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drgnvale posted:I love the spike and chain swing. thats really cute 
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Jan 20, 2017 14:54
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Zark the Damned posted:Fair enough, I didn't realise they had separate rules. Thank you for noticing one of the major issues of AoS. Too many things have separate rules. I need a goddamn warscroll for the rules for walls? WTF?
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Jan 20, 2017 17:26
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Indolent Bastard posted:Thank you for noticing one of the major issues of AoS. Too many things have separate rules. I need a goddamn warscroll for the rules for walls? WTF? Only four pages of rules!! If you exclude all the other rules. e: To be clear, the organization of the rules for AoS is just awful and makes it unnecessarily hard to get into it. I wish the core rules had included more, but it feels like they set "four pages" as an arbitrary goal and cut out anything that went over. Maybe I'm spoiled by other games though... Avenging Dentist fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Jan 20, 2017 |
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Jan 20, 2017 18:26
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Indolent Bastard posted:I need a goddamn warscroll for the rules for walls? WTF?
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Jan 20, 2017 19:12
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It wouldn't be fair to let a flyer bypass the cover of your unit behind that fence, because the unit can't attack the flyer due to the model being mounted on a flight stand so the little dude's weapons are too far away. Also, you have to measure how far the spearpoint of your model moved when you rotate him on his base, but it would be too much trouble to have models measure LOS and see if an intervening wall is actually in the way of their fire or not.
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Jan 20, 2017 19:33
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Ironically there is an AoS event coming up at WHW and they explicitly say that they are using 'measure from the base'... Right from the event pack: "At this event, we will measure all distances between models using their bases as a reference point. This is commonly known as measuring “base-to-base”."
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Jan 20, 2017 19:38
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Yeah, I guarantee base to base will become the standard come 2nd edition of AoS.
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Jan 20, 2017 19:51
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SRM posted:Yeah, I guarantee base to base will become the standard come 2nd edition of AoS. Any ideas on what else could change? I'm worried about them taking out support for tomb kings and the other compendium units. I can see the writing on the wall for that though.
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Jan 20, 2017 22:22
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Considering they just put out a box-set full of compendium units, I'd say that's pretty safe. I expect we'll be see the base thing as previously said, a bit of a tidy up of messier rulings and some of the small factions being combined again.
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Jan 20, 2017 22:33
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If you mean IoB/Spire of Dawn, that uses new rules and names for the old units. actual compendium stuff is gonna make like the bretts so hard. e: I don't think GW still sell any compendium units, period. Saint Drogo fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Jan 21, 2017 |
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Jan 21, 2017 00:43
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Pierzak posted:No, you need the warscroll so the wall can be a legal unit in your army. can I have an army of walls?
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Jan 21, 2017 00:48
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SRM posted:I'm playing a game this weekend, and I found I was in need of more Fantasy-appropriate terrain, so I painted up a set of walls and fences! There's some State Troops in there for scale: These look drat amazing!
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Jan 21, 2017 04:32
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Moola posted:can I have an army of walls?
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Jan 21, 2017 06:31
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*the Donald rubs his hands in anticipation*
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Jan 21, 2017 09:54
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Avenging Dentist posted:Only four pages of rules!! Whilst I will generally defend AoS as a good, and enjoyable game (as much as people disagree its a "good" game, it is fun) , this was clearly stated to be the case in the recent interview with Jervis Johnson on Heelenhammer. They were given a brief that the rules had to be cut down to 4 pages, so it seems like the warscrolls was a way of getting around this limitation in regards to things like walls etc. Edit: Also, it may be clunky to go find a warscroll for a piece of terrain like a fence etc. but wasnt it the same thing in the monstrous rulebook that was 8th? I was constantly looking at the rulebook to find terrain rules, how many models go in a building etc. How do games like Warmahordes have these rules for comparison? Natrapx fucked around with this message at 10:30 on Jan 22, 2017 |
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Jan 22, 2017 10:25
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Natrapx posted:Whilst I will generally defend AoS as a good, and enjoyable game (as much as people disagree its a "good" game, it is fun) , this was clearly stated to be the case in the recent interview with Jervis Johnson on Heelenhammer. They were given a brief that the rules had to be cut down to 4 pages, so it seems like the warscrolls was a way of getting around this limitation in regards to things like walls etc. It's been said before but "fun" is a subjective experience and not a metric in game design. Now, if two people have otherwise similar tastes and one person finds something to be fun, then there's a high chance that the other person will also find it fun. But the blanket statement "AoS is fun" is not particularly useful in a discussion of it. It's far more interesting to discuss the actual mechanics behind a game and how it attempts to abstract or simulate things and to compare that to how other games handle the same problems. As for terrain in other games, in Kings of War terrain and cover are detailed on a page and a half of rules for all types of terrain. They consolidate various features into broad categories. For instance, hedges and fences are treated identically as well as lava flows and deep rivers. But it's not prescriptive. It simply defines a category and provides an example of something that might fit into that category. Players are free to define any feature on the table how they would like to. Before players choose deployment zones, they have to both agree on what type of terrain everything on the table is and what their various heights are. The thing with "four pages of rules" vs "but it's covered in a Warscroll" is that it means there aren't really four pages of rules, so any argument that AoS removed bloat or simplified things is less than an accurate assessment. I genuinely don't know this so I'm asking, is there a single file or app that consolidates all the published Warscrolls into one place or do you have to shuffle through a punch of different PDFs to find the one you need? I guess players are free to print Warscrolls, but then that's just putting the burden of making a functional rulebook onto the players. I guess this is why it always looks like the guys playing AoS at my FLGS have to check three or four different books during the game. There's the main rules, whatever Warscrolls they've printed, various Battletomes, and then the General's Handbook.
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Jan 22, 2017 11:47
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Atlas Hugged posted:The thing with "four pages of rules" vs "but it's covered in a Warscroll" is that it means there aren't really four pages of rules, so any argument that AoS removed bloat or simplified things is less than an accurate assessment. It's in the free app in the Warscrolls section for terrain. Which basically serves like an index with pictures. It's not so bad, tbh. E: X-Wing isn't much different in this regard, with rules for ships and upgrades distributes on many different cards. But it's fine. Thumbing through giant rule books never seemed much better fozzy fosbourne fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Jan 22, 2017 |
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Jan 22, 2017 16:42
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fozzy fosbourne posted:It's in the free app in the Warscrolls section for terrain. Which basically serves like an index with pictures. It's not so bad, tbh. A staple of modern design is not having giant rulebooks.
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Jan 22, 2017 17:09
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Atlas Hugged posted:A staple of modern design is not having giant rulebooks. I'm learning Infinity right now and it seems pretty giant, still. From the perspective of X-wing, board games, and experience with old mini game giant rule books, at least.
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Jan 22, 2017 17:21
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I'm looking at it from the perspective of Saga, Kings of War, and Deadzone. The actual rules don't take up a lot of space in any of those books. Firefight is a bit thicker but also dedicates half the book to army lists. The rules themselves are fairly straightforward and don't occupy a ton of space in the book. I've heard that Infinity has a ton of rules, but I've never played it or seen the book for myself. I just don't have any interest in it.
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Jan 22, 2017 17:39
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fozzy fosbourne posted:E: X-Wing isn't much different in this regard, with rules for ships and upgrades distributes on many different cards. But it's fine. Thumbing through giant rule books never seemed much better decks and hands of cards are way more convenient to flip through than giant rulebooks or A4 sized cards dude
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Jan 22, 2017 19:23
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Atlas Hugged posted:I'm looking at it from the perspective of Saga, Kings of War, and Deadzone. The actual rules don't take up a lot of space in any of those books. Firefight is a bit thicker but also dedicates half the book to army lists. The rules themselves are fairly straightforward and don't occupy a ton of space in the book. Also, don't forget that AoS's 4 pages are very light on examples. Other games with longer rulebooks are longer because they have lots of pages showing things by example. For instance, there's nothing in the AoS core rules showing an example Warscroll, pointing out where the relevant details are located. It's not a great challenge to condense the rules down to 4 pages if you're willing to cut stuff like that out. (especially when you can ignore stuff like force composition). Back when I played at least, 40k could be condensed down to a single double-sided sheet of paper for the stuff you actually needed during a match. e: I'd totally be fine with a 4 page "quickstart" rulebook, provided they'd released a more-detailed version alongside it with lots of nice examples and a bit more depth. Maybe that's what the General's Compendium is for, but in that case, they should take the relevant excerpts from that and make them free. Avenging Dentist fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Jan 22, 2017 |
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Jan 22, 2017 20:39
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You can even condense 40k's current rules down to 8 pages, and that includes stuff like Death from the Skies formations. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4104995/Games/7edRef.pdf
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Jan 22, 2017 22:14
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Atlas Hugged posted:It's been said before but "fun" is a subjective experience and not a metric in game design. At risk of being pedantic... Fun is a very useful initial measurement of someone's affect towards a product and usually a good playtesting module will lead to questions that piece apart the enjoyment into a series of specific reactions. If someone says something is "fun" it isn't specific, but it is a reaction you want to engender (usually) and it is something you can drill down into. Game design is very much about evoking specific experiences (subjective experiences) in customers and customers will tend to speak in a subjective language. So a constructive response to someone saying AoS is fun is not "fun isn't a valid way to talk about your experience" but something more like "can you be specific about what you enjoyed?" or "can you describe the experience that you just had?" and then successive drilling down (after observational playtesting). If someone plays my game and says it's fun it's one of a bunch of things that help me understand if their experience matches my expectations. Yes it's very high level, but subjectivity does not disqualify feedback.  GW needs to stop this "the designers got a note saying the rules had to be 4 pages" crap. They've turned the corner on community, now they need to turn the corner on design. I'm not sure how the community sends a clear message there.
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Jan 22, 2017 23:13
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GreenMarine posted:GW needs to stop this "the designers got a note saying the rules had to be 4 pages" crap. They've turned the corner on community, now they need to turn the corner on design. I'm not sure how the community sends a clear message there. Traditionally the way you send this message is by buying games that are well designed and not buying ones that aren't.
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Jan 22, 2017 23:26
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:Traditionally the way you send this message is by buying games that are well designed and not buying ones that aren't. GW has seemed immune to that in the past. Prideful, almost, in their old fashioned processes.
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Jan 22, 2017 23:29
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GreenMarine posted:GW has seemed immune to that in the past. Prideful, almost, in their old fashioned processes. Well yeah because you guys keep on buying their games regardless
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Jan 22, 2017 23:48
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Speaking of which, I picked up the Disciples of Tzeentch book today. The Lord of Change has some neat abilities: - Mastery of Magic: When casting or unbinding, change the lowest dice to equal the highest dice. - Spell-thief: On an unbinding roll of 9 or greater, the Lord of Change learns the spell and can cast it on a subsequent turn. - Can cast two spells a turn. And he's got a spell that can deal up to 9 mortal wounds. His Rod of Sorcery weapon deals 2D6 attacks (3/3/-/1). The blue scribes have a 50% chance of learning any spell cast within 18" (friend or foe) and have a spell that allows re-rolls of casting for Tzeentch Wizards. The Ogre Thaumaturge has a spell that creates a pink daemon for every mortal wound it causes. GreenMarine fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Jan 23, 2017 |
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Jan 23, 2017 00:51
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GreenMarine posted:At risk of being pedantic... This might be true, but it's not necessarily so. A person's subjective but valid fun experience could have absolutely nothing to do with the game, its design and philosophy, or what the mechanics are trying to evoke. When pressed to explain in further detail why they had fun, I think you're just as likely to hear any of the following: 1) "You provided beer. Fun was inevitable." 2) "I haven't had to be around my wife or children for three hours. This is the greatest day of my life." 3) "You and I are literally friends and I choose to remain your friend because I find your presence enjoyable. I would have fun spending time with you regardless of if we were playing Age of Sigmar or installing linoleum." 4) "Your vivid descriptions and clear way of speaking bring the game alive in a way the sterile and sparse rules never could. I would find any game we played together fun so long as you narrated."
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Jan 23, 2017 01:52
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Atlas Hugged posted:"I would have fun spending time with you regardless of if we were playing Age of Sigmar or installing linoleum." 
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Jan 23, 2017 03:06
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:Well yeah because you guys keep on buying their games regardless if you want them to make better games you need to buy more of their stuff
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Jan 23, 2017 14:15
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More Stormcast on the way. 'least they've got some bare heads. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/01/23/the-vanguard-of-the-storm/  Also boxes of Birbdogs. 
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Jan 23, 2017 20:57
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Why you doin' posing duplicates in the age of CAD, c'mon son. edit: Does anyone actually like Sigmarines Miles O'Brian fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Jan 23, 2017 |
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Jan 23, 2017 21:05
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Ha ha ha ha ha HA HA HA HA haaahaaaa ha ha ha ha ha HA ha HA HAHAHA.
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Jan 23, 2017 21:05
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The Sigmarines are fine, I guess. I was really hoping they'd be doing Free Peoples next since they've been mentioning them more in the White Dwarf articles and fluff. These guys are pretty par for the course but the crossbow bolt pistols and some of the bare heads are kinda neat. The Birbdogs are cool though.
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Jan 23, 2017 21:09
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SRM posted:The Sigmarines are fine, I guess. I was really hoping they'd be doing Free Peoples next since they've been mentioning them more in the White Dwarf articles and fluff. These guys are pretty par for the course but the crossbow bolt pistols and some of the bare heads are kinda neat. The Birbdogs are cool though. I think it's very unlikely that any old world armies will get updated before they're done releasing all their Newwe Factyions (and honestly, it's probably a long shot that they'll get any updates at all).
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Jan 23, 2017 21:15
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If WHFB was still a thing, I'd totally want to build an Empire army with a bunch of demigryph knights, these new gryph dogs (assuming it was Empire who got them, of course), and a general on a gryphon.
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Jan 23, 2017 21:22
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SteelMentor posted:More Stormcast on the way. OH MY EMPEROR, THOSE BIRDIEDOGGIES ARE SO CUTE!
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Jan 23, 2017 21:31
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Liking the new Birddogs, less impressed with the Bearmarines and their literal bolters and grenades.
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Jan 23, 2017 21:34
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I thought the sigmarines were hollow shells with ghosts in them or did they retcon that to Aryan ubermenschen to keep in like with their sig runes
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Jan 23, 2017 21:48
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