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I use peanut oil myself for oil or water quench steels. We don't do much work of that sort so I've never bought any of the fancy tempering oils. Even the water hardening steels in oil gives us more consistent results than using water.
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Jan 16, 2017 18:44
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I'm quenching in water, using a mix of W-1 and 1095. I had three knives. A small 1095 tanto, a big W1 tanto, and a W1 chef style knife. 2mm at the smallest edges, etc. The 1095 tanto had a traditional clay painted covering, to create a hamon. The chef knife got a crack on the spine during it's first quench. Small, but still a crack, and deep enough into the spine that it would ruin the geometry to grind it out. I think my biggest mistake on that one, was not going through enough annealing / normalizing first. The other two each survived their first quench, but had problems. Small tanto , clay treatment worked out fine, first quench went great. But I checked the blade with a file, and it had a soft spot right on the cutting edge, right near the base (ha-machi) The rest of the blade was hard. I was really torn... Should I redo it? I put it in for one anneal, and yes, re-did it. The second time, it went in, seemed fine, but was boiling the water for a long time. I pulled it out for a second, then put it back in, and that was when it cracked. I imagine if I'd done A) 1 more normalizing cycle and B) kept it IN THE loving WATER it would have worked. I even checked the part that didn't break, I had a nice hamon and everything  Big tanto - had a warp as it came out of the first quench. Heat, normalize, straighten. I don't think I did enough forging at high enough temps to really straighten it, and I don't think I did enough normalizing AFTER straightening. Heat and quench. Survives, but takes on the EXACT SAME WARP as the first time. As it's smoking hot I try to straighten in a vice. It bends, but comes right back. Try again? SNAP. All three of these were hand forged from square chunks of their respective steel, so this is about 40 hours of forging that all broke. Such is life, right? However, I learned a few things. From now on, I'm focusing much more on keeping things perfectly straight, each heat. I now have a straight edge near my anvil, and every other heat, I check all the lines and make sure we're flat. Next, I'm going to take more time to carefully normalize each blade at least twice before any heat treating, and three times if I need to re-do it. I found several discussions, and if I get a warp again, I think I will try the "clamping the blade to a straight bar during a 2nd temper heat" method. I've thought about switching to oil, too. My budget right now won't allow for the $200 purchase it takes to get some Parks 50. Canola oil in bulk, perhaps? I did heat my water up to "uncomfortably hot to the touch" before quenching. In short / in summary, I think better practices during forging, and keeping the items immersed during the actual quench, will resolve most of my problems. The rest will be resolved by attempting my straightening maneuvers after tempering.
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Jan 16, 2017 20:01
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Interesting - most people I know who work with 1095 prefer to quench in oil rather than water, though based on some quick reading I'm guessing that's because they tend to make smaller things. I don't use 1095 that much, but when I do I quench in oil (clean motor oil, to be exact). I've never tried 1095 in canola oil, but I have used canola and olive oil before for both 1084 and 5160, with good results. I switched to motor oil because it doesn't go rancid after sitting in the shop for a few months. When I use water, I normally go with an interrupted quench - 3 seconds in, 2 seconds out, repeating. I've never had a blade crack when putting it back in the quench, though I've had plenty do so on first insertion. On thing to note about water quenches - since it's boiling when it touches your steel, it will form lots of bubbles that aren't super great at transferring heat. That may be why you got a soft spot on your first quench on the small tanto. You can mitigate this a little bit by moving your piece up and down or back and forth (not side-to-side) in the water. When you tried to straighten in the vise, did you just hold the blade directly in the jaws, or did you have a bending jig? When straightening, it's important not to have any hard edges (like the edge of your vise jaws) putting pressure on your steel, since that additional stress may be enough to snap it. When I straighten a bend, I use three dowels (two on one side, one between them on the other) in my vise to provide rounded surfaces when applying pressure. Terrible ASCII art to illustrate: code:So all that being said, I think you're absolutely right with more/better normalizing before quenching. It sucks to lose something you've put a ton of work into, but as long as you're learning from the experience it's worth it.
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Jan 17, 2017 00:46
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I know using water is risky, and oil is on the list of things to add to the shop soon. Suggestions on good quench containers? I need to upgrade from plastic buckets. I am not using a straightening jig. I've seen the three dowel setup before, and I should probably use it.
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Jan 17, 2017 01:50
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Some big ole diesel exhaust pipe with a cap welded on one end maybe? If all you need it a long vertical container I think it'd work OK.
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Jan 17, 2017 02:59
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Doing a lot of sheet metal work, been using my new jigsaw with metal blade and it cuts like butter, but I really could use some quality tin snips, the ones I got are pure poo poo. There are good ones I have heard, but no idea what brands they are or what they cost.
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Jan 21, 2017 19:25
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Pagan posted:I know using water is risky, and oil is on the list of things to add to the shop soon. Go to goodwill or any thrift store with kitchen stuff and buy the largest metal stockpot you can find. If that's not deep enough, like if you're doing swords or something, a length of schedule 40 iron pipe with a cap on it might work. I worry when I see setups like that though that there's not enough volume of oil. If you spike the oil to 400 degrees when you quench, you might not be getting the same effect. Do you have an annealing box? Something like a box full of vermiculite that you can stick a hot piece in that will take an hour or two to cool down in is good.
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Jan 21, 2017 19:46
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 As you might know, I make trumpets. Here is the one I just finished building. The bell is phosphor bronze, and the tube the mouthpiece goes in to is red brass. Silver tubes are nickel silver, and the valves are silver plated (I used an extra valve block I had in my parts bin) Never done a shepherd's crook bend before, and I think the two bends turned out great. I haven't done any finishing on the horn, so the bell still needs stretch marks removed, and the solder joints need cleaning. Plays great. It won't need much tweaking, which is unusual.
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Jan 22, 2017 21:40
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Can anyone tell me how 1⁄16” wall rectangular steel tubing would compare to 1/8" thick steel channel under a bending load?
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Jan 22, 2017 22:29
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TerminalSaint posted:Can anyone tell me how 1⁄16” wall rectangular steel tubing would compare to 1/8" thick steel channel under a bending load? Draw it in fusion 360 and use the stress test feature ?
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Jan 22, 2017 23:34
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Brekelefuw posted:
Hell yeah. I can't appreciate trumpets for their musical qualities but I can appreciate em for their fine craftsmanship  The bell looks like, well, bronze, but the- dunno the term, i'd call it the downstem- is pink like pickled copper. Why's that?
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Jan 23, 2017 00:22
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Also, I don't remember, how do you form the bell? Do you spin em or do it the old-fashioned way? I have a product idea I've been tossing around in my head for a couple weeks and I'm pretty sure the only way it could be made economically is by spinning tubing, either substantially flaring out ~1/4" titanium tubing a lot like your bell there, or by necking down ~1/2"ish tubing to arrive at a similar profile. Would ya happen to know of any resources/information that could help with spinning small tubing in particular vs. spinning sheet?
Ambrose Burnside fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Jan 23, 2017 |
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Jan 23, 2017 00:27
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Brekelefuw posted:Draw it in fusion 360 and use the stress test feature ? Oh, I've already got fusion 360 installed, I'll check that out. Thanks.
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Jan 23, 2017 01:05
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Brekelefuw posted:
Do you have a website? Do you take commissions? My sister is a trumpeter and I know she'd be interested.
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Jan 23, 2017 03:08
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Ambrose Burnside posted:Also, I don't remember, how do you form the bell? Do you spin em or do it the old-fashioned way? I have a product idea I've been tossing around in my head for a couple weeks and I'm pretty sure the only way it could be made economically is by spinning tubing, either substantially flaring out ~1/4" titanium tubing a lot like your bell there, or by necking down ~1/2"ish tubing to arrive at a similar profile. Would ya happen to know of any resources/information that could help with spinning small tubing in particular vs. spinning sheet? The bell is spun from .7mm phosphor bronze sheet. The crook is pink because it was pickled after annealing. I haven't done any dressing of the bent area, or buffing yet to even out the finish. I bought David Ivens' spinning lathe, but I don't have it set up yet. I have seen people do small spinning projects on their hobby lathes, but it was in metals that aren't titanium. I don't know how you work titanium, but you might be able to hold it in a chuck/drill press and machine a hardened form that spins to ram in to the tube while its hot. beep-beep car is go posted:Do you have a website? Do you take commissions? My sister is a trumpeter and I know she'd be interested. You can follow me on Facebook at Divitt Trumpets, or instagram. My website is pretty outdated. I do make trumpets for customers, and am open to people's design ideas as long as I have the ability/tools to do them.
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Jan 23, 2017 03:46
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Brekelefuw posted:I don't know how you work titanium, but you might be able to hold it in a chuck/drill press and machine a hardened form that spins to ram in to the tube while its hot. You don't do this without an inert atmosphere, and serious equipment. Ti work hardens like a bitch, and likes to destroy tooling. Ambrose, I'd talk to the people who make Ti bike frames, they might reshape the tubing, but not anywhere near as much as you're talking about.
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Jan 23, 2017 23:27
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Long time reader, rare poster here with a quick question. I'm building an outboard motor (9.9 hp) "test tank" from a 55 gallon lubricating oil drum, and various and sundry scrap that I have handy. I need to cut the top off the drum, and not having any access to a de-heading tool, plan to use the my OA torch to do the job. The question I have is, since it originally contained lubricating oil (which isn't particularly volatile), can I just fill it half full with water, and then proceed with the cutting? Or, should I try somehow to get the last remaining quart of oil out of the bottom, and clean it out? Signed: trying not to kill myself.
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Jan 23, 2017 23:35
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BlankIsBeautiful posted:Long time reader, rare poster here with a quick question. I'm building an outboard motor (9.9 hp) "test tank" from a 55 gallon lubricating oil drum, and various and sundry scrap that I have handy. I need to cut the top off the drum, and not having any access to a de-heading tool, plan to use the my OA torch to do the job. The question I have is, since it originally contained lubricating oil (which isn't particularly volatile), can I just fill it half full with water, and then proceed with the cutting? Or, should I try somehow to get the last remaining quart of oil out of the bottom, and clean it out? Signed: trying not to kill myself. Clean it and vent it. Even if that particular lubricant isn't volatile, the fumes from it could be when exposed to the heat. And even if they aren't explosive, they could be noxious. Volkerball fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 00:00
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sharkytm posted:LOL. I've been doing a lot of decidedly-not-inert hot and cold forging with CP2 lately and it's been... pretty decent, actually. Definitely not much coldwork but I can square up small stock without much trouble. This is an artsy thing, not a Performance Component thing. For my application the oxide layer is fine and actually desirable if I can manage to not blow through the anodization spectrum into boring dull brown-black. I actually already tried what he suggested and I got a bit of flare but the huge friction makes a conforming die-type tool not work out too well so far. I don't have much hope of spinning the tubing cold with any of the tools I have access to, but my thinking is that I could do it safely hot with single-point turning tools, given how nicely Ti localizes heat. If I can get a 3/16" rod red-hot without the stock two inches away getting too hot to hold, my hope is that I could get the front inch of the tubing hot enough to move like butter without the rest of the tubing getting hot n soft enough to do the ol "insufficiently-supported stock bending extremely dangerously and destructively while being turned thanks to centripetal force" trick. Hopefully I could do it at low RPMs as far as spinning is concerned, too. Ambrose Burnside fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 00:12
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Volkerball posted:Clean it and vent it. Even if that particular lubricant isn't volatile, the fumes from it could be when exposed to the heat. And even if they aren't explosive, they could be noxious. Thanks for the reply. I'll see if I can get that last little bit of oil out and then maybe hit it with purple degreaser (something non-flammable) to get most of the remainder. I'll still fill it half full with water, though, just makes me feel better.
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Jan 24, 2017 02:43
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BlankIsBeautiful posted:Thanks for the reply. I'll see if I can get that last little bit of oil out and then maybe hit it with purple degreaser (something non-flammable) to get most of the remainder. I'll still fill it half full with water, though, just makes me feel better. Why not use an angle grinder? I made a drum smoker, and the drum I had available had a non-removable top. But they're just crimped on, if you take an angle grinder and run it around the outside of the lip, just deep enough to go through the first layer of the crimp, you should be able to pop the whole lid off intact afterwards, and reuse it. And the inside won't get hot enough to ignite.
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Jan 24, 2017 05:04
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EKDS5k posted:Why not use an angle grinder? I made a drum smoker, and the drum I had available had a non-removable top. But they're just crimped on, if you take an angle grinder and run it around the outside of the lip, just deep enough to go through the first layer of the crimp, you should be able to pop the whole lid off intact afterwards, and reuse it. And the inside won't get hot enough to ignite. That.. is interesting. I figured the OA would be quicker since finish is not a final criteria. I'm just going to stick an outboard in it. If I was fabricating a smoker, I'd definitely do cleaner work. Regardless, I'll have a look a the drum, and see if that will do the job. Thanks!
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Jan 24, 2017 05:16
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Yeah angle grinder with a slitting disk seems like it would be a quicker, neater less dangerous way to do it.
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Jan 24, 2017 10:56
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Apart from thermite I'd say OA is the worst choice. Anything else would be less risky.
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Jan 24, 2017 11:34
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Don't forget to film it and upload to YouTube. Or, well, get a friend to. From a distance.
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Jan 24, 2017 12:12
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BlankIsBeautiful posted:That.. is interesting. I figured the OA would be quicker since finish is not a final criteria. I'm just going to stick an outboard in it. If I was fabricating a smoker, I'd definitely do cleaner work. Regardless, I'll have a look a the drum, and see if that will do the job. Thanks! Definitely do the angle grinder with cutting disk. You'll be done much quicker, have a better result, and no worries about the volatiles boiling off in the oil and exploding.
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Jan 24, 2017 13:22
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N'thing the cutoff tool. OA looks cool, but is messy and very likely to set it ablaze. If you want it perfectly straight, I'd build a jig to hold the cutoff tool that rests on the lid. I assume you're reinforcing the rim and adding a piece of channel to hold the motors.
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Jan 24, 2017 14:12
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I learned how to repair an anvil this weekend. Before shot, showing how beat up it was :  And the finished product  I made a gallery on Imgur that goes into more detail http://imgur.com/a/nzunV
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Jan 24, 2017 15:09
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sharkytm posted:N'thing the cutoff tool. OA looks cool, but is messy and very likely to set it ablaze. If you want it perfectly straight, I'd build a jig to hold the cutoff tool that rests on the lid. I assume you're reinforcing the rim and adding a piece of channel to hold the motors. Yep, I will be adding some sort of "structure" to the top to allow the motor to be clamped down. 4 "legs" on the bottom to keep it from falling over, and some sort of a drain valve, and that's it. I'll check HF tonight for some sort of a slitting tool that will fit my grinder. If I can't find anything there, I may just resort to a zillion cutoff wheels.
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Jan 25, 2017 00:44
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A single 4.5 inch cutoff should handle the whole thing.
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Jan 25, 2017 02:34
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How do you make a long surface (1-3m), such as the top of a bar or beam, or the bits a lathe moves across, really really flat? I have seen people scrape tables and small objects flat, but not long bars. I imagine you could get parts of it flat, but how they get the whole thing level is a mystery to me.
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Jan 26, 2017 04:11
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Mudfly posted:How do you make a long surface (1-3m), such as the top of a bar or beam, or the bits a lathe moves across, really really flat? If it'll fit (our scrapings range from 30cm up to 2 meters) we start on a surface grinder or blanchard grinder. Then we break out the Biax scraper and finish with a Biax flaker. We have some 2m long whaleback straightedges along with a pretty massive granite plate. On our machines, grinders and such, the carriage assembly is typically long enough that it has an averaging effect so any dips or rises get cancelled out. How it's done on something like a massive gantry mill is beyond me, but when your machine bed is 20 feet long your thermal expansion is going to be larger than whatever your scraping tolerance is. I know what you're asking, say you had a fifty foot long iron beam, it'll be drat near flat using a six foot straight edge, but from one end to the next could vary in height significantly. I'd be very curious to know, especially in regards to a linear rail guide.
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Jan 26, 2017 04:33
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I'm wondering if I can throw together a simple sheet metal roller from some pipes and wooden parts, want to roll my own pipe joints for my dust collection system. Shouldn't require much strength and even small 3/4" diameter pipes should work to make 6" bends right?
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Jan 26, 2017 08:33
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Mudfly posted:How do you make a long surface (1-3m), such as the top of a bar or beam, or the bits a lathe moves across, really really flat? With a big rear end press and a dial indicator. I never ran one, but at my last shop we ran a lot of big bars for combines and other large equipment. We had quite a bit of leeway with straightness, but we had an in house heat treat department, and that op would warp the parts pretty bad. So they would set up the press for the width of the part, and have a dial indicator checking the straightness as it came out. Then you just slide the part through and make sure it's coming out at 0 for the whole length. They'd do that right after they pulled the parts out of the oven. Generally we'd save heat treat for last that way the parts would go out the door as straight as possible. There were also some lathe parts we ran that would do it for you. Like if you have a 2" diameter shaft and you're turning it down to 1.969, it doesn't matter if the 2" shaft is a little bent. It's going to cut a perfectly straight 1.969 shaft out of it. Then it's just a matter of not bending it.
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Jan 26, 2017 09:03
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Mudfly posted:How do you make a long surface (1-3m), such as the top of a bar or beam, or the bits a lathe moves across, really really flat? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOJrhrne80s Basically: really big tables and tools.
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Jan 26, 2017 16:21
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Pagan posted:I learned how to repair an anvil this weekend. I saw that! I liked your writeup on it a lot. Thanks!
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Jan 27, 2017 17:51
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Mudfly posted:How do you make a long surface (1-3m), such as the top of a bar or beam, or the bits a lathe moves across, really really flat? Cool Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/p/BGySzuQkwhR/ https://www.instagram.com/p/BKpxJadAlWj/
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Jan 27, 2017 18:34
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I figure everyone in this thread is already familiar with Clickspring. But if you're not, I hope you weren't planning on doing anything today, and enjoy binging on the best machining videos I've ever seen. Since he's finished the clock project, he's started two new ones. A Byzantine sundial calendar and the Antikythera device.
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Jan 28, 2017 00:20
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Just as a thought experiment, what is the minimum level of technology necessary to make a steam engine capable of actual work? Could you do it with a 1700's era blacksmith shop?
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Jan 28, 2017 00:26
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I dunno man, I kinda feel like clickspring just isn't ambitious enough...
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Jan 28, 2017 00:26
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