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UmOk posted:I think most posters here understand that droids are people in Start Wharves. I am just genuinely curious about what people think makes a person a person. Man is separate from the animal kingdom because he is created in God's image.
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Jan 22, 2017 04:31
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UmOk posted:I think most posters here understand that droids are people in Start Wharves. I am just genuinely curious about what people think makes a person a person. Philosophically, it's a self-conscious, rational being.
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Jan 22, 2017 04:58
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UmOk posted:What is the line between humans and animals? Thus far, the strongest dividing line between humans and animals is the ability to consciously ask questions. The few experiments that've been done with ape language indicate that, while apes can (seemingly; there's still some debate around it) provide answers, they themselves do not ask questions.
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Jan 22, 2017 05:12
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Vermain posted:Thus far, the strongest dividing line between humans and animals is the ability to consciously ask questions. The few experiments that've been done with ape language indicate that, while apes can (seemingly; there's still some debate around it) provide answers, they themselves do not ask questions. I was reading a report somewhere on how far biologists think we could go if we were to breed dogs for intelligence (as in trying to get them near our level). They concluded that you could get some very smart dogs, but holy cow how weird would that world be.
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Jan 22, 2017 05:16
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Phylodox posted:I'm not saying it wasn't kind of lovely, just not slavery. Threepio was in possession of, just, ridiculously sensitive information and proved he just couldn't keep his mouth shut. What alternative did they have? Imprison him? Kill him? They probably should have mind-wiped Obi-Wan as well, come to think of it.
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Jan 22, 2017 05:29
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Hodgepodge posted:They probably should have mind-wiped Obi-Wan as well, come to think of it. Obi-Wan knew when to keep his trap shut.
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Jan 22, 2017 05:34
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UmOk posted:I think most posters here understand that droids are people in Start Wharves. I am just genuinely curious about what people think makes a person a person. In his book Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind, Yuval Noah Harari asserts that the distinguishing characteristic is the ability to believe in metaphors, fictions, abstractions, and imaginary things of that nature. The ability to treat ideas with little to no concrete basis as literally existent (and to cooperate with strangers who also acknowledge the existence of the same imaginings), and reason about them in the same way that one reasons about material phenomena. The things that art is about, basically, though he doesn't think that art itself is the key. That's the most recent idea I've heard about it, anyway, and it was compellingly presented.
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Jan 22, 2017 06:09
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UmOk posted:What is the line between humans and animals? Language, i.e. symbolization. The fact that C3PO is ashamed of his nakedness is a reference to the Eden myth, which is typically read as the tale of how humans were kicked out of the animal kingdom.
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Jan 22, 2017 06:22
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UmOk posted:I think most posters here understand that droids are people in Start Wharves. I am just genuinely curious about what people think makes a person a person. This is a genuinely important question, and is made all the more difficult as our species currently (seems to) have the crutch of being able to say that a person is a human. Indeed, the Merriam-Webster gives "human, individual" as the first definition of "person." Separating personhood from the human corpus might even seem an inherently unfruitful endeavor. However, the concept of non-human people has been a part of human culturally for quite literally the length of history, first as gods, spirits and talking beasts and later as otherworldly aliens and mechanical life such as droids. The concept of personhood must therefore be distinct from merely being human. Returning to Merriam-Webster, "person" has other definitions, the second of which may provide some direction, "a character or part in or as if in a play." It's also worth bringing up the etymology of the word "from Latin persona actor's mask, character in a play." From this, we might conclude that a person isn't only (or isn't merely) a state of being, but something that can be performed. Persons then aren't just limited to humans, but can also include anything that does or can perform as a person. (This also provides an explanation as to why humans can deny personhood to fellow humans: someone who solely considers personhood a performance would exclude humans who fail to perform to their subjective standard. This is also where society comes into play, since that would influence a persons standard for personhood.) While that is much more complete answer, it is not itself adequate. Performance is a type of communication. Performing as a person, then, must communicate something specific. This is the point that excludes things like digital assistants, animals wearing clothing*, and computer programs that solely consist of "10 Print I am alive" from being persons. ("The ability to speak does not make you intelligent.") An imitation of humanity is not enough; it fails to fully communicate what is necessary. What, then, needs to be communicated before we can recognize something as a person? A definitive answer is difficult to fully express, at least fully, but it can be roughly approximated (how rough is another question). It's almost certainly consists of at least: * The ability to have conscious experiences and subjectivity. (Which is sentience.) * The ability to recognize oneself as separate from their environment and other individuals. (Which is self-awareness.) * The ability to hold values and exercise judgement. (Which is sapience.) It might also (but likewise might not) consist of: * The ability to form models and representations of things within their mind and otherwise have thoughts. (Which is intentionality.) * The ability to form a sense of selfhood and a sense of wakefulness, distinct from self-awareness. (Which is consciousness.) * The ability to express it's thoughts and recognize such expressions from others. (Which is language.) Again, those qualities are not a full and complete definition of what personhood is. However, a being that can express all these characteristics can be considered to likewise possess all other characteristics that form personhood. That is, any being that can express these characteristics is certainly a person, and to assume otherwise is at best irresponsible and at worst heinous. Indeed, the concept that it is possible to possess such characteristics yet not be a person is morally fraught. (Do not take this to mean that personhood cannot necessarily exists outside the ability to communicate itself, merely that the ability to communicate ones personhood is proof of the fact.) This is what I believe makes a person a person. If I were to recognize these characteristics in something, be it a stone, a wheel of fire, or a tin wind-up toy, I would recognize that as a person. When I recognize those characteristics in a character or object in a work of fiction, I consider that character or object a person within the context of that work. *This isn't to argue that animals are or are not persons, merely that dressing them in clothing doesn't make them such. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 08:06 on Jan 22, 2017 |
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Jan 22, 2017 07:49
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You could have just typed "sentient being" .
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Jan 22, 2017 07:52
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euphronius posted:You could have just typed "sentient being" . Yeah, but then some jerk asks me what makes a sentient being a sentient being and we're all right back at the beginning again. Besides, I didn't have any plans for those four hours.
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Jan 22, 2017 08:04
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Ol' George just didn't care too much about whether his backstory made complete 100% logical sense as to whether droids were persons or not. They're characterised as people because that made the film the way he wanted it regards to comedy etc. Also, lol if you think the American civil war was started to free the slaves
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Jan 22, 2017 13:23
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Let me fill you in on a lil thing we like to call death of the author
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Jan 22, 2017 13:29
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The idea that filmmakers spend less time thinking about their work than random posters on internet forums never gets old.
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Jan 22, 2017 14:01
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starkebn posted:Ol' George just didn't care too much about whether his backstory made complete 100% logical sense as to whether droids were persons or not. They're characterised as people because that made the film the way he wanted it regards to comedy etc. quote:There's a saying: "Lol" if you buy blatant neoconfederate propaganda.
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Jan 22, 2017 14:55
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starkebn posted:Also, lol if you think the American civil war was started to free the slaves Uh, it was when the republicans took away the democrats slaves. That's why they are still so mad today. Also, lol if you think Lucas was thinking about any of this stuff this deeply.
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Jan 22, 2017 15:24
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spacetoaster posted:Uh, it was when the republicans took away the democrats slaves. That's why they are still so mad today. sassassin posted:The idea that filmmakers spend less time thinking about their work than random posters on internet forums never gets old. It's like poetry, it rhymes.
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Jan 22, 2017 15:31
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Perhaps Lucas has truly mastered wu wei the art of non-action. As the Buddha would say, "not thought, not self, not Star Wars."
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Jan 22, 2017 15:45
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The joke is that, even if Lucas were literally mindless, this guy will still have failed to outwit him.
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Jan 22, 2017 18:39
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starkebn posted:Ol' George just didn't care too much about whether his backstory made complete 100% logical sense as to whether droids were persons or not. They're characterised as people because that made the film the way he wanted it regards to comedy etc. Battle Hymn of the Republic posted:Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord; 
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Jan 22, 2017 19:32
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Schwarzwald posted:That aside, if you can mind-wipe a person whenever it's convenient for you to do so, then that person is functionally your slave regardless of legalities. Hell, that was the plot of Marvel's Civil War and Winter Soldier.
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Jan 22, 2017 20:01
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This rules and reminds me of all of the old classic Tolkien art. LIke rather than just repainting the scene as it is in the film, you could almost get the impression that this is an artist's vision of how it happened from a telling of the story. If you have any more, please share.
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Jan 22, 2017 23:41
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is that movie art or fan art?
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Jan 22, 2017 23:45
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No idea, I just found it on GIS and thought it was tight.
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Jan 22, 2017 23:52
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Silver Brushes posted:This rules and reminds me of all of the old classic Tolkien art. LIke rather than just repainting the scene as it is in the film, you could almost get the impression that this is an artist's vision of how it happened from a telling of the story. If you have any more, please share.  http://microkey.deviantart.com/art/Star-Wars-as-rock-band-299647831
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Jan 23, 2017 01:08
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It's super weird how the same people who are obsessed with Star Wars will passionately argue that Star Wars doesn't mean anything.
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Jan 23, 2017 04:41
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Halloween Jack posted:It's super weird how the same people who are obsessed with Star Wars will passionately argue that Star Wars doesn't mean anything. I went to grad school with a guy who had a violent conviction that archaeology was ultimately meaningless and without value outside of itself. He was also in his 9th year in grad school when I started.
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Jan 23, 2017 07:17
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ultimately it doesn't matter if shimi is freed, even if she was stashed away on some tropical paradise she would have eventually died and because the jedi are so afraid of negative emotions they don't teach anikin how to deal with them at all. anikin isn't seduced by the dark side he's pushed into it by the jedi.
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Jan 23, 2017 09:49
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If you think about it hard enough, ultimately, everything is meaningless.
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Jan 23, 2017 10:12
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Elfgames posted:ultimately it doesn't matter if shimi is freed, even if she was stashed away on some tropical paradise she would have eventually died and because the jedi are so afraid of negative emotions they don't teach anikin how to deal with them at all. anikin isn't seduced by the dark side he's pushed into it by the jedi. Ultimately it does matter that Shmi was freed and this directly contributed to her terrible death.
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Jan 23, 2017 11:04
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Elfgames posted:ultimately it doesn't matter if shimi is freed, even if she was stashed away on some tropical paradise she would have eventually died and because the jedi are so afraid of negative emotions they don't teach anikin how to deal with them at all. anikin isn't seduced by the dark side he's pushed into it by the jedi. The negative emotions of seeing your mother raped and tortured to death are probably greater than her dying in her sleep thirty years later in Tropical Paradise Old Folks' Home tho
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Jan 23, 2017 11:54
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theflyingexecutive posted:The negative emotions of seeing your mother raped and tortured to death are probably greater than her dying in her sleep thirty years later in Tropical Paradise Old Folks' Home tho The tropical paradise faced a military blockade, invasion and occupation, and its people were put into camps. Nowhere is safe in these star wars.
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Jan 23, 2017 13:29
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I wouldn't normally link to borderline clickbait youtube videos like this but this is by the same people who do earthling cinema, which is a pretty good series, and is somewhat relevant to the topic of Anakin's mother dying. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJBbzmlSaxU It hypothesises that Anakin is acting because of the 'death drive' Ernest Becker postulated in 'The Denial of Death', and compares it to the Jedi's pseudo-Buddhist approach regarding the acceptance of death. Manages to sneak in some Kierkegaard there too. Anakin is so consumed by the fear of death that he sacrifices everything to feel like he has control over it, whereas Obi-Wan becomes more powerful than he could ever imagine by being willing to die. (And then he does it himself at the end of ROTJ.)
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Jan 23, 2017 14:14
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DeimosRising posted:I went to grad school with a guy who had a violent conviction that archaeology was ultimately meaningless and without value outside of itself. He was also in his 9th year in grad school when I started.
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Jan 23, 2017 15:00
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http://www.starwars.com/news/the-official-title-for-star-wars-episode-viii-revealed Episode 8 - TLJ
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Jan 23, 2017 17:05
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Luke dies then.
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Jan 23, 2017 17:09
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But Jedi does not inflect for number.
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Jan 23, 2017 17:10
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I like it. Does make you wonder what happens to Luke by the end of this
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Jan 23, 2017 17:12
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But in latin, Jedi is spelt with an I!
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Jan 23, 2017 17:12
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So much for the Jedi returning, I guess.
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Jan 23, 2017 17:16
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