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Archonex posted:I'd be more worried about a munchkin Changeling than I would a Mage at least. With Mage it's fairly easy to tell when someone is getting stupid and trying to break the game over it's knee with ridiculous infinite buffs or whatever. All the munchkin'd Changelings seemed to come about from things that'd be hard to see coming without intimate knowledge of the mechanics. Mage is asking for it. It has two different spells that multiply speed. Within a few minutes of finding them both I'd worked out how to make a Mage break the sound barrier and was trying to figure out if there were a way to go to light speed. (For added fun, take high level Life magic so you can shapeshift into a Gyrfalcon for higher base speed before multipliers.)
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Jan 24, 2017 07:21
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Archonex posted:Funnily enough, Changelings can apparently do some pretty ridiculous stuff. At character gen in the Changeling game I'm in at the moment, I rolled 27 dice to dodge, and had Armed Defense so that my dodges were also attacks. Atm I'm working on automatically disarming and knocking down anyone I successfully dodge against, and being able to redirect their attacks. Three-fifths of the party are equally as combat specced as I am, it's glorious.
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Jan 24, 2017 12:32
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I think my favorite dumb Changeling trick was combining the hearth clause that guarantees you one success on the target's next roll (But only one success) combined with other contracts that let you take arbitrarily large penalties to die pools to do things, like the contract of winter that lets you lower a temperature of an area by something like 10 degrees per die you give up from your pool. Absolute 0 room, here we come. (Really though the best part of hearth 3 is that it can be used offensively, too. Facing a combat specced murderer with a 20 die attack pool? Use it on them and they get a single success on the attack! And you can do it again the next round and since you can't 'benefit' from that contract twice in a row, they're dropped to a chance die.)
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Jan 24, 2017 13:19
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Doodmons posted:At character gen in the Changeling game I'm in at the moment, I rolled 27 dice to dodge, and had Armed Defense so that my dodges were also attacks. Atm I'm working on automatically disarming and knocking down anyone I successfully dodge against, and being able to redirect their attacks. Three-fifths of the party are equally as combat specced as I am, it's glorious. I'm genuinely curious how you managed that.
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Jan 24, 2017 13:51
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Axelgear posted:I'm genuinely curious how you managed that. Combat changelings are terrible beasts that are best left not at my table (because I just can't plan for them). Those characters work really well with the paranoia while trying to fit into the world too. They really can make some great characters, but holy wow the power gap between the people who can crunch that system and those that can't is very large.
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Jan 24, 2017 16:03
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Axelgear posted:I'm genuinely curious how you managed that. I imagine at least some of it involves contracts of separation+fencing, if using 1E. Just because the catch for some of the clauses requires you to go unarmed and not fight doesn't mean you have to do that, you just have to burn glamour.
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Jan 24, 2017 16:13
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I remember inflicting 11L in one strike with my Summer Ogre in a game.
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Jan 24, 2017 19:28
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Jhet posted:Combat changelings are terrible beasts that are best left not at my table (because I just can't plan for them). Those characters work really well with the paranoia while trying to fit into the world too. They really can make some great characters, but holy wow the power gap between the people who can crunch that system and those that can't is very large. Yeah, this is what i'm talking about. If you've got a group of people who know how to work the mechanics then it starts to look like the reason the Fae keep to their side of the hedge isn't because they're self obsessed eldritch abominations but because there's a Justice League of supernatural abuse survivors sitting on the other side that could punch them out of existence in two turns.
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Jan 24, 2017 19:46
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Axelgear posted:I'm genuinely curious how you managed that. I'm playing a Skitterskulk, who triple their Defense when they dodge. My Defense is 9 (Dex/Wits 3+Weaponry 4+Buckler 2). One of the other party members is pretty much doing the exact same build, and the other (much more effective) combat specced party member is an Ogre with Red Rage of Terrible Vengeance and a 5-dot token sword. He pretty much ignores damage and hits like a freight train while the pair of us Skitterskulks swashbuckle around the place and blendo anyone who tries to hit us. Sadly, Armour is much better than Defense (3 times better, to be precise) and is barely more difficult to stack - plus it works on Firearms. unseenlibrarian posted:I think my favorite dumb Changeling trick was combining the hearth clause that guarantees you one success on the target's next roll (But only one success) combined with other contracts that let you take arbitrarily large penalties to die pools to do things, like the contract of winter that lets you lower a temperature of an area by something like 10 degrees per die you give up from your pool. Absolute 0 room, here we come. Offensive Hearth 3 shenanigans are quite good, but not unstoppable. You need to be able to touch them, which is kind of difficult to do to a combat specced Changeling (see above) and arguably you also need to keep grappling them for a turn because the Contract isn't Reflexive. And then it only works for two turns (Turn 1: 1 success, Turn 2: dramatic failure, Turn 3 onwards the caster takes the dramatic failure instead)
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Jan 24, 2017 19:47
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Archonex posted:Yeah, this is what i'm talking about. If Changelings can get that powerful and the theory about True Fae being top level Changelings is correct, then presumably the Fae are full of even more statistical shennaigans than PCs.
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Jan 24, 2017 20:32
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I'm just gonna put it out there and say that as long as 1e combat styles are involved, none of this discussion is meaningful because 1e combat styles.
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Jan 24, 2017 20:38
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Xelkelvos posted:If Changelings can get that powerful and the theory about True Fae being top level Changelings is correct, then presumably the Fae are full of even more statistical shennaigans than PCs. It's not even a theory, a Wyrd 10 changeling is on his way to becoming True Fae and while True Fae are weird, complicated entities*, if you strip away all their titles and roles until only their name is left, the resulting creature is basically a changeling. * A True Fae is more like a living, sentient drama than a single creature, so a cruel fairy lord, his mansion, all his household servants, his prized ancestral sword, and his fiery rival might all be the same True Fae. (And he might gain and lose any of those elements over the course of his existence.)
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Jan 24, 2017 20:40
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Mors Rattus posted:I'm just gonna put it out there and say that as long as 1e combat styles are involved, none of this discussion is meaningful because 1e combat styles. I don't think I analyzed any given piece of World of Darkness rules content in light of fighting styles more than, like, six months past the release of VtR 1E.
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Jan 24, 2017 20:42
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Wyrd 10 Changelings are strongly hinted at as becoming True Fae (in the "I'm not saying they become True Fae, but they become True Fae") sort of way, but I don't think it's ever stated explicitly, is it? Either way, them's some ridiculous dice. Still not sure how I feel about the 2e previews thus far, but if nothing else, I'm glad to see banes and taboos get introduced at the "Most players will actually experience this" level.
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Jan 24, 2017 20:45
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Ferrinus posted:I don't think I analyzed any given piece of World of Darkness rules content in light of fighting styles more than, like, six months past the release of VtR 1E. When people are throwing around stuff like Fencing or whatever as part of why massive combat supremacy is happening, it's important to remember that, oh yeah, Fencing.
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Jan 24, 2017 20:47
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It still warms my heart to remember that some actual dev or other for the 1E nWoD explained that they'd determined Kung Fu was balanced because a kung fu user, while benefiting from Celerity or some similar defense-augmenting power, was not able to defeat several cops from the NPC section.
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Jan 24, 2017 20:53
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Ferrinus posted:It still warms my heart to remember that some actual dev or other for the 1E nWoD explained that they'd determined Kung Fu was balanced because a kung fu user, while benefiting from Celerity or some similar defense-augmenting power, was not able to defeat several cops from the NPC section. didn't celerity give extra actions in 1E or am i think of oWoD celerity
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Jan 24, 2017 20:55
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:didn't celerity give extra actions in 1E or am i think of oWoD celerity You're thinking of VtM Celerity. In 1E nWoD the only way to reliably access extra attacks was, in fact, Fighting Styles.
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Jan 24, 2017 20:57
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:didn't celerity give extra actions in 1E or am i think of oWoD celerity That's oWoD, yeah. Celerity in 1E just gave you bonus Defense (not quite true - what it did was just remove [Celerity] dice from all incoming attacks, which meant it applied against firearms, didn't degrade from onslaught by multiple opponents, remained even if you took maneuvers that forbade your using Defense such as all fighting style maneuvers that granted multiattacks, etc). What's funny is that the playtesters saw giving up your Defense as the principal drawback of Kung Fu, such that the most effective possible combination of kung fu and supernatural powers was to magically get your lost Defense back. In reality, of course, the two or three extra dice you were giving your opponents didn't mean squat and the real insanity began when you combined Kung Fu with powers like Vigor that'd increase your attack pool, since your bonus from Vigor would be effectively multiplied. The other funny thing is that the generic "cop" NPC statblock from the 1E core was monstrously strong, so to even have a chance against more than one of those things was incredible.
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Jan 24, 2017 21:01
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Xelkelvos posted:If Changelings can get that powerful and the theory about True Fae being top level Changelings is correct, then presumably the Fae are full of even more statistical shennaigans than PCs. They're pretty limited outside of their home dimension, actually. Inside their own personal realm they're basically equivalent to low level exalts. Complete with being able to warp the terrain in some extreme cases. Like a lot of super powerful beings in the setting however once they step out of their home dimension their power level goes down by a lot. At that point they're basically just extremely powerful changelings with potentially a lot of allies or extra weird powers. It's part of why the Summer Court continues to exist. Sure, charging into Arcadia is a suicide mission, but the second some True Fae steps out into the world without some meat shields they're fair game to any combat capable changeling that can output large amounts of lethal damage or knows how to make cold iron bullets. Archonex fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 21:25
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I prefer the explanation that the True Fae aren't interested in "winning" in the traditional sense; it's more that they literally feed on being the cliche'd, melodramatic storybook villains, and actually exterminating or recapturing the Changeling courts simply isn't in their best interests. Being a Changeling is about fighting a complacent enemy who wants to control and manipulate your life, about living on your own terms instead of those of your abuser -- it's a different flavor than Mage's revolutionary struggle against the tyranny of mundane reality or Demon's surveillance and paranoia.
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Jan 24, 2017 21:57
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I prefer the explanation that the True Fae aren't interested in "winning" in the traditional sense; it's more that they literally feed on being the cliche'd, melodramatic storybook villains, and actually exterminating or recapturing the Changeling courts simply isn't in their best interests. Being a Changeling is about fighting a complacent enemy who wants to control and manipulate your life, about living on your own terms instead of those of your abuser -- it's a different flavor than Mage's revolutionary struggle against the tyranny of mundane reality or Demon's surveillance and paranoia. Yeah, the True Fae feed off of conflict. So they're not so much interested in beating down the Changelings so much as they are in making them hate and fight them. Granted, they're utterly amoral to the point of being alien. So if they think it's a good time to exterminate a freehold that's what they'll try to do. But even when they do that they're not playing by the same mental rules that the rest of humanity is playing by. Hate and conflict is about as close to friendship or love that a True Fae can get. Which kind of does everything to explain how monumentally hosed up they are from what they used to be. Archonex fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 22:20
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I find that so interesting, because it suggests that a valid strategy of dealing with a True Fae is becoming a sufficiently stimulating rival to the point where outright killing you isn't satisfying and you have the leverage of refusing to be their frenemy anymore if they don't abide by some rules. Wait, I think that's the...Blackbirds, I want to say? There are True Fae oriented bargain makers in the books, anyway.
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Jan 24, 2017 23:14
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Tiny Deer posted:I find that so interesting, because it suggests that a valid strategy of dealing with a True Fae is becoming a sufficiently stimulating rival to the point where outright killing you isn't satisfying and you have the leverage of refusing to be their frenemy anymore if they don't abide by some rules. That might work for a bit. But keep in mind that at their heart of heart's most True Fae aren't really the True Fae in the Exalted setting's sense. You can't cut a deal with them that sees them pass you by like you could in Exalted. At least, not permanently. Eventually they'll turn on you if there's a way for them to do so. The True Fae of the NWoD are incredibly mutated humans that have had their thought processes altered to the point where they're utterly solipsistic in their outlook to the point where they're utterly alien and amoral. Only what they want matters, other being don't really exist as beings with rights, and everything else is a mere amusement to their whims at best. Eventually they're going to have an idle thought about what might happen if they found a loophole in the agreement and went after you. Then everything is going to go downhill. Or to look at it another way: The True Fae are basically what would happen if the Ladder got their way and managed to rewrite reality so that it was a conflict-less existence. Divorced from a true sense of reality humanity would inevitably find alternate means to fight each other (The True Fae's story telling is actually this. And their domains in Arcadia and titles are an extension of that workaround.) and would prey on alternate realities instead. You'd end up with an entire race of The Mad that eventually settled out on some really bizarre communal thought processes. It would make for a good plot though. The changeling fiction pieces are littered with people and changelings that are stupid enough to think that you can cut a deal with them. It never works out well though. Someone ends up suffering horribly for it. There's even an entire "prestige class" focused around negotiating with the True Fae and locking them into agreements that mean they have to gently caress off and leave the world alone. Archonex fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 23:35
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The true fae are not what would happen if the Ladder got its way. For that matter, warping terrain in extreme cases is not the hallmark of a low level exalt. I'm beginning to think you're just making this all up as you go along.
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Jan 24, 2017 23:38
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Ferrinus posted:The true fae are not what would happen if the Ladder got its way. For that matter, warping terrain in extreme cases is not the hallmark of a low level exalt. I'm beginning to think you're just making this all up as you go along. Nah. Exalted 2e has some spells that Solars and Abyssals can pick up that lets you do that. Though you have to stat specifically for them to get them early on. Charms are off the table as far as active world shaping though, from what I recall. And if you don't see the comparisons between the potential downside of the Ladder's end game and the nature of Arcadia then I don't know what to tell you. The comparison is pretty on the nose. The True Fae are essentially a society of really hosed up beings that's dropped direct conflict entirely in favor of becoming some sort of bizarre living narrative. Even the given rules we have for playing a game as the True Fae touches on this, with "killing" a True Fae not being a case of actually needing to physically murder them but instead win their story telling game. Which if done too many times will strip them of their titles until they don't exist any more or get kicked out of Arcadia. If you want I can see if I can find the quotes in the book that explains how they work? Archonex fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 23:40
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I don't think there's a single White Wolf gameline that does not contain spells that alter terrain. Your use of "low level Exalt... even warping terrain!" to describe the potency of a sidhe lord at the heart of their territory remains completely bizarre. You forge into the heart of faerie, draw your blade, and find yourself fighting... a guy that's maybe as dangerous as a BP 2 or 3 (blood and smoke) vampire?? The triumph of the Ladder is obviously distinct in form and function from the ravages of the unchecked true fae because the ravages of the unchecked true fae are what you get before an Awakened humanity conquers Arcadia, not after.
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Jan 24, 2017 23:46
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Archonex posted:Yeah, this is what i'm talking about. I dunno. In 1e a Fae can, say, carry around a Title in a scroll, and when he reads from it every mortal who hears it dies, and the game mechanic is, "If you hear it and you're mortal, you die."
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Jan 24, 2017 23:47
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I have not read Changeling 2E closely, but I remember noting that a lot of the new Seeming (or Kith or something) descriptions seemed to imply that you, the Changeling, could physically dominate or outright murder your faerie captor such that they'd be scared to face you directly, and hence giving the preview material the extreme side-eye. Edit: And the actual power that would do this would be like "a claw that does agg sometimes" Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 23:48
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Ferrinus posted:I don't think there's a single White Wolf gameline that does not contain spells that alter terrain. Your use of "low level Exalt... even warping terrain!" to describe the potency of a sidhe lord at the heart of their territory remains completely bizarre. You forge into the heart of faerie, draw your blade, and find yourself fighting... a guy that's maybe as dangerous as a BP 2 or 3 (blood and smoke) vampire?? The White and Black Treatise book has a few spells that let you raise mountains, create swamps, and generally alter the terrain within a theme at will. I'm not making this stuff up. It is a book that exists. Though this is the only link I can find for it it, since apparently there's no stable wiki for Exalted? https://www.amazon.com/White-Treatise-Black-Sorcery-Exalted/dp/1588466922 Edit: Bahaha. Holy poo poo, that red text. Looks like I pissed someone off!  MalcolmSheppard posted:I dunno. In 1e a Fae can, say, carry around a Title in a scroll, and when he reads from it every mortal who hears it dies, and the game mechanic is, "If you hear it and you're mortal, you die." I didn't say that they don't have some pretty nasty powers. Just that it's possible to kill them if they were outside of Arcadia. Maybe it was changed in 2e but 1e True Fae got all sorts of messed up if they got hit by cold iron weaponry or bullets, for instance. Archonex fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 23:51
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Archonex posted:The White and Black Treatise book has a few spells that let you raise mountains, create swamps, and generally alter the terrain within a theme at will. The problem here is not the claim that characters in Exalted can alter terrain, but the association of terrain alteration, and indeed of the words "low-level Exalt" with the supreme power of one of the true fae currently benefiting from home-ground advantage. It's like you're just saying things at random.
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Jan 24, 2017 23:53
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Ferrinus posted:The problem here is not the claim that characters in Exalted can alter terrain, but the association of terrain alteration, and indeed of the words "low-level Exalt" with the supreme power of one of the true fae currently benefiting from home-ground advantage. It's like you're just saying things at random. It was the best possible comparison I could think of off hand since barring your average arch-mage most mages aren't going to be loving with the terrain on that level unless they're dangerously close to going bonkers and vanishing up their own rear end due to their own hubris. They're about the only ones I can think of that get powers like that off hand, outside of the Exalted. What other game line or antagonist can pull stuff like that off and not get clocked with some sort of potential downside?
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Jan 24, 2017 23:55
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I think you have an extremely inflated idea of what a low level exalt can do, especially in 3E. But, like, even in 2E you'd just just be able to dodge attacks for an annoyingly long time while swinging a sword that's barely to moderately dangerous by the standards of WoD supernaturals.
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Jan 24, 2017 23:58
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Ferrinus posted:I think you have an extremely inflated idea of what a low level exalt can do, especially in 3E. But, like, even in 2E you'd just just be able to dodge attacks for an annoyingly long time while swinging a sword that's barely to moderately dangerous by the standards of WoD supernaturals. Well, yeah. 3E Exalt had a massive power nerf applied to it compared to 2E Exalt. 2E Exalt's absolutely were that nuts if you knew the mechanics. But I wasn't trying to make some definitive statement of superiority of one game over another. Just use the best comparison that I could think of offhand. You seem to...Uh, take this a bit seriously. 
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Jan 25, 2017 00:00
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Archonex posted:Edit: Bahaha. Holy poo poo, that red text. Looks like I pissed someone off! It was me, more because it's funny than out of any real ill-will. What did you get the original one for?
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Jan 25, 2017 00:01
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Archonex posted:The True Fae of the NWoD are incredibly mutated humans- I'm gonna stop you right there. It is true that sufficiently powerful Changelings can become True Fae but it has never been stated that this is where all or even most of the True Fae come from. In fact it is impossible for this to be true since we then run into a chicken and egg scenario with the True Fae where Changelings had to exist to make True Fae, but True Fae had to exist to capture Changelings. The origins of the True Fae have never been outright stated outside of explicit speculation.
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Jan 25, 2017 00:03
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Archonex posted:The White and Black Treatise book has a few spells that let you raise mountains, create swamps, and generally alter the terrain within a theme at will. Much depends on whether you go by Equinox Road or Autumn Nightmares, which aren't really integrated. Per ER the Fae you kill might be basically a magical psuedopod of the whole thing, either as one kickass individual or as a pack of 20 goblins. I have no idea what they went with for 2e; I designed the stuff for Equinox Road.
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Jan 25, 2017 00:04
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:It was me, more because it's funny than out of any real ill-will. What did you get the original one for? It was either because I pointed out that someone had absolutely no knowledge of how to read and interpret statistics way back when I first made the account or because I got caught in Utnayan's $200+ forum rampage to red text everyone in the SWTOR thread after they laughed at him freaking out over the game possibly ending up being a dud back before it was released. I'm hoping it's the latter, really. I really don't want to believe that someone would rage that hard over what was basically a math debate.
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Jan 25, 2017 00:05
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Archonex posted:Well, yeah. 3E Exalt had a massive power nerf applied to it compared to 2E Exalt. 2E Exalt's absolutely were that nuts if you knew the mechanics. But I wasn't trying to make some definitive statement of superiority of one game over another. Just use the best comparison that I could think of offhand. 2E exalts, sure... but 2E low-level exalts? You start with like ten Charms in that game. I was prepared to overlook it but your gross mischaracterization of the Pentacle's mission was one step too far.
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Jan 25, 2017 00:05
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True Fae are stories, including all the actors, terrain, and props. They're capable of setting all their stats to Maximum and pwning all changelings and everybody and being the Winner For Ever, but this kills them because that's boring and they have to be interesting to be healthy. Honestly, I don't find the idea that all changelings who increase their powers are moving towards becoming True Fae, or that all True Fae were once human, very gripping.
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