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Ardennes posted:"Finlandize" 
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Jan 23, 2017 05:10
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LemonDrizzle posted:Even trivial barriers can be enough to stop large numbers of people from doing something stupid/obnoxious just for the lols. I understand that it's an attempt to institute a psychological barrier, but that's change you find on the street, come on. Would be better to exclusively let party members vote. Only problem with that is you could get the Hillary Clinton problem of ending up with a candidate that only appeals to the party faithful.
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Jan 23, 2017 08:01
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The solution is to not have primaries at all. I have no idea how anyone in the PS could have thought, you know who we should emulate? American parties. Those seem to work absolutely fine.
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Jan 23, 2017 10:27
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Phlegmish posted:I understand that it's an attempt to institute a psychological barrier, but that's change you find on the street, come on. Would be better to exclusively let party members vote. Only problem with that is you could get the Hillary Clinton problem of ending up with a candidate that only appeals to the party faithful. The psychological barrier isn't "I'm giving 1/2€ that could feed me", it's "I'm giving 1/2€ that will be used by the party to cover the costs of the primary/by the winner for their campaign" I know I wouldn't give them a single cent out of principle, and 96% of the population didn't judging from this year's figures. Up until 2011 (when Hollande was elected as the party's candidate) only party members could vote in the socialist primary. I guess the open primary and its outcome appealed to the general public since the 2012 election saw the first PS victory since Mitterand's second term in 1988, so I think you're absolutely right in that regard. e: cebrail posted:The solution is to not have primaries at all. I have no idea how anyone in the PS could have thought, you know who we should emulate? American parties. Those seem to work absolutely fine. The bigger parties are in a legitimacy crisis and representative democracy is hosed either way. Primaries are just a way to engage more people in the democratic process, to get them to vote and support a candidate all the way through. It makes sense to have primaries in that context. If you think primaries are ridiculous masquerades trying to entertain the idea that democracy is a battle royale slapfight between oligarchs with inflated egos who fabricate buzz out of lovely recycled ideas designed to appeal to certain demographics, well, first, you're not wrong, and second that's how modern representative democracy works, not just primaries. So yeah I don't think there is a solution. Well, there is but what do they care about that, gotta get those votes man. x420ReDdIT_Br0nYx fucked around with this message at 11:34 on Jan 23, 2017 |
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Jan 23, 2017 10:58
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cebrail posted:The solution is to not have primaries at all. I have no idea how anyone in the PS could have thought, you know who we should emulate? American parties. Those seem to work absolutely fine.
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Jan 23, 2017 11:18
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Toplowtech posted:Basically they hosed up. The presidency of François Hollande in four words.
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Jan 23, 2017 11:58
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cebrail posted:The solution is to not have primaries at all. I have no idea how anyone in the PS could have thought, you know who we should emulate? American parties. Those seem to work absolutely fine. Yeah let's go back to using the first round of the general as the primary, this can only end well.
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Jan 23, 2017 12:20
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But there's a pretty good chance the socialist candidate won't make it to the second round this year either, isn't there?
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Jan 23, 2017 12:27
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Kassad posted:But there's a pretty good chance the socialist candidate won't make it to the second round this year either, isn't there? It will be very close what with Mélanchon and Macron going it alone. I don't think either have enough to win it but enough to seriously endanger the PS
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Jan 23, 2017 12:41
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LemonDrizzle posted:Even trivial barriers can be enough to stop large numbers of people from doing something stupid/obnoxious just for the lols.  keeps SA relatively free from throwaway accounts.
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Jan 23, 2017 12:44
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Kassad posted:But there's a pretty good chance the socialist candidate won't make it to the second round this year either, isn't there?
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Jan 23, 2017 13:09
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It would take a DSK setup/fuckup for Fillon to lose at this stage
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Jan 23, 2017 13:17
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Kassad posted:But there's a pretty good chance the socialist candidate won't make it to the second round this year either, isn't there?
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Jan 23, 2017 13:21
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julian assflange posted:It would take a DSK setup/fuckup for Fillon to lose at this stage is there a sofitel in le mans
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Jan 23, 2017 13:33
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Le Pen's slogan if Valls loses the primary: "Fillon, Macron, Hamon, Mélenchon: tous des *ons!"
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Jan 23, 2017 13:39
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are there any polls with Hamon leading the PS, i mean choosing an actual leftist to lead the PS should be a good thing (if he wins) but i get the feeling that it's a case of "too little too late"
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Jan 23, 2017 13:43
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TheIllestVillain posted:are there any polls with Hamon leading the PS, i mean choosing an actual leftist to lead the PS should be a good thing (if he wins) but i get the feeling that it's a case of "too little too late" Most recent poll on the first round of the election has the PS at 8% with Hamon and at 9% with Valls. Which is bad, but part of me still thinks Macron is due for a Balladur-style collapse when the campaign starts in earnest.
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Jan 23, 2017 15:04
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Cat Mattress posted:Le Pen's slogan if Valls loses the primary: "Fillon, Macron, Hamon, Mélenchon: tous des *ons!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RQHsn2ilfA
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Jan 23, 2017 16:23
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Cat Mattress posted:Le Pen's slogan if Valls loses the primary: "Fillon, Macron, Hamon, Mélenchon: tous des *ons!" Edit your post before she sees it Jesus loving Christ don't give them ideas! 
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Jan 23, 2017 17:19
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Pinch Me Im Meming posted:Edit your post before she sees it Jesus loving Christ don't give them ideas! I would legit get mad if the FN's campaign started using the same language as their electoral base. All they need is to start campaigning against the bobo-gauchiasses and the journalopes. It's as infuriating as the cuck meme. EDIT: at least tous des *ons is inventive Flowers For Algeria fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Jan 23, 2017 |
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Jan 23, 2017 17:29
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Le Monde points out that the French Left's Primary is pretty badly run, and could even have be en falsified Magically, every candidate's vote count increased by 28% between last night and today. The organisers are saying it's just a simple mistake caused by applying the share of votes that have been opened to the total number of voters, but they decided to leave these wrong and misleading figures on the website to "avoid a new media polemic". Then again, it's only 28% of the vote... Shazback fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Jan 23, 2017 |
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Jan 23, 2017 19:38
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RIP le PS. Time for a re-brand like LR
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Jan 23, 2017 19:58
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At least Claude Geant is going to jail 
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Jan 23, 2017 20:54
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The PS is going to die this year. Weird...
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Jan 23, 2017 21:24
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I have the perfect re-brand: Les Démocrates hire me Cambadélis
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Jan 23, 2017 21:55
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A shame that Les Nuls is already taken and probably copyrighted....
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Jan 23, 2017 22:08
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Kurtofan posted:I have the perfect re-brand: Les Démocrates Perfect. For that added touch of genericness, I would suggest renaming your country to the United States of Europe.
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Jan 23, 2017 22:11
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Phlegmish posted:Perfect. I'm ok with that, as long as lesser nations start using European to mean French
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Jan 23, 2017 22:13
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julian assflange posted:A shame that Les Nuls is already taken and probably copyrighted.... Les Inconnus as well
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Jan 23, 2017 22:15
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what exactly was the difference between gaullism and the non-gaullist conservative right in france postwar? i guess 'normal' french conservatism was a kind of fascist-y ultra-Catholic type of thing?
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Jan 23, 2017 23:07
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icantfindaname posted:what exactly was the difference between gaullism and the non-gaullist conservative right in france postwar? i guess 'normal' french conservatism was a kind of fascist-y ultra-Catholic type of thing? Well, there were/are several components to the right. "Gaullism" is a weird animal: it is centralist, kinda economically liberal but still very interventionist in the most vital domains of the economy, and socially conservative but not regressive. They will resist social change, but once there has been an advance they wouldn't go back on it. Then you have the liberals, who are mainly defined by their approach to the economy - they're into privatizations and a market-based approach to the economy. Whether they care about social issues is based on individual preferences (but guess what: they tend to be socially conservative because of tribalism). They gradually replaced gaullists, and firmly held the right wing by the late 70's. And then you've got fascists and proto-fascists, who are authoritarian, racist, and mostly focused on social issues. Their approach to economics is mostly based on the current economic doxa, and generally anti-tax: in the 50's, poujadists were mostly defined by that. 80's Le Pen was an ultra-liberal racist. 90's Le Pen was an ultra-liberal racist with a sheen of social protection. 2010's Le Pen is a France-first liberal. Pinch Me, I'm drafting a response to your questions from earlier this weekend, but it'll have to wait until tomorrow. I've got a digital copy of L'Avenir en Commun, so expect a few copy-pastes. Flowers For Algeria fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Jan 23, 2017 |
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Jan 23, 2017 23:36
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icantfindaname posted:what exactly was the difference between gaullism and the non-gaullist conservative right in france postwar? i guess 'normal' french conservatism was a kind of fascist-y ultra-Catholic type of thing? In post-war France? Gaullist conservatives were willing to work with communists and other Résistants to create a political program that would ensure France would remain a sovereign and independent power, non-Gaullist conservatives were trying with varying amounts of success to dodge the purges because they were mostly collabos. Gaullism isn't a real political ideology, it's more an affective relationship to the country. It's the "certain idea" of France, a France that must uphold her values (from the Enlightenment, the Revolution, the Resistance) and remain free. It does involve a strong centralized state that can intervene in the economy: centralized because France is one and indivisible; the capacity for intervention was needed to create and protect "national champions" that could hold their own against foreign corporations, and several technologies were deemed necessary for sovereignty (in domains such as communication, energy, aeronautics, metallurgy, etc.) so these national champions were a necessity. That's why France got the TGV, Arianespace, and a nuke, among other things. The non-Gaullist conservatives are just reactionaries who want to go back to the Ancien Régime. They didn't mind the Occupation because the important part was that it gave them the opportunity to bash non-conformists (a very wide category including any sort of minority as well as anyone who disagrees with them).
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Jan 24, 2017 00:01
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Cat Mattress posted:In post-war France? Gaullist conservatives were willing to work with communists and other Résistants to create a political program that would ensure France would remain a sovereign and independent power, non-Gaullist conservatives were trying with varying amounts of success to dodge the purges because they were mostly collabos. To what extent were collaborating fascists, or people who sympathized with them, allowed to integrate into the postwar Gaullist mainstream? Were there a lot of people functionally identical to Le Pen who melted into the Gaullist crowd?
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Jan 24, 2017 00:27
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icantfindaname posted:To what extent were collaborating fascists, or people who sympathized with them, allowed to integrate into the postwar Gaullist mainstream? Were there a lot of people functionally identical to Le Pen who melted into the Gaullist crowd? Some, yes. Maurice Papon springs to mind: he helped organize the deportation of Jews during WWII, but it didn't stop him from becoming a henchman in Gaullist France. High-level civil servants who were exceptionally good at following orders saw their past forgotten, because they were useful. We French call it the "raison d'Etat".
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Jan 24, 2017 00:33
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So, it's unconstitutional for Britain to leave the EU without parliamentary approval. The supreme court told the government that they simply don't not have the legal power to execute the Brexit by themselves.
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Jan 24, 2017 11:01
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Valiantman posted:So, it's unconstitutional for Britain to leave the EU without parliamentary approval. The supreme court told the government that they simply don't not have the legal power to execute the Brexit by themselves. Unfortunately it's not a big deal. Only the SNP and Lib dems will dare vote against.
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Jan 24, 2017 11:26
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Valiantman posted:So, it's unconstitutional for Britain to leave the EU without parliamentary approval. The supreme court told the government that they simply don't not have the legal power to execute the Brexit by themselves. Yeah but Labour can't vote against without losing like half their Northern powerbase. Hope is a lie.
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Jan 24, 2017 12:03
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Regarde Aduck posted:Unfortunately it's not a big deal. Only the SNP and Lib dems will dare vote against. If there were a functioning social democratic party, they could at least threaten a vote against to make sure the Tories don't take their chance of turning the UK into a (even more) neoliberal shithole.
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Jan 24, 2017 14:04
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julian assflange posted:A shame that Les Nuls is already taken and probably copyrighted.... icantfindaname posted:what exactly was the difference between gaullism and the non-gaullist conservative right in france postwar? i guess 'normal' french conservatism was a kind of fascist-y ultra-Catholic type of thing? There were also many "left wing gaullists". People from the Radical Party (left), but since that party (and few other parties) went the collaboration way under Petain, a lot of them needed a new place to exist politically and most were into the post-war Gaulist more generous social politics, De Gaulle accepted them to weaken any opposition (read communist). Basically as "the savior of France", De Gaulle was smart enough to try to get everyone from the anticlerical left, the masons to the center right Lot of people had to justify their behavior during the war and swearing fealty to De Gaulle helped the transition. Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 14:07
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Inside The Private Chatrooms Trump Supporters Are Using To Manipulate French Voters Edit: Also, Valls said that Hamon might be soft on radical Islamism. And a former minister who backs Valls said (anonymously) that Hamon is the candidate of the Muslim Brotherhood. I'm not sure why the Trump supporters are even bothering. Kassad fucked around with this message at 14:40 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 14:36
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