridiculous.
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Jan 21, 2017 22:17
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Rakosi posted:Okay you are being ridiculous. Get out, rakosi. You don't get to tell the women of this thread to not yell at a pig who comes in to be a rape apologist and denier, and then who posts unspoiled sexual assault details. You posted some interesting things, but clearly you are not an ally. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 21, 2017 22:19
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Rakosi posted:Okay you are being ridiculous. Oh hey sup rakosi, bumbling into another conversation you have no understanding of the context behind? Well I'm sure you know best! Male snap judgments outweigh female informed opinions every time. Maybe you could accuse male allies of "groveling" in here too.
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Jan 21, 2017 22:19
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Rakosi posted:Yeah, sorry, I worded my question badly. I meant to ask how you approach, from a feminist position, women who do propagate emphasized femininity (without inferring it is women that propagate it). I.E, at what point is it harmful to the feminist movement in how any particular woman chooses to gender herself in her dress, mannerisms and behaviors? The point at which her individual choice becomes something imposed onto others, restricting their own choices. Patriarchy sets up a no-win scenario where it defines the feminine standard and denigrates women who veer from it, then it turns around and denigrates that standard in contrast to superior masculinity. If you're aware of that contradiction then whatever choices you make about your appearance can be a rebellion against it. High fems pushing against the the idea that the masculine is superior are engaging in feminism just as much as stone butches pushing against the idea a woman must be feminine.
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Jan 21, 2017 22:26
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Oh, and the most beautifully stereotypical white dude thing happened. A band is rocking out on the back of a truck, woman of color is there shouting "the people! united! will never be divided!" in time with the music (yes yes yes I know but it worked with the meter so shhhhhh) and the crowd picks it up. White dude with an ACLU sign around his neck has a goddamn megaphone and starts belting it out over the crowd, but badly off time with everyone else. Lasts about five times then he realizes that was a bad look and slinks away, where we caught up with him later down the march route, leading a new chant. [edit:] Boston march video: https://twitter.com/onlyinbos/status/822904774714621952 BRAKE FOR MOOSE fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Jan 21, 2017 |
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Jan 21, 2017 22:27
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"Wow, the systemic abuses committed by doctors need to be stopped." *is apologist and denier*
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Jan 21, 2017 22:27
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LeJackal posted:"Wow, the systemic abuses committed by doctors need to be stopped." I gave you two articles backing up what TB said, which you are doubting in a context where doubting victims' credibility is literally one of the biggest systemic problems. Also you posted unspoiled sexual assault details.
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Jan 21, 2017 22:29
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Oh hey sup rakosi, bumbling into another conversation you have no understanding of the context behind? Well I'm sure you know best! Male snap judgments outweigh female informed opinions every time. Maybe you could accuse male allies of "groveling" in here too. stone cold posted:Get out, rakosi. You don't get to tell the women of this thread to not yell at a pig who comes in to be a rape apologist and denier, and then who posts unspoiled sexual assault details. I don't have to kowtow to every statement you make to be an ally to your cause. Explain to me how suggesting he should go "plan his next rape" was even remotely constructive. You know, I really tried to put in effort and contribute with posts from within my area of expertise but it is apparent that even very slight differences in tone are not just unwelcome here but are considered literal accessories to sexual violence and such. You are utterly, provably not on this forum to debate if this is your reaction to someone who has honestly tried to contribute, but has called you out on posting something rather extreme and ridiculous.
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Jan 21, 2017 22:30
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LeJackal posted:"Wow, the systemic abuses committed by doctors need to be stopped." You posted graphic sexual abuse details, you did the lovely sexist dude thing of deciding you got to give orders in a conversation you just showed up in and don't understand, and we don't have the memories of goldfish we know what a horrifiying rape-fantasizing gun-fetishisizing power-hungry desperate fascist creep you are. You are human garbage and we do not take loving orders from you. Get the gently caress out. We all know you touched yourself while reading those rape accounts, LeJackal. You aren't exactly new on the scene here.
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Jan 21, 2017 22:31
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Rakosi posted:I don't have to kowtow to every statement you make to be an ally to your cause. Explain to me how suggesting he should go "plan his next rape" was even remotely constructive. You know, I really tried to put in effort and contribute with posts from within my area of expertise but it is apparent that even very slight differences in tone are not just unwelcome here but are literal accessories to sexual violence and such. Posting unspoiled sexual assault details=being a good ally! Thanks for explaining this to my tiny female brain!
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Jan 21, 2017 22:32
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Rakosi posted:I don't have to kowtow to every statement you make to be an ally to your cause. Explain to me how suggesting he should go "plan his next rape" was even remotely constructive. You know, I really tried to put in effort and contribute with posts from within my area of expertise but it is apparent that even very slight differences in tone are not just unwelcome here but are considered literal accessories to sexual violence and such. This is a thread about feminism not your hurt male feelings, get the gently caress out.
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Jan 21, 2017 22:32
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Rakosi posted:I don't have to kowtow to every statement you make to be an ally to your cause. Explain to me how suggesting he should go "plan his next rape" was even remotely constructive. You know, I really tried to put in effort and contribute with posts from within my area of expertise but it is apparent that even very slight differences in tone are not just unwelcome here but are considered literal accessories to sexual violence and such. I hope you stick around despite the backseat modding. Really interested in that effort post. 
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Jan 21, 2017 22:34
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DeusExMachinima posted:I hope you stick around despite the backseat modding. Really interested in that effort post. So do you just have an alert set for "get the gently caress out" since it's more efficient than a namesearch
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Jan 21, 2017 22:35
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