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Should it be legal for other people to assault you if they disagree with you? This poll is closed. |
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| Yes |
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183 | 49.06% |
| No |
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190 | 50.94% |
| Total: | 328 votes | ||
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SSNeoman posted:loving hell lowtax last post for real, stops posting 5 posts later
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Jan 23, 2017 05:12
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| # ? May 29, 2024 06:34 |
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wizard on a water slide posted:It's good that the law and morality are two different things, because it should not be legal to assault people, but it is morally correct to assault Nazis.
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Jan 23, 2017 05:12
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It has nothing to do with Trump and everything to do with other things that Spencer believes and supports.
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Jan 23, 2017 05:13
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The Kingfish posted:Lowtax is ignoring what pretty much everyone in that thread is saying. It shouldn't be legal but it is still very good. Juries can nullify his attacker's sentence if they want because that's how juries work. He says, repeatedly, that it's cool and good that this Nazi dickbag got punched in his smarmy loving face. The opinion you're expressing is exactly what he said. Repeatedly. The whole post you're trying to answer is in response to people arguing that such violence should be legal, so he's asking them to quantify how much violence should be legal. loving halfwits are why we can't have nice things. Lowtax posted:Eh this isn't particularly fun discussing this and it's just wasting my time, so I'm going to bow out. To recap my positions: wizard on a water slide posted:It's good that the law and morality are two different things, because it should not be legal to assault people, but it is morally correct to assault Nazis.
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Jan 23, 2017 06:31
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It's not exactly what he said it's subtly different. I don't have a problem with normalizing violence against Nazis. I'm not saying he's bad or trying to own him or anything. We just disagree about exactly how good punching Nazis is. It's a ~dialectic~
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Jan 23, 2017 06:35
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We should strive to normalize violence against Nazis, at the same taking care not to normalize political violence in the general case. If these two goals are in direct conflict, then your society and your government are being infiltrated by Nazis, and the second goal has to be temporarily set aside. And yeah, it's a serious problem that it's hard to reintroduce those political norms once they're broken down - that's why you're not supposed to allow Nazis to infiltrate your government and society in the first place. Yet here we are.
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Jan 23, 2017 06:56
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Liquid Communism posted:He says, repeatedly, that it's cool and good that this Nazi dickbag got punched in his smarmy loving face. The opinion you're expressing is exactly what he said. Repeatedly. The whole post you're trying to answer is in response to people arguing that such violence should be legal, so he's asking them to quantify how much violence should be legal. My answer to "How much violence is acceptable against nazis?" is "enough that they change their views or stop publicly espousing them out of shame or fear". Spencer has already talked about being able to go out less, so clearly "punch in the face" is a pretty good level. Punch them until they go away. edit: and just to ward off "oh but people who don't like what you like are nazis then right?" assholes, the line for "nazi" is "advocates for genocide". Advocate for genocide, get punched in the face until you go away.
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Jan 23, 2017 07:09
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It is likely that Richard Spencer is playing up the danger he feels he is in, in order to get sympathy from milquetoast liberals who haven't figured out yet that American society is currently in a battle against fascism. I hope he actually fears for his safety, but he probably doesn't. Not yet, anyway.
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Jan 23, 2017 07:23
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Kilroy posted:It is likely that Richard Spencer is playing up the danger he feels he is in, in order to get sympathy from milquetoast liberals who haven't figured out yet that American society is currently in a battle against fascism. I hope he actually fears for his safety, but he probably doesn't. Not yet, anyway. Could you explain in your own words what you think that "battle" and "fascism" mean.
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Jan 23, 2017 07:30
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Hogge Wild posted:Could you explain in your own words what you think that "battle" and "fascism" mean. probably the fact we have known fascists in the whitehouse and an orange likely fascist in control of the country
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Jan 23, 2017 07:41
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Hogge Wild posted:Could you explain in your own words what you think that "battle" and "fascism" mean.
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Jan 23, 2017 07:51
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technology is pretty crazy these days, i hear you can just google a word and it will tell you what it is. this is the future, boys, where we're going we don't need roads. 
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Jan 23, 2017 07:56
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A reminder, it wasn't that long ago that Neo-Nazis, in defense of Richard Spencer getting flak for being a genocidal fuckwit, were doxxing and threatening Jewish people in his hometown, urging their supporters to "take action" against them, and planning an armed march with "high-powered rifles" in this town, in protest of Jews. Literally, in their own words, their march was "against Jews", as well as Jewish businesses and anyone who allied themselves with Jews. Word got out, a quite sizable counter-protest was formed, and when the day of the march came, none of the Nazis dared show their faces. While you can debate how much of this was due to the resistance they would face and how much is simply the Nazis in question being pathetic and incapable of organizing effectively (they're already promising to try again at a later date), I think this incident is further evidence in favor of punching Nazis. These assholes want to strut through the streets, sowing terror and doing as they please, threatening and possibly even injuring or killing people. And then, eventually, the whole ethnic cleansing thing and all that. And it's not like there aren't numerous examples, some quite recent, of what happens when Neo-Nazis aren't stopped before they start to insert themselves into society and push people around. (Spoilers: The most effective resistance to them nearly always involved beating their asses.) Make them afraid now, before they start shooting people. (Well, more people; they've already shot at least one person, who's in critical condition last I heard, since the inauguration.) It's not like Spencer's innocent but for all the genocidal rhetoric, either; he wasn't directly involved in the above armed march against Jews, he did help publicly spread the name and information of the primary target of the harassment and doxxing campaign. Also he's like the number one idol of Steve Bannon, Breitbart owner and Neo-Nazi who is now our new President's right-hand man, writing his speeches and advising his every move. He's openly hurting people directly as well as indirectly already, and wants to take things even further; lest anyone forget, his goal is, in his own words, ethnic cleansing of at least part of the US to form a "white ethno-state", and he's written about how we should be debating the best ways to genocide black people. Anything you do to Richard Spencer should be considered self-defense and defense of others, and also outright heroic.
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Jan 23, 2017 07:57
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Anyone who fears that this may 'normalize violence' is blind to the fact that violence is already normalized for america. A majority of americans think that torture is acceptable against suspected 'enemy combatants'. The worship and taboo against questioning anyone in a uniform is what allows its military to kill hundreds of thousands of iraqi civilians, or regularly profile, incarcerate and brutalize american minorities at higher rates than whites while the rest of its citizens look away. The people committing these acts of violence are almost never held accountable for these actions, which sends the message that it's okay for them to do it (and results in them trying to get away with more. For instance, bills have been introduced by the current congress to allow those in uniform to legally use lethal force against protests of 10 people or more, which is a page out of apartheid South Africa). When all traditional legal checks and balances against the abuse of power fail, people get desperate for redress and tend to take things into their own hands in ways that aren't legal. Rodatose fucked around with this message at 08:08 on Jan 23, 2017 |
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Jan 23, 2017 07:59
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mods, please rename this thread to "nazi lives matter"
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Jan 23, 2017 11:57
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Hogge Wild can you explain in your own words why you love fascism?
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Jan 23, 2017 13:47
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B-b-b-but what does "fascist" even mean??? Oh jeepers won't someone think of the racially pure little Aryan children!Condiv posted:mods, please rename this thread to "nazi lives matter"
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Jan 23, 2017 16:41
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Condiv posted:mods, please rename this thread to "nazi lives matter"
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Jan 23, 2017 17:16
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Punch Nazis Every Day Violence is the language of the unheard; feeling good about a nazi getting punched is the emotions of the unheard. White supremacists do not respect respect, and their views should be silenced by any moral society. A person does not have to physically harm somebody in order to threaten lives; punching fascists is self defense, not on a legal but on an ethical level. The law is right to punish such behavior, but those that dream of an end to bigotry are right to cheer it. Condiv posted:mods, please rename this thread to "nazi lives matter"
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Jan 23, 2017 17:22
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Jan 23, 2017 17:23
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Man I'm beginning to think this Hogge Wild guy isn't actually looking to debate but rather to deliver weak low-energy owns to leftists.
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Jan 23, 2017 17:29
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SunAndSpring posted:Man I'm beginning to think this Hogge Wild guy isn't actually looking to debate but rather to deliver weak low-energy owns to leftists. 
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Jan 23, 2017 17:38
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The sucker-punch method is a p.weak way to put down the FA, guys. Judging by the last 48 hours all it does is make 2/3rds of people go "gently caress yea", 1/3rd of people to say "I dont know about this" and the Fa is still alive and Fa-ing his way around the world. (Presumably armed or with armed security). Really guns and bombs technology is the proven "punch" that you need to be giving. If you feel now is the time for action, Please see the following, and get bombing and shooting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAFfim4QQZE MattD1zzl3 fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Jan 23, 2017 |
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Jan 23, 2017 17:45
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Propaganda of the deed is good.
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Jan 23, 2017 17:48
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:It's about confirming his views about D&D so he can go whine to QCS and Lowtax about how mean D&D is to him Mr. Lowtax, these people believe communism is cool and good, and that punching Nazis is funny. Send them to the dungeon.
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Jan 23, 2017 17:49
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No OP, disagreements should be settled by duels agreed upon by both parties.
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Jan 23, 2017 17:52
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edit: nvm
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Jan 23, 2017 22:38
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I'll actually try to serious post. Do you think it's cool to punch a communist in the face when you see them in public? Or for someone to punch a known anti-war activist for being a traitor to the country? Is a pro-life bomber justified in bombing an abortion clinic because, in their eyes, a baby holocaust is happening? Is Joseph Paul Franklin a heroic figure for shooting and paralyzing known scumbag and pornographer Larry Flynt for showcasing interracial sex in his magazine? If you answered no to all of those then you can't support somebody assaulting or murdering a nazi for voicing their hosed up views. That doesn't mean you have to sit back while they attempt to spread their doctrine. You can protest them. You can protest any venue that gives them a platform. You can protest any business that employs them. You can ostracize them. You can get the law involved when they try to make a show of force like those nazis that got arrested for 'terrorizing' in Welcome To Leith. But you can't beat or murder them unless they try to turn their hateful speech into action. And honestly if you want to otherize literal neo-nazis and genocide advocates like Richard Spencer, you should stop trying to conflate them with Trump and the GOP. (I saw this comic book writer get quoted in The New York Times so maybe his word will carry more weight than mine. https://twitter.com/nickspencer/status/822591535158034432 https://twitter.com/nickspencer/status/822625805549367296 https://twitter.com/nickspencer/status/822627812800692224 https://twitter.com/nickspencer/status/822668442604015616 https://twitter.com/nickspencer/status/822972172666695681 )
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Jan 23, 2017 22:40
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Call Me Charlie posted:I'll actually try to serious post. Of course you'd be against punching nazis
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Jan 23, 2017 22:43
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Call Me Charlie posted:
Watch me.
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Jan 23, 2017 22:44
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Call Me Charlie posted:Do you think it's cool to punch a communist in the face when you see them in public? Or for someone to punch a known anti-war activist for being a traitor to the country? Is a pro-life bomber justified in bombing an abortion clinic because, in their eyes, a baby holocaust is happening? Is Joseph Paul Franklin a heroic figure for shooting and paralyzing known scumbag and pornographer Larry Flynt for showcasing interracial sex in his magazine? actually yes you can. people acting on stupid opinions doesn't mean that all opinions are now stupid and thus nobody can act.
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Jan 23, 2017 22:47
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"If we can't discuss ethnocide as a legitimate political option we are no longer a free country" - people who would never be on the receiving end of it
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Jan 23, 2017 22:51
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botany posted:actually yes you can. people acting on stupid opinions doesn't mean that all opinions are now stupid and thus nobody can act. You missed a part of my post. Call Me Charlie posted:That doesn't mean you have to sit back while they attempt to spread their doctrine. You can protest them. You can protest any venue that gives them a platform. You can protest any business that employs them. You can ostracize them. You can get the law involved when they try to make a show of force like those nazis that got arrested for 'terrorizing' in Welcome To Leith. But you can't beat or murder them unless they try to turn their hateful speech into action.
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Jan 23, 2017 22:55
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literal genocide: is it really wrong? Is anti-genocide sentiment in America just a passing fad? Who can even know! - forums superstar Call Me Charlie
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Jan 23, 2017 22:55
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Call Me Charlie posted:
you have a really hosed up view of how morality works punching people because you dislike their views shouldnt be legal. Punching them for being nazis is not the same as punching a dr for performing abortions on any level. That's not what moral relativism means.
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Jan 23, 2017 22:56
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fetuses aren't people hth
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Jan 23, 2017 22:57
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Agnosticnixie posted:"If we can't discuss ethnocide as a legitimate political option we are no longer a free country" - people who would never be on the receiving end of it That's what they think. They're all that priest with the famous quote about not speaking up and then no one spoke up for him Call Me Charlie posted:Is a pro-life bomber justified in bombing an abortion clinic because, in their eyes, a baby holocaust is happening? That one is complicated. Okay now I can punch nazis
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Jan 23, 2017 22:57
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Call Me Charlie posted:You missed a part of my post. no i didn't. of course you can do all those things, that was never under discussion. you can also punch nazis in the face. in fact it is encouraged.
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Jan 23, 2017 22:58
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Law exists to serve justice, and necessarily has blindspots intentionally put into place by humans who wisely anticipated their own lack of objectivity - hence "it is illegal to assault someone". However, Spencer is a Nazi and a plague on humanity - assaulting him is just, even if it's not legal. The illegality of the act isn't a tacit endorsement of his right to spread hate speech. It's just another blindspot. And a challenge.
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Jan 23, 2017 23:06
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Call Me Charlie posted:I'll actually try to serious post. Actually you can. It is not a requirement to be for or against all violence against speech. It is in fact acceptable to judge things on a case-by-case basis, as it should be. That's not to say that I necessarily do support any specific case of violence against speech, but you're being overly reductive.
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Jan 23, 2017 23:08
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