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mauman posted:Good ole' magical radiation. Actually, we found out in the previous update that half the island is a wasteland because of the Shaper ancestors' uncontrolled, haphazard shaping attempts. I get the impression the South Workshop just compounds this, stacking poison on existing poison in a more local area.
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Jan 24, 2017 07:50
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Maugrim posted:Actually, we found out in the previous update that half the island is a wasteland because of the Shaper ancestors' uncontrolled, haphazard shaping attempts. I get the impression the South Workshop just compounds this, stacking poison on existing poison in a more local area. Yeah, I know... Though I have a feeling that this place is the worst of the Shaper's crimes here. This is poo poo is basically Chernobyl levels of irresponsibility 
mauman fucked around with this message at 08:31 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 08:29
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Look man, it was temporary, the Sucia shapers were just gonna hit the mainland, talk to the council, and the interim-barring would be rescinded and everything would be hunky-dory. The serviles and stuff can manage on their own for a few months! 
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Jan 24, 2017 08:37
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I've always been a bit confused by Necromancy/Undeath in the Geneforge games. Because it seems to waver between "THERE ARE ACTUAL GHOSTS AND poo poo AND THEY'RE ANGRY" and "oh wait lol its just ADVANCED MAGIC, these are actually still alive and in awful pain, bet u feel bad now." Is it ever actually confirmed whether there's any REAL undeath?
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Jan 24, 2017 11:51
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I don't think so, but I've only completed two of the games, and that was a long time ago. I may have forgotten or missed something.
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Jan 24, 2017 12:50
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PurpleXVI posted:I've always been a bit confused by Necromancy/Undeath in the Geneforge games. Because it seems to waver between "THERE ARE ACTUAL GHOSTS AND poo poo AND THEY'RE ANGRY" and "oh wait lol its just ADVANCED MAGIC, these are actually still alive and in awful pain, bet u feel bad now." According to what we saw a couple updates ago, it's the latter. That is, if the present day Shapers experiments with necromancy at all resembled the old Shapers' methods anyway. And they probably did.
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Jan 24, 2017 15:36
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dont be mean to me posted:Abolish the Shaper state.  Look at this Taker. D&D's over thataway!PurpleXVI posted:I've always been a bit confused by Necromancy/Undeath in the Geneforge games. Because it seems to waver between "THERE ARE ACTUAL GHOSTS AND poo poo AND THEY'RE ANGRY" and "oh wait lol its just ADVANCED MAGIC, these are actually still alive and in awful pain, bet u feel bad now." The games aren't 100% firm on that. We know that the Shaper precursors didn't leave actual undead behind on the island; all those specters and ghosts are predecessors who Shaped themselves to achieve eternal life. Unfortunately, they didn't also Shape sanity in. Why does everyone always forget that step? Several updates ago, we did see journals mentioning the predecessors' "ghosts" as well as referencing the use of necromancy. Clearly, modern Shaper society considers the practice barbaric, so there is necromancy in the world. The Shapers of 200 years ago didn't make much of a study of the natives of Sucia, though, so they were unaware that the ghosts they encountered weren't actually ghosts -- or at least most of the Shapers weren't aware. Maybe a few figured it out without the temple in the spirit city. Don't worry, you'll see more about ghosts. Or "ghosts." Whether the spectral Agents and Guardians are undead or victims of Shaping remains to be seen. LordHippoman posted:So, Maugrim's intended to be sort of a front line tanky creature to defend the ranged ones? Seems like a good pick, especially since the ghosts seem to just appear out of thin air with no real good way to predict them. Unless they have an obvious tell I missed. Glaahks are really good if you're focused on magic shaping. They dish out serious damage and they're sturdy piles of hit points. The only thing which would really improve them would be ranged attack capability. Superior firepower is the way of the Shaper.
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Jan 25, 2017 00:26
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  You pass through another small Shaping chamber. Even it is full of drums. The arrangement makes no sense -- all this waste would have never been left scattered everywhere while the workshop was in use. It would've been stored out of the way, probably deep within one of the many caves or clawbug burrows.   The records area isn't full of leaky drums, but that didn't save these scrolls.  The next spiral is complex enough that you're forced to don the tinker's gloves for the extra boost. The connectors are corroded and some of the fibers have finally snapped.  You wonder at what kind of madman would have eaten in a kitchen located inside a Shaper workshop.   With the local pylons powered up, you order your creations to hang back. Soon the signature pew pew of security pylons blasting specters rings out through the workshop.   The specters are softened up and your team moves in to finish them off.  Now that the nearby chamber is free of spooks, you investigate the eastern doors.   In the first cell, you find your second canister from the workshop. It's in surprisingly good shape. The automatic door might have successfully sealed this room. The canister improves your ability to shape battle alphas. You also obtain an interesting suit of finely forged chainmail from the nearby cabinet. The other two cells have boiling pools of acid in them and very little of use.   The conditions in the nearby apothecary are similarly inimical to life. You creep along the walls and find some pods. Among them are curing pods, which is a great relief, because you've already run out since entering South Workshop. The crystal lattices in the next room have somehow survived the awful gases and prove useful. You wonder why they were cultivated in soil. You've seen them growing from bare stone all over the eastern side of the island. Well, if they'll survive in soil as heavily contaminated as these little plots, the lattices must grow in unusually robust configurations.    You wonder if perhaps these specters did something similar to themselves -- or had something similar done to them -- as the Sucia ancients did. The Shapers of two hundred years ago clearly had the knowledge; the spectral vlish in the High Energy Holding Cells demonstrates that. Moreover, those Shapers didn't have many qualms about Shaping themselves, as shown by the canisters and, it seems, the Geneforge.   You get the pylons back online one at a time and blast a path through all the shades. Even if they're the product of necromancy rather than Shaping gone wrong, they still die like everything else you've faced.  Someone certainly has been here. Ramel isn't entirely deluded.  Somehow, three crystal boxes and a cabinet were left at the far end of a room with more vats in critical condition. You know I've looted every last container no matter how close they are to boiling pits of whatever the heck, right?  You enter this massive hall, the largest in this whole complex. In the center, you see a ghastly specter. It is not the ghost of a Guardian or Agent. It is the spirit of a Shaper, kept in unending unlife by some powerful, horrible magic. Unlife, you say? Hmm... When you enter the hall, it points a finger at you. "I am Corata," it intones. "One of the masters of Sucia Island! You are here now, Shaper, and I bid you to serve me. I need your help." "Help? What sort of help do you want?" you ask. You watch the shade warily. It calls itself Corata, which... you'll just accept. Mind Ramel might be mad after all the years of being trapped inside this pit of horrors, but you decide to finally take its words at face value. Corata is here in front of you, standing at the center of three roughly equidistant Shaping platforms, four quiescent pylons, and four active defense glyphs. Solution could say "Foul shade, I will never help you! Your only peace will be found at the end of my blade," and then she'd be dumped right into combat. It intones its story in flat, slurred tones. "I am one of the three masters of Sucia. When the isle was Barred, I snuck back. I came here with those loyal to me. We wanted the power here, the power of the Geneforge, for ourselves. But we needed the control rod. It was here. So we came here." You wonder if Trajkov knows about the control rod. If so, his efforts to retrieve it have only ended in corpses piled in an alcove. "Then what happened?" "We made a mistake. We didn't think the poison here could affect us. We were wrong. It was much fresher and stronger then than it is now, before the worst of it leaked into the soil." Corata probably wouldn't sound more concerned about that even if he were properly alive. You, however, wince. You've seen firsthand the results of the leaching toxins, and what's more, you actually care. "We didn't see how sick we were getting until we were in too far. Some of us escaped. The rest were warped, changed, held. I, the strongest of all, found the control rod, but was trapped in this horrible form. Those who escaped did no better. I made sure that they died. That was their penalty for leaving me!" A classic tale of hubris and murder. You frown at Corata. He managed only to get himself and his followers trapped here, and killed any who were smart enough to flee. You doubt you'll receive better consideration from this crazed abomination. "And what do you want from me?" Corata suddenly becomes much more animated. "Save me! I can see you have great Shaper power in you! Use it to rebuild my body and restore me to life. End this imprisonment and maddening torment. Then I will give you anything you want!" Despite the offer, his tone is better suited for commanding rather than beseeching. You immediately realize that you can't do what he wants. Nobody can. What he wants, the creation of a Shaper body and filling it with an existing spirit, is impossible. Even to a Shaper, dead is dead. Solution can again tell Corata to eat steel here, or... "Can you tell me why Sucia Isle was Barred?" you ask. You need to buy time until you decide what to do with this creature. He looks furious. His translucent form glows red. "The fools! They did not realize what we had done! We could rewrite any being. Give it incredible power in moments. You know how marvelous this is! I can see you have partaken heavily of the canisters yourself! They thought that power should only be obtained with years of study and control. They wanted all of us to be chained to an eternal treadmill of unnecessary work. So, when we finally completed the Geneforge, they Barred the isle. Curse them!" You're starting to agree with the wisdom of those long-lost Shapers, but as an apprentice looking forward to years of discipline, you're uniquely positioned to see the appeal of obtaining mastery in the blink of an eye. You'd still feel that desire even if you weren't stuck on Sucia Island. "What is the Geneforge?" "Our greatest creation! The cumulative synthesis of all we had achieved. One use of it could elevate a being to near-Godhood! The combined essence of all of our canisters, in one simple device. I was going to use it. I would be the very first. Then they kept me from it, and trapped me here. They will pay, but first I need a new body!" Solution can say, "You are mad. What you want is not possible to any Shaper," and again, fight, or "Let me think. I will go and try to find a way to make you a body," and leave. You nod like all this makes perfect sense, then say, "I know a way to save you. But, to make your body, I need that I control rod you mentioned." "What? You can? You mean that the means of my salvation were in the next room for all these years?" He points to the southwest door. "The rod is there. Bring it and save me. But beware! If you are trying to trick me, oh, how you will pay." Megalomaniacal threats have never been the way to your heart.  In your nervousness, you go the wrong way and discover Corata's private torture dungeon. Yes, I regularly confuse directions in real life and in videogames. Don't make fun of my brain condition!   The insane ghoul immediately conjures up his spectral bodyguards. He doesn't have time for your foolishness, but you make your way around the chamber while your blessed and hasted creations make short work of the shades. You can't get any of the crystal spirals to work. The pylons remain quiet and useless. At least they can't be turned against you.  Game Text posted:The case is stuck. You have to pull hard, and then strike several sharp blows to get it open. The lock had rusted shut. Unfortunately, the Control Rod doesn't work on the devices here. You're certain it will prove useful once you reach Trajkov's lair, though.  Corata summons wave after wave of specters. They fall soundlessly. You hope they aren't suffering, but given how miserable Corata looks, you know that hope is in vain.  RickVoid splatters Corata's glowing form with acid and he falls, dissolves into fumes, and is no more.  Mind Ramel watches you quietly as you approach. "Corata is dead. I killed him. He is gone forever," you say. You aren't sure how to best reassure Ramel that its tormentor is now just another collection of foul gases. "Then I am free. Free at last. I am weak and old and I am over. Over, at last. I am sorry I can serve no more, Shaper. Peace. Sweet peace. Here is the rest of my life," Ramel says. Before you can say anything to stop it, it begins to concentrate. You can almost see the energy flowing out of it, pouring into you. Ramel is not dead. But his mind is gone. Ramel rewards us with an additional point in each of our base stats. But it's a ghoulish reward, isn't it?  You collect your creations and hastily retreat from South Workshop. Destroying Corata won't clear the air or undo centuries of slow poisoning, but now no one will lure passersby into the ruin. If you had the power, you would bury the place under the mountain it was dug into. Corata dropped this rad shield. Solution swaps it for the  You briefly stop at the border of Pentil to create an additional glaahk. You sense that you'll need the extra muscle where you're going.  Next time: Practice Freedom
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Jan 25, 2017 01:25
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Alright, so, like, important disclaimer so you don't get me wrong; the Shapers are dicks and their treatment of the Serviles is abhorrent. I normally wouldn't include this kind of disclaimer when discussing video game ethics but as others have pointed out in this thread, the Shaper-Servile relationship is very well written and really calls to mind some of the more perverse injustices in our real shared history as Humans. So, like, don't misconstrue this post as support for the Shapers overall or the IRL factions and individuals that in part inspired them. That said, I do think some of us in the thread are a bit quick to judge them. Remember that what we are seeing in Sucia are the remnants of immoral and/or irresponsible practices that have been extinct for centuries or more. Yeah, the creation arena is barbaric, but bullfighting is something that goes on right now to this very day. To criticize the Shapers because some of their ancestors did awful things to animals is silly, especially when they have completely stopped that practice - in that respect they are our moral betters. And, yeah, leaving the magic waste unsecured like that was a bad move, but it's pretty clear they really did expect the Barring to be temporary. It's also pretty clear that the Shapers of Sucia were pretty irresponsible and radical in general and are probably not our best indicators of how careful the average Shaper is. Like, yes, the Shapers wield enormous power with enormous potential for harm, and yes we see some of the major disasters that result from its misuse, but one of the things the game - and the sequels - constantly hammer home is that the Shapers are keenly aware of this. Self-control, responsibility, and an awareness of the dangers of misuse of shaping are all things that Shapers have constantly hammered into them. Like the impression I've gotten so far from the series is that, yeah, the Shapers have made some huge gently caress-ups in the past but they have learned from them, and genuinely are trying to wield their powers in the most responsible and safe way that they can. Now, how they treat the Serviles, on the other hand... Seriously, though, it's this complexity and moral nuance that's part of what makes the series work so well. The Shapers are privileged fuckers, but they are nuanced and you can see, if not necessarily support, where they are coming from in most regards.
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Jan 25, 2017 01:31
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:stuff. I agree with you on most points. The Shapers (the main ones, not the radicals like the island ones) USUALLY do the best job of controlling shaper magic, and keep it in check (NOT EASY). They just happen to be massive dicks. Sometimes though, being massive dicks just happens to save the day when it comes to the potential disasters that shaping magic could unfold. Perhaps there's a better way, but who knows. That being said, the power plant was one HELL of a gently caress-up. Also, you shouldn't need to put such a disclaimer up like that. If somebody is going to take offense over discussion of a work of fiction, they're probably pretty stupid to begin with. Though I understand why you wrote it...people are so easily upset nowadays over such stupid things mauman fucked around with this message at 03:58 on Jan 25, 2017 |
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Jan 25, 2017 03:44
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I have to hesitantly agree. There's really no putting the Shaping genie back in the bottle at this point short of genociding the Shapers and even then you're only just delaying the inevitable. Someone WILL rebuild their work sooner or later. So control seems the only viable path forward. How to best do that on the other hand...
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Jan 25, 2017 03:55
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Captain Oblivious posted:I have to hesitantly agree. There's really no putting the Shaping genie back in the bottle at this point short of genociding the Shapers and even then you're only just delaying the inevitable. Someone WILL rebuild their work sooner or later. I think the only really "correct" (correct as in safest, definitely not moral) choice would have been to GLASS the whole loving island and everybody on it. Oh yeah, and by everybody I mean everybody - shapers, creations, the janitorial staff - EVERYBODY. Now finding a moral (and safe) choice to this whole situation..... Tricky. You are definitely right that somebody would eventually figure out the geneforge again, but it would have been from scratch rather than somebody literally stumbling onto the drat thing. Could have taken thousands of years. This whole situation is seriously stupid, it's basically the equivalent of burying your worst weapon of mass destruction in a little known ditch just outside your border, and being shocked when someone stumbles upon it and nukes you back to the stone-age. I guess what I'm trying to say is the irony of the situation is that the Shapers weren't big enough dicks when it came to dealing with this mess. If they had gone full  this mess would never have happened (or at least it wouldn't have happened for a VERY long time).
mauman fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Jan 25, 2017 |
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Jan 25, 2017 04:16
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The most logical explanation is that they assumed they might need the thing again someday, and didn't want to destroy it. That said, they should have sent people to guard the island; they seem to have assumed that just labelling it barred was enough to keep people away. (Maybe they're just arrogant enough to assume that their word will have that effect without any further enforcement.)
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Jan 25, 2017 04:53
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Also the Shapers are very, very clearly uncomfortable with actually destroying knowledge. Making it require extensive qualification to see is one thing, but destroying it seems like a sacrilege to their culture.
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Jan 25, 2017 04:54
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Night10194 posted:Also the Shapers are very, very clearly uncomfortable with actually destroying knowledge. Making it require extensive qualification to see is one thing, but destroying it seems like a sacrilege to their culture. and THAT is the primary problem with Shapers They are a very proud people. If they had a bit more humility and the ability to let things truly go a lot of the conflicts in this series would not have happened. mauman fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Jan 25, 2017 |
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Jan 25, 2017 05:08
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I don't know if dude was just mad and desperate, or if he thinks the power of the Geneforge is going to make getting a body back just, like, snap-snap simple. The more we learn about this thing the more dangerous it sounds.
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Jan 25, 2017 05:47
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Glazius posted:I don't know if dude was just mad and desperate, or if he thinks the power of the Geneforge is going to make getting a body back just, like, snap-snap simple. Look at it this way: the locals learned how to use magic to manipulate DNA, with predictable results. "Predictable results" is the important thing here, since the Shapers don't actually know how Shaping works -- it takes tons and tons of trial and error with relatively crude methods to make a new kind of creation. This is the missing ingredient to overcoming all limits on Shaping, so of course, they used it to make the world's biggest canister. This canister Shapes you into a living god of Shaping and Sorcery. Do you think the people who decided to use the greatest of all possible medical breakthroughs to make a bigger gun are sane?
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Jan 25, 2017 06:42
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idonotlikepeas posted:they seem to have assumed that just labelling it barred was enough to keep people away. (Maybe they're just arrogant enough to assume that their word will have that effect without any further enforcement.) At least from what we have seen and heard so far, it really is. Crossing the Shapers is suicidal, and people outside of the Shapers guild seem to have an unclear idea of what the limits of Shaper power really are. I would guess this is partially deliberately cultivated by the shapers (agents in particular) and partially because even the Shapers themselves don't really know. Either way, no one is eager to cross an organization of seemingly unlimited, godlike power. The only reason that after two hundred years someone broke the barring was that they were foreigners who had know way of knowing what they were doing. Glazius posted:I don't know if dude was just mad and desperate, or if he thinks the power of the Geneforge is going to make getting a body back just, like, snap-snap simple. Shades seem to be either basically mindless or utterly mad.
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Jan 25, 2017 07:22
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Corata's shade was mad, desperate, and suffering endless torment. We did the guy a solid by finishing him off after he became a radiation zombie.
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Jan 25, 2017 16:59
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Glazius posted:I don't know if dude was just mad and desperate, or if he thinks the power of the Geneforge is going to make getting a body back just, like, snap-snap simple. Consider: wiegieman posted:This is the missing ingredient to overcoming all limits on Shaping, so of course, they used it to make the world's biggest canister. This canister Shapes you into a living god of Shaping and Sorcery. Shapers are already capable of making bodies de novo - it happens every time Solution makes a creation. Making one around the core that a Shade provides would be tricky. Integrating the shade into the body would be much trickier. As we've established, doing so without the laborious trial-and-error approach of the Shapers would be near impossible without the ability to make directed changes - but the Geneforge apparently lets you do just that, so in that light the plan actually sounds maybe-kinda-sorta plausible. Granted, the description of it as The Biggest Canister Ever implies The Biggest Dose Of Canister Side-Effects Ever, so it's likely that anybody who juiced themselves up with the Geneforge might be too busy doing their best Emperor Palpatine impression to follow through on the bargain. (Also, can be their own nightlight.) edit: On this point - wiegieman posted:Do you think the people who decided to use the greatest of all possible medical breakthroughs to make a bigger gun are sane? I don't know that I agree. The impression I got (especially from the name) is that the most important thing the Geneforge did was endow you with the trick that the Shapers learned - how to manipulate DNA directly. In essence (and in a possibly-very-clever nod to the definition of 'gene'), I was under the assumption that the Geneforge propagates itself. And once you have that power, yeah, sure, you can be a gun! Or you could be a scalpel, or a bandage, or any number of other things. The Geneforge grants power, but power is only as moral or immoral as the ends to which it's turned. (there is the whole canister-megalomania thing, of course, but I think maybe the Shapers of Sucia were too heavily influenced by their canister-megalomania to notice their growing canister-megalomania) vdate fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Jan 25, 2017 |
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Jan 25, 2017 17:18
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The Glaahks seem to be faring way better than any other meatshield we've tried. That's fairly impressive in itself. How is that paralyzing poison their description mentions? Useful? Not useful? I'd guess it didn't work on spooky ghosts.
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Jan 25, 2017 19:28
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Captain Oblivious posted:The Glaahks seem to be faring way better than any other meatshield we've tried. That's fairly impressive in itself. It's the stun effect rather than a new status. It works, but the lack of an additional chip damage status like the artila has means it's nothing special.
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Jan 25, 2017 19:43
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vdate posted:I don't know that I agree. The impression I got (especially from the name) is that the most important thing the Geneforge did was endow you with the trick that the Shapers learned - how to manipulate DNA directly. In essence (and in a possibly-very-clever nod to the definition of 'gene'), I was under the assumption that the Geneforge propagates itself. And once you have that power, yeah, sure, you can be a gun! Or you could be a scalpel, or a bandage, or any number of other things. The Geneforge grants power, but power is only as moral or immoral as the ends to which it's turned. The megalomania is exactly why it's terrifying though: a few canisters isn't worth the trouble of using, since the knowledge they grant on an individual basis isn't terribly impressive. You *need* to use a large number of canisters, and that will always affect the mental state of the person using them. Hell, look at Solution: she didn't know how to shape a Fyora before coming here, and was concerned entirely with finding a boat so this could all be someone else's problem. Now, she's perfectly at ease with deciding the fate of an entire population, and maybe even the world.
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Jan 25, 2017 19:43
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thetruegentleman posted:Hell, look at Solution: she didn't know how to shape a Fyora before coming here, and was concerned entirely with finding a boat so this could all be someone else's problem. Now, she's perfectly at ease with deciding the fate of an entire population, and maybe even the world. So does it count as character development if your character is altered by external means? Seriously though, remove the canisters and Solution's actions still look plausible -- she's stranded on an island, and initially cares only to get off (is self-absorbed), but as she learns more about the history of the island and the plights of its occupants, she becomes more invested in actually solving problems. It's a reasonably classic character arc. The more you interact with someone or something, the more invested you become in making sure that the person/thing turns out for the best.So far as I can tell, the main effect of canisters has been to dictate how gentle Solution is about manipulating people and how easily she handles being forced to be ruthless. The fact that she must still manipulate people and kill things to achieve her goals is invariant, and the goals themselves have not been dictated by the canisters. If you look at the bicentennial Shapers, though, you see more selfish motivation. They might have been trying to push forward the boundaries of Shaper knowledge, but it's clear that Corata at least wanted personal power. Dose someone like that with canisters, and they might go from "even though I want to be in charge of this organization, I'm not willing to push someone under the bus to achieve that" to "I'm willing to do or say anything if it means I get more power."
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Jan 25, 2017 19:58
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Practice Freedom "To practice death is to practice freedom. A man who has learned how to die has unlearned how to be a slave," Michel de Montaigne, The Complete Essays.  Game Text posted:These tunnels are very unusual. They are clearly quite old, but nowhere near as old as the other ruins you've found on Sucia Island. They were probably constructed a century ago, maybe bit more.  Your first encounter is with a strapping battle alpha. Putting it down requires the combined efforts of most of your creations, which doesn't bode well for your time here. The noises you hear from the tunnels indicate that you should expect more than a lone alpha now and then.  This servant mind was clearly made to live a long time. It's the hardy variety, with a thick skin and a predisposition to sleep as much as possible. Alas, it was poorly made. It is unconscious, probably from lack of nourishment. You prod it with your finger, but you can't get it to wake up. It probably needs to be fed. You open one of your jars of nutrients and carefully feed the servant mind. Even after it has eaten, it takes several minutes for it to return to consciousness. It looks up at you sleepily. "Thank you, Shaper. I am grateful. When the makers of the crypt left, they forgot to feed me extra and my metabolism is not as efficient as it could be. I am Emarshal. I am the greeting mind for this crypt." It speaks slowly and slurs its speech. It clearly wants to get back to sleep. "What is this place?" you ask. "This is a crypt." It yawns. You sigh. "Yes, but for who?" "For the great Shapers of Sucia Island. The ones who learned and discovered, Danette and Defniel, and the others," Emarshal says. "What others?" Emarshal starts to recite along, droning list of names. None of them are familiar. After a few minutes, you make it stop. "How was this crypt built? Wasn't the island Barred?" "Yes, but Danette and the others felt a pull to this place all their lives. When their times were coming to an end, they snuck back to make this place. They wanted their final rest to be here, the site of their great work." That makes sense. For a truly learned Shaper, the only appropriate way to be buried is surrounded by the work of one's life. That is why Shaper crypts almost always contain books of the knowledge the corpse discovered in life. You've already studied at several of these. However much sense it makes, though, the builders of this crypt were clearly in the wrong. Returning here was a crime against the Shapers and the denizens of Sucia Island and it was all for the ego of a bunch of researchers whose work got the entire landmass Barred. "Who was Danette?" you ask, keeping your tone neutral. Emarshal isn't at fault, and you doubt that voicing your disapproval would do anything besides make the servant mind more difficult to deal with. "The great researcher. The creator of the Geneforge. The mistress and director of all learning here." Interesting. Corata claimed he was the Geneforge's creator. Clearly, the old Shapers had as much trouble sharing credit for their work as do the present ones. Some things just don't change. "Who was Defniel?" "The teacher, and the administrator. He taught the new Shapers who came to work here, and he looked after the day to day operations of the island." Emarshal nods off for a moment. You poke it, and it wakes up. "It was difficult and thankless work, but it made everything that happened here possible." You wonder if Defniel would be so eager for that credit if he could see how things turned out here. "I have another question." Emarshal looks up at you drowsily. "Anything else, Shaper?" It is clearly eager to go back to sleep. "What sort of traps does this crypt have?" you ask. "Danette created many guardians for her crypt. She knew that looters would come to take what is secured here. There are creations and, further in, worse." Well, you're here to loot, and you don't particularly care about Danette's feelings. She's dead, and you're trapped in the mire she's left behind. "Can you deactivate the traps?" "I am sorry. Danette commanded me to provide information, but not to deactivate the traps." "Danette told you not to deactivate the traps? So that means that you can deactivate them." If Emarshal has the ability, then all you have to do is convince him to use it. Emarshal looks nervous. Disobeying the orders of a Shaper is not something servant minds can generally do, even if those orders contradict the orders of an earlier Shaper. "Well, not all the traps. Danette wisely left most things out of my control. But I can turn off some of the pylons. If you want. But I hope you don't." Of course she did. "Turn them off immediately." Dealing with pylons isn't worth sparing Emarshal some dismay. Emarshal looks disturbed. It closes its eyes for a moment. "Yes, Shaper. It is done." You don't like this servant mind very much, but that's hardly its fault. You just have to keep reminding yourself of that. The mind has had no input into the old Shapers violating the Bar and building this monument to themselves. "That is all," you say. "Yes, Sha..." It almost immediately falls asleep. You check the nearby cabinets. Their insides are bare. There isn't even dust.   You head south and locate an old cloakroom. The writing on the walls is illegible, but this must have been some sort of stopping point for visitors. You can't imagine why the Shapers built this -- no one was going to visit their tomb on a Barred island, and even if a visitor had come, they'd have been greeted by hostile creations like the battle alpha. Geokinesis shrills an alarm. A glaahk approaches from the west, and from the north, something much more dreadful -- a drayk. More hostile guards. Pumpinglemma eliminates the first glaahk after a brief exchange. The vlish trio destroys the drayk. A second guardian glaahk appears from the western tunnel and lays into pumpinglemma, but your glaahk holds fast. While your artilas respond with their customary acid, the hostile glaahk shudders and emits some sort of rank belch from its maw; it dissipates without harming your team, but you're sure it's some sort of defensive mechanism you haven't yet seen in glaahks. Pretty much all of the creations you'll encounter in the Shaper Crypt have some form of extra ability that they can use freely. I don't know if each type has access to something specific, or if all of them can select from the list. Multi-target terror and multi-target poison status are the main two, but drayks can also regenerate health. The other thing to know about this challenge dungeon is that the foes respawn infinitely. They drop decent money and some valuable equipment. The enemies' high levels makes this dungeon the only viable end-game grinding area, though I think that if you really need to grind to complete this game on normal difficulty, your build is really messed up. Offscreen, I zone out of this area several times to drop off heavy loot. Solution's low strength means that she can't carry much, and equipped items count against that weight total. Popping in and out is also a more item efficient way of restoring the party. I mostly don't comment on this practice in the narrative, but it's a good trick to use if you're playing along.   You head north, past the servant mind's chamber and through a small opening in the cavern wall that was probably intended to be a doorway. Almost as soon as you're through, a battle alpha charges into your formation. Another alpha follows. Pumpinglemma hisses, warning of a third. You seem to have walked right into an ambush. The battle alphas are just as weak to your vlish's terror attacks as their counterparts outside. Maugrim slays the one that made it into your midst while it stands frozen in fear. The others flee, but not before placid saviour and RickVoid coat them in acid.   Two sarcophagi are tucked into this nook. You're about to investigate the book by the nearest one when a glaahk rounds the corner. Maugrim flicks its tail and hisses a challenge. The hostile glaahk doesn't even leave a mark; you bless your creations, and Maugrim strikes the glaahk down in a single blow.  There's not much time to study what this Shaper left behind, but you do your best to commit their writings to memory. Another point of Battle Magic? Fabulous!    A strange, high-pitched vibration echoes from the tunnels you've just left. An icy chill shivers down your spine. It's not the same sensation that preceded those spectral Shapers, but it does feel like something trying to intimidate you... There's a hint of motion around the southern corner, then two glaahks skitter forward, followed by another battle alpha. You're about to direct all your creations to face them when you see a drayk moving in from the north. You've been trapped.  But the trap works both ways. You cast speed on your team. The rapid decrease in reaction time turns them into efficient killing machines. The battle alpha falls first, unable to resist the magic of your terror vlish. TooMuchAbs turns on the drayk next, seizing control of its senses before it can spit fire on you or your creations. Maugrim puts the drayk down with a punishing slash. Then it's just a matter of taking on the two glaahks.  The nearest charges between RickVoid and placid saviour. Its resilient exoskeleton renders their bites harmless. Another glaahk approaches pumpinglemma, who ignores the challenger for the moment.   Your artilas retreat into the corridor and soften the glaahks up; then the vlish take turns crushing what remains. Maugrim, ever vigilant, charges north and just out of sight. Two glaahks and a drayk appear -- the first two walk into plain sight, but the drayk you can only identify by the sound of its mindless snarling. No Shaper made these drayks. These are fully feral. You can feel Maugrim's shock. Whatever exchange is taking place just out of sight isn't going in yours or its favor.  You push your creations north to relieve Maugrim and leave a pile of ruined glaahks in your wake. The drayk flees under the influence of your vlish.  You hole up in a dead-end chamber. One of the sarcophagi has been crushed, but you can't tell by what. The book by the other is intact; whoever was interred here advanced the study of fire creations. Trying to skim these ancient works for easily condensed tips dismays you, but you need whatever advantages you can get. You take a moment to heal the worst of Maugrim's wounds before moving on.  Game Text posted:This tall, smoky chamber contains an impressive array of Shaper machinery. There are stone platforms, charged pylons, and detailed magical inscriptions. There's no way to disable these mechanical spawners as far as I know. You might as well come here and loot, though -- I've never seen a creature spawn on-screen here, so it's no more dangerous than the rest of the crypt.  You snag the piles of Shaper equipment on the first workbench you see before daring to go further. The musty air here smells a little sweet like ozone and a little smoky like heated crystal fibers. Unlike much of the rest of the crypt, this area is well-light by the motion-sensing floor lamps.   Maugrim rushes forward and smashes into the first glaahk. A drayk blasts Maugrim with fire so hot that you can feel your eyebrows curl even as far back as you are. Pumpinglemma hurls itself into the fray, but it's too late -- the hostile glaahk exhales foul breath of such concentration that Maugrim starts melting even before it dies, the combination of extensive burns and acid proving too much for your creation. You would weep, but there is no time, and this, you finally accept, is nothing short of war. There is no space for tears or grief, only the methodical violence necessary to ensure your survival. The glaahk's acrid breath clings to your skin, slowly eating away, but you're not already compromised by wounds and have time to neutralize it while your creations destroy Maugrim's killers.  If only those were the last guards you'll encounter here. More come for your blood, stretching themselves thin just to get a taste.  Pumpinglemma charges through, passing the first glaahk as it falls to the magic of artilas and vlish.  The drayk retreats, wings dragging along the floor and smearing blood into the ancient tile. Your vlish turn their psychic attacks against a battle alpha. It falls, shattered by the fury of your creations.  You turn south in search of the way you came. You pass one of the deactivated defense pylons and spare a grateful thought for Emarshal and the carelessness of dead Shapers.  There's a single tome in the center of this room; it's too much temptation to pass it up. But you don't get to pause to so much as look at a page before a pair of drayks roar at you from the other end of the chamber.   You have your vlish spread their efforts among the three drayks. Pumpinglemma slays one of the duo, and the third flees thanks to the terror vlish.  A fourth drayk reveals itself and you snap out another speed spell. Your hands shake; you're burning through essence just to keep your creations alive -- at least, most of your creations alive.  Pumpinglemma holds the line while Talow turns back, whip-like, to strike down the drayk sneaking up behind you.  It flees, but another drayk and a glaahk replace it. They don't give you any time or space to breathe. RickVoid and placid saviour do what they do best and you start to think that you might get out of here without losing anyone else.  Pumpinglemma has killed three drayks and yet there's another one here, drooling its lust for intruder flesh. They don't care that you're a Shaper, they only care that you're fresh and made of meat.  You don't know if it dies or flees. Pumpinglemma charges the dying drayk left paralyzed by your vlish's relentless spells and prepares to go at another. The glaahk limps past your artilas, either fleeing slowly or trying to flank pumpinglemma. You can't be sure.  But it dies. They all die.    Even if the defenders won't stop coming, each one that steps up dies.  When one more drayk falls, you recklessly hurl yourself at the pedestal and read, furiously flipping through the pages. Game Text posted:Each page of this book has a name, a date of birth, a date of death, and the words 'Inner Crypt' or 'Outer Crypt'. The first two pages are for Danette and Defniel. None of the names on the rest of the pages are familiar. The book has about a hundred pages. It's a directory. It's useless. How many fools snuck back here? Did the Shapers of old have no shame?  You're forced to slay two more drayks before you go. If only there were a way to destroy the spawners here... but you're exhausted. You turn back. In Pentil, the news of your defection has finally percolated through the Obeyers. As you enter, you start to hear quiet muttering. Though all serviles here look at you with awe and fear, there is something else there too. They are very uncomfortable. As you walk past a pair of guards, you hear one of them whisper to the other, "The Shaper is one of the Awakened. The Shaper is not true. What do we do? Do we obey?" The other guard shakes his head, having no idea.  You sneak back to the dusty, winding road. It's easier than returning to the crypt or remaining in Pentil among the terrified Obeyers. You never found that battle beta, after all. You should do something about that.   The search hits a couple dead ends before you pick up the trail.   The wounded battle beta lunges out of the trees where it has lain in wait for you. Alone, though, it doesn't pose much of a threat. You've dealt with much worse.   Your vlish form a triangle around the beta and torment it with terror. RickVoid finishes off the cowering rogue. You pity it; the beta's creators abandoned it here, heedless of its suffering and the suffering it inflicted on the serviles. Back at the tinker serviles' home, you approach Flig. "The wounded battle beta is dead." "Thank you, Shaper. Thank you. Lives better for me and bonded. You are kind to us." She leaves the room for a minute, and then returns. "There is door back there." Flig points at a corridor to the south. "Would not open. Now will. Good things for you past it."  Your good deed comes with mighty rewards, the best of which is another canister. This one improves your mass energize spell. You collect the crystals and pods and count yourself quite lucky.  Your next order of business is to replenish your ranks once again. Dmar will surely serve you well. You hope you'll be able to keep it safe in kind. Next time: Part 2
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Jan 30, 2017 19:13
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I'm impressed. Our motley band of Chthonian magic shaping minions held up really quite well against what was obviously a hellish endurance match.
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Jan 30, 2017 20:52
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 You return to the Shaper's Crypt knowing that your work there is not yet done. Part of you yearns to see what was so important to Danette and Defniel that they defied the isle's Barring to inter themselves here. You know, though, that nothing justifies the transgression, and a more vengeful voice in your heart wants to unmake their monuments and leave the tomb as nothing but a rubble-strewn cave. It's not as though the Shapers even properly completed the crypt.   You locate the old mortuary, where either some skilled human follower or well-trained serviles once prepared the bodies of Shapers for interring. Game Text posted:This vat is empty. It still smells faintly of formaldehyde. There's not any notable loot in these rooms, but they do give a little background on Shaper mortuary practices.   Another patrol catches you by the directory. This one room appears to be the most dangerous in the entire crypt -- so many passages meet here that it's impossible to slip past undetected.   Nevertheless, you're able to wade through the crypt creations and visit more sarcophagi.   The shaping belt is of particular interest, but you also find large caches of coin left in the funerary vases and the sarcophagi. The gold's a little unusual -- wealth isn't usually entombed with the dead.  Back south, you cross what appear to be auxiliary spawners. No creations appear while you're nearby. To your disappointment, there are no control panels or visible power crystals around to disrupt.  In fact, the only crystal you find has already been shattered. The Guardian statues didn't save it from whatever creation went berserk back here.   Another clutch of drayks catches up to you near some dusty old slabs.   Dmar holds them off while you bless your creations and direct the vlish. Terror spells clutch at the guard drayks' hearts and successfully paralyze one. Another drayk falls, utterly overcome by fear.  You quickly duck into the burial alcove and read through an intact book; what you're able to absorb in these frantic, stolen moments improves your grasp of mental magic. If you had more time, you're sure the principles written here would make even you a virtuoso in the arts of stealing hearts and minds.   There's never enough time. Another pair of patrols catches you in a pincer attack while Dmar and pumpinglemma finish off the drayks.   Speed helps the vlish coordinate a series of assaults meant to thin the herd. RickVoid and placid saviour assure the imminent demise of another drayk that managed to pass your glaahks to menace TooMuchAbs. Pumpinglemma shreds another glaahk, leaving you clear to focus on the rest of the guards in the northern passage.  You find an inactive pylon here. True to Emarshal's word, the crypt pylon remains quiescent. Its support against the patrols would have been welcome, but at least you don't need to fight it. If you don't feed Emarshal, these pylons will remain hostile. Honestly, it's fair to decide that using one of your limited mind nutrient items on him isn't worthwhile. There aren't any other rewards for feeding him.   The patrols seem endless. You've lost count of how many drayks, glaahks, and battle creations you've slain.  These rotten tunnels are merely a series of ambushes.   A narrow corridor leads you to a doorway flanked by cold braziers and cracked pillars.  A racket from behind warns you about what's coming.    The battle gamma slams its bulk against the vlish, but they wobble away with very little harm done. The gamma exhales a foul gas, but it does little more than offend your nose. Without waiting for the drayk to strike, you cast speed on your creations. They swiftly take out the drayk, the gamma, and then focus on a third interloper -- a guard glaahk.  Game Text posted:You notice one interesting detail of the Shaper symbol on the west wall. In the middle of it, someone has set a plain, gray stone crescent, about 5 inches high. It looks like it was slid into a hole carefully carved for it.    A large patrol shows up mere minutes after the last. The alpha falls first, dropping what looks suspiciously like another Shaper's belt. You direct pumpinglemma against the glaahks and drayk while you withdraw the rest of your team from the tight northern hallway, but...  The glaahks meet pumpinglemma with vicious strikes, incapacitating it. The drayk breathes white-hot fire that finishes your glaahk off. The corridor fills with reeking smoke that clings to your skin. The other guard creations don't last much longer; the drayk, half dead and surrounded by the corpses of its companions, turns tail to flee.   You position your team so that you can check the southern passage. Another battle alpha charges, but this time, you're the target. It takes a swing...  And it whiffs in time for a vlish to send it screaming south into the chamber you want to investigate. You follow. Game Text posted:You notice one interesting detail of the Shaper symbol on the west wall. It has a hole in the middle, in the shape of a crescent, about 5 inches high. The hole is about half an inch deep. You have a crescent stone that matches the one in the northern chamber. This must be some sort of lock system devised by the Shapers here. It's not a very secure means of keeping this crypt closed if any lucky fool can pick up one of the keys. You put the crescent in the hollow. Game Text posted:The crescent is a perfect fit. With a humming sound, it fuses itself into the hole.  The door slides open, inviting you to set foot on a brick path. But you've got more to do before you investigate this inner crypt.    The chambers here wrap around a core of stone. Each corner has its own dead essence pool. More interesting is the branch to the south that leads to another guard patrol.  RickVoid slays another glaahk. You're astonished but grateful that your artilas are still alive. For some of your earliest creations, they've also proven among your most long-lived. You're glad you chose not to absorb them. The infinite, hostile creations here do not all seem to be the same level, not even within a given species. Sometimes you'll get experience and sometimes you won't. That doesn't have much bearing on how difficult a given enemy is to kill, though -- these guys are absolute piles of HP. The drayks in particular have around 400 HP each.   When the last drayk falls, you step into the chamber and discover another pair of sarcophagi. You wonder if it's significant that so many of these Shapers were interred side by side. You're able to steal a few precious minutes to study a text here and learn more about battle shaping. Perhaps you'll be able to make your own battle gammas soon.  You find a small, filthy room to the southeast that must have once served as servile quarters. There's little of note left here but a living tool, but the surviving automatic door provides some safety. You shape a new glaahk to stand in pumpinglemma's stead. This one you name wedgekree.    The last corners of the Shaper crypt's outer chambers reveal no more secrets. Between ambushes, you uncover more caches of coins, an enchanted cloak, and a small gallery of long-forgotten statuary. They look much like the works you saw collecting dust back in Kazg, so much so that you wonder if the same artist crafted all of them.   As difficult, slow, and frustrating as it is, this first part of the challenge dungeon is very profitable. The little jars and coffins contain beaucoup bucks and equipment, and there are several sarcophagi that confer ability bonuses. Even better, almost all of the random encounters drop money and have a chance to drop a nice piece of vendor trash like steel daggers, stability belts, Shaper robes, singing blades, and so on.  It's time to go further in. Next time: Barred POOL IS CLOSED fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Jan 30, 2017 |
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Jan 30, 2017 21:27
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God, gently caress the Shaper Crypt and its infinite respawning enemies. I think this was about where the game broke me of my need to explore every corner of every area and made me just want to FINISH it.
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Jan 30, 2017 21:32
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Captain Oblivious posted:I'm impressed. Our motley band of Chthonian magic shaping minions held up really quite well against what was obviously a hellish endurance match. We've only just reached the halfway point, too. This (wholly optional!) dungeon is designed to punish completionists. (e. see above post for evidence!  )There are ways to make it easier. Come in with your best creations, keep haste up for every encounter, and make liberal use of corners to break line of sight after attacking enemies. Mental magic effects can really do some heavy lifting here, because what you need most during these fights is crowd control. Terror and domination are the only real options you have for that. That's why the terror vlish own here. You don't want to be bogged down in long encounters, because more patrols will spawn and crawl right up ye olde butte. If there's a hard limit to the number of creatures that can be on this map at once, I don't know what it is, but I suspect the number is unreasonably high. I also don't know if having spawner platforms on-screen will prevent creations from spawning on them, but it hardly matters when you can't have all platforms visible at once.
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Jan 30, 2017 21:32
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"Glaahk on glaahk violence"? Really?  ( )
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Jan 30, 2017 22:13
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:"Glaahk on glaahk violence"? Really? Bad political slogans are top-of-mind lately. My bad.
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Jan 30, 2017 22:24
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Loner agents also do very well if you know how to game the combat system. Just don't get cornered But yeah, we're being awfully ballsy to do the shaper crypt this early.
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Jan 30, 2017 22:58
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Yeah, I've tried this place like three times now and every single time my Shaper has been the only member of my team to make it out. I never even make it past the first few chambers before AoE fear incapacitates my team long enough for drayks to torch them and battle alpha/betas to grind them into paste.
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Jan 30, 2017 23:31
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Wow. That's actually kind of amazing, that, like, dozens and dozens of Shapers went back to be buried.
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Jan 31, 2017 01:11
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:We've only just reached the halfway point, too. This (wholly optional!) dungeon is designed to punish completionists. (e. see above post for evidence! 1.) You can push through to the end. This is basically all about endurance - the groups of Alpha/Glaahk/Drayk that spawn right near the exit are basically the same as the group that can spawn right at the entrance. So if you know where you're headed, you can beeline to the back exit and clear the zone. This gives you two options to escape if you're in trouble (handy) and also can make it easier to clean out certain sections by 'entering' through the back. 2.) Another option is to just focus on looting a few of the closest rooms. Getting to the 2-3 closest rooms isn't a great challenge given that you can spam your whole arsenal, so you can rush in, grab some poo poo and bail. 3.) This optional dungeon is intended as a pure challenge dungeon. It's really end-game content, so if you're trying it early, don't hold back on limited use things like spores, pods, etc, because if you can handle this, you can probably handle almost anything else the game has to throw at you. Also, as a side note, IIRC the Pylons here are actually the least of your worries. If you can survive endless 400 HP Drayks, Glaahks and Alphas, the Pylons (which don't respawn) are basically a speed bump. Or you could just run around corners to dodge them. I seem to remember there are more minds who need food than nutrients available, so this is probably a good one to skip out on feeding if you're running low. Glazius posted:Wow. That's actually kind of amazing, that, like, dozens and dozens of Shapers went back to be buried.
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Jan 31, 2017 01:21
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MagusofStars posted:A few other things to make it easier: Oh yeah, the pylons aren't nearly as bad as the first time you encountered them, which means what I did (using nutrients) is actually kind of a waste. I wanted to show off that extra dialogue, though!  Mind if I include your advice for the archived version in the future?
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Jan 31, 2017 01:45
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:We've only just reached the halfway point, too. This (wholly optional!) dungeon is designed to punish completionists. (e. see above post for evidence! If ever there was a reason to import Quickfire into this game series, this would be it. Seal off the entrance, set the fire, wait out everything to burn to death, XP be damned, then dealing with the Quickfire damage is easier to handle than constant combat as you cross the map.
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Jan 31, 2017 02:56
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Speaking of Mind Nutrients, how many jars are actually available through the game, and how many are needed to revive every mind? Is it possible to get enough for every "hungry" mind or do you actually have to make a decision on who to revive(beyond the immediate of not having found any more nutrients yet, but maybe having two hungry minds found)?
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Jan 31, 2017 08:31
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PurpleXVI posted:Speaking of Mind Nutrients, how many jars are actually available through the game, and how many are needed to revive every mind? Is it possible to get enough for every "hungry" mind or do you actually have to make a decision on who to revive(beyond the immediate of not having found any more nutrients yet, but maybe having two hungry minds found)? I was wondering this as well.
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Jan 31, 2017 08:35
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If I recall correctly, there's enough to activate all of the minds.
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Jan 31, 2017 08:51
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