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Flowers For Algeria posted:I was being glib. Of course, it'd be a titanic endeavor. But don't you agree that they are good policies? And don't you agree that, with enough effort, we could effectively make them actual common sense? They are good ideas. I agree with enough effort they can be done. But with enough effort we could shift the earths orbit. I disagree that it is attainable within any sort of reasonable time frame. The violence alone would mean you would need to dismantle a massive portion of media(thinking about movies, tv shows, video games..) that shows violence. Not to mention sports(NFL, NHL, Boxing, UFC...). Titanic effort that will span generations(lifetimes). edited: added lifetimes Indigofreak fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Jan 25, 2017 |
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Jan 25, 2017 01:19
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BAD POSTER ALERT!
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Stone Cold gives an excellent definition in the Feminism thread over at The Great Race Space : I'd just like to give credit where credit is due, and say that the definitions from the op were from the previous feminism thread run by how high the moon 
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Jan 25, 2017 01:42
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cosmicfreak aside...Sethex posted:I mean, getting predictably upset at mere mentioning that men are 4x more likely to be autistic than women shouldn't cause emotional outrage, but when dealing with people who assign 'feminist' to their introductory identity anything is possible. it isn't clear if this is because girls with high-functioning autism just don't get diagnosed as often as boys do. there's some decent-ish studies to that effect. this isn't a settled issue, of course, because we don't know the organic cause of autism. (sorry, med studies are almost always paywalled.) a lot of "actually men are discriminated against" statistics are based on diagnosis or crime investigation rates - but a diagnosis or crime investigation is a good and desirable thing if there's a disease or crime. that harm to women may be underreported when it comes to women.
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Jan 25, 2017 04:16
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Cease to Hope posted:
Oddly I don't think the autism claim was even supposed to be a claim men are discriminated against, the reason it was posted was some weird jump of logic that showing more men have low IQs somehow proves that men have higher IQs, I guess because that is the logic that would work in a videogame? If someone has a higher chance of a low stat that must mean they have a higher average stat to be fair? or something?
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Jan 25, 2017 05:13
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Oddly I don't think the autism claim was even supposed to be a claim men are discriminated against, the reason it was posted was some weird jump of logic that showing more men have low IQs somehow proves that men have higher IQs, I guess because that is the logic that would work in a videogame? If someone has a higher chance of a low stat that must mean they have a higher average stat to be fair? or something? These are people who use F.A.T.A.L. as a primary source when discussing human capabilities and tendencies.
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Jan 25, 2017 05:23
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The idea of "snuffing out" violence among young boys is just one of the areas where modern feminism reveals it's true colors. Often times it's not really so much about equality as it is tearing down the male identity. Whenever the curtain gets pulled back this far I have to roll my eyes at the idea at the logistics required in hiring a bunch of people to follow little boys around and ensure they don't play guns with sticks in the woods. There's nothing inherently wrong with that behavior other than the fact that it makes a certain group of academics and political activists uncomfortable.
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Jan 25, 2017 06:27
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new phone who dis posted:Whenever the curtain gets pulled back this far I have to roll my eyes at the idea at the logistics required in hiring a bunch of people to follow little boys around and ensure they don't play guns with sticks in the woods. This sounds like a strawman to me, has anyone in this thread supported it?
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Jan 25, 2017 06:43
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new phone who dis posted:The idea of "snuffing out" violence among young boys is just one of the areas where modern feminism reveals it's true colors. Often times it's not really so much about equality as it is tearing down the male identity. Whenever the curtain gets pulled back this far I have to roll my eyes at the idea at the logistics required in hiring a bunch of people to follow little boys around and ensure they don't play guns with sticks in the woods. There's nothing inherently wrong with that behavior other than the fact that it makes a certain group of academics and political activists uncomfortable. That also isn't violence, though. Unless you hit each other with the sticks I guess.
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Jan 25, 2017 06:46
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OwlFancier posted:That also isn't violence, though. If we're going to seriously talk about modern feminism then there needs to be an acknowledgement that many prominent devotees to it are absolutely of the idea that simulated violence is violence. Also that words or ideas they don't like are violence. There has been a fundamental re-purposing of words and their definitions in regards to modern feminism and activist culture in general that's usually happily ignored when all it's adherents get together to make a thread full of posts like "Gosh, I don't know why there are anti-feminists when all they want is equality." The movement has changed since inception, particularly lately, and to have a nuanced discussion is to acknowledge many of the failings and wrong turns of what should be an egalitarian movement and how it has been hijacked in many places into something not even resembling a fight for equality.
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Jan 25, 2017 06:53
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new phone who dis posted:If we're going to seriously talk about modern feminism then there needs to be an acknowledgement that many prominent devotees to it are absolutely of the idea that simulated violence is violence. Also that words or ideas they don't like are violence. There has been a fundamental re-purposing of words and their definitions in regards to modern feminism and activist culture in general that's usually happily ignored when all it's adherents get together to make a thread full of posts like "Gosh, I don't know why there are anti-feminists when all they want is equality." The movement has changed since inception, particularly lately, and to have a nuanced discussion is to acknowledge many of the failings and wrong turns of what should be an egalitarian movement and how it has been hijacked in many places into something not even resembling a fight for equality. Source your MRA quotes
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Jan 25, 2017 07:04
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new phone who dis posted:If we're going to seriously talk about modern feminism then there needs to be an acknowledgement that many prominent devotees to it are absolutely of the idea that simulated violence is violence. Also that words or ideas they don't like are violence. There has been a fundamental re-purposing of words and their definitions in regards to modern feminism and activist culture in general that's usually happily ignored when all it's adherents get together to make a thread full of posts like "Gosh, I don't know why there are anti-feminists when all they want is equality." The movement has changed since inception, particularly lately, and to have a nuanced discussion is to acknowledge many of the failings and wrong turns of what should be an egalitarian movement and how it has been hijacked in many places into something not even resembling a fight for equality. Sorry that a lady didn't like your favourite video game about titninjas
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Jan 25, 2017 07:05
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a goon tippity taps at their keyboard, refuse spilling out and over the keys, the academics have been owned. the boys are safe. "another good post"
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Jan 25, 2017 07:08
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new phone who dis posted:If we're going to seriously talk about modern feminism then there needs to be an acknowledgement that many prominent devotees to it are absolutely of the idea that simulated violence is violence. Also that words or ideas they don't like are violence. There has been a fundamental re-purposing of words and their definitions in regards to modern feminism and activist culture in general that's usually happily ignored when all it's adherents get together to make a thread full of posts like "Gosh, I don't know why there are anti-feminists when all they want is equality." The movement has changed since inception, particularly lately, and to have a nuanced discussion is to acknowledge many of the failings and wrong turns of what should be an egalitarian movement and how it has been hijacked in many places into something not even resembling a fight for equality. Again, it sounds a bit strawman-ish to me. If you want a nuanced discussion then why don't you state your position with all the nuance it holds and see if people agree instead of providing a position that no one in this thread (at least that I've seen) has supported with no specific source and attacking it as representative of "the movement" as a whole?
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Jan 25, 2017 07:09
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M'lady just doesn't understand, but I will make her understand, yes I will. She will gaze upon my Japanese anime and sword collection and be amazed.
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Jan 25, 2017 07:10
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new phone who dis posted:If we're going to seriously talk about modern feminism then there needs to be an acknowledgement that many prominent devotees to it are absolutely of the idea that simulated violence is violence. Also that words or ideas they don't like are violence. There has been a fundamental re-purposing of words and their definitions in regards to modern feminism and activist culture in general that's usually happily ignored when all it's adherents get together to make a thread full of posts like "Gosh, I don't know why there are anti-feminists when all they want is equality." The movement has changed since inception, particularly lately, and to have a nuanced discussion is to acknowledge many of the failings and wrong turns of what should be an egalitarian movement and how it has been hijacked in many places into something not even resembling a fight for equality. Nah.
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Jan 25, 2017 07:11
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Eletriarnation posted:Again, it sounds a bit strawman-ish to me. If you want a nuanced discussion then why don't you state your position with all the nuance it holds and see if people agree instead of providing a position that no one in this thread (at least that I've seen) has supported with no specific source and attacking it as representative of "the movement" as a whole? So are we going to talk about the current state of feminism or people in this thread? Is there really anyone out there who has a phone or computer who hasn't noticed the commodification of it? The way it largely melded with a Clinton corporate agenda through favorable media coverage? Much like communism, feminism isn't about the perfect version a small group of posters in this subforum keep in their heads, it's about the public perception and general direction of the movement by those claiming to shepherd it. There's a reason most women don't identify as feminists, and even less do now than in the past. Feminism has an image problem of it's own making.
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Jan 25, 2017 07:17
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the cool thing about citing "public perception" is you can pull it out of your rear end
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Jan 25, 2017 07:21
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new phone who dis posted:So are we going to talk about the current state of feminism or people in this thread? Is there really anyone out there who has a phone or computer who hasn't noticed the commodification of it? The way it largely melded with a Clinton corporate agenda through favorable media coverage? Much like communism, feminism isn't about the perfect version a small group of posters in this subforum keep in their heads, it's about the public perception and general direction of the movement by those claiming to shepherd it. There's a reason most women don't identify as feminists, and even less do now than in the past. Feminism has an image problem of it's own making. Someone not liking feminism is not the fault of the feminist movement. The people such as yourself who are vocally opposed to feminism are men who just want to call women sluts, or think Brock Turner was right.
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Jan 25, 2017 07:25
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Low Desert Punk posted:the cool thing about citing "public perception" is you can pull it out of your rear end http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenintheworld/2015/04/09/82-percent-of-americans-dont-consider-themselves-feminists-poll-shows/
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Jan 25, 2017 07:26
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I said come in! posted:Someone not liking feminism is not the fault of the feminist movement. The people such as yourself who are vocally opposed to feminism are men who just want to call women sluts, or think Brock Turner was right. Actually I would say that most Americans believing in what are generally feminist ideals yet still refusing to claim the name of feminist is precisely because of the people who do claim that label.
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Jan 25, 2017 07:28
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new phone who dis posted:http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenintheworld/2015/04/09/82-percent-of-americans-dont-consider-themselves-feminists-poll-shows/ All this says is that it confirms most people don't care to label themselves. The vast majority of people share feminist beliefs even if they don't associate those beliefs with feminism.
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Jan 25, 2017 07:30
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I said come in! posted:All this says is that it confirms most people don't care to label themselves. The vast majority of people share feminist beliefs even if they don't associate those beliefs with feminism. I wonder how that happened.
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Jan 25, 2017 07:31
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new phone who dis posted:So are we going to talk about the current state of feminism or people in this thread? Is there really anyone out there who has a phone or computer who hasn't noticed the commodification of it? The way it largely melded with a Clinton corporate agenda through favorable media coverage? Much like communism, feminism isn't about the perfect version a small group of posters in this subforum keep in their heads, it's about the public perception and general direction of the movement by those claiming to shepherd it. There's a reason most women don't identify as feminists, and even less do now than in the past. Feminism has an image problem of it's own making. Your a dingus. A terminal case, too. I'm sorry.
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Jan 25, 2017 07:31
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new phone who dis posted:I wonder how that happened. You're thinking way too much into this, take off your MRA issued fetish diapers and fedora, its blocking off the blood flow to your brain.
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Jan 25, 2017 07:33
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"Not identifying as a feminist" is not the same thing as all of them believing your weird anti-intellectual death of masculinity poo poo also I wonder why people wouldn't want to identify as a feminist when the people who do have received disgusting vitirol from both large amounts of the american people and their elected officials
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Jan 25, 2017 07:34
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new phone who dis posted:I wonder how that happened. Anti-feminist propaganda is very strongly entrenched in the national discourse. Conservatism loves to extoll patriarcal values, based on moral values that are often religious in nature. There's been a very powerful concerterd effort to oppose equality coming from powerfu rightwingl ideologues.
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Jan 25, 2017 07:35
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Anti-feminist propaganda is very strongly entrenched in the national discourse. Conservatism loves to extoll patriarcal values, based on moral values that are often religious in nature. There's been a very powerful concerterd effort to oppose equality coming from powerfu rightwingl ideologues. Then why do people still claim to hold the values of equality while eschewing the label?
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Jan 25, 2017 07:36
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new phone who dis posted:So are we going to talk about the current state of feminism or people in this thread? Is there really anyone out there who has a phone or computer who hasn't noticed the commodification of it? The way it largely melded with a Clinton corporate agenda through favorable media coverage? Much like communism, feminism isn't about the perfect version a small group of posters in this subforum keep in their heads, it's about the public perception and general direction of the movement by those claiming to shepherd it. There's a reason most women don't identify as feminists, and even less do now than in the past. Feminism has an image problem of it's own making. There's still no actual position that I'm seeing you take other than "I don't like feminism" in this, you're just handwaving about perception and direction and associations. What are the specific ideas that you perceive as feminist and disagree with? (e: other than strawmen that no one else has mentioned and you don't have even an external source for)
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Jan 25, 2017 07:37
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Eletriarnation posted:What are the specific ideas that you perceive as feminist and disagree with? Spoiler alert: he doesn't know.
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Jan 25, 2017 07:37
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new phone who dis posted:If we're going to seriously talk about modern feminism then there needs to be an acknowledgement that many prominent devotees to it are absolutely of the idea that simulated violence is violence. Also that words or ideas they don't like are violence. There has been a fundamental re-purposing of words and their definitions in regards to modern feminism and activist culture in general that's usually happily ignored when all it's adherents get together to make a thread full of posts like "Gosh, I don't know why there are anti-feminists when all they want is equality." The movement has changed since inception, particularly lately, and to have a nuanced discussion is to acknowledge many of the failings and wrong turns of what should be an egalitarian movement and how it has been hijacked in many places into something not even resembling a fight for equality. I think that rather depends on what you mean by "simulated violence" Like, I can't really see much objection to play acting army. I guess ideally we'd live in a society where the concept of warfare is anathema but we don't so, well, action movies are cool and kids like pretending they're in one. Not a big deal. If you move into things like threats and intimidation without actual contact that's pretty dodgy. You shouldn discourage people from doing that, it's not good social behavior. I've had problems in the past with people not being sufficiently specific when it comes to what "normal kid behaviour" is supposed to mean so I think it's important to be specific about what exactly you think is OK and not. new phone who dis posted:Then why do people still claim to hold the values of equality while eschewing the label? I mean personally the label is quite broad and encompasses quite a lot of really rather in-depth study so I wouldn't feel it appropriate to call myself that any more than I would to call myself a physicist.
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Jan 25, 2017 07:43
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 i wonder why the average american wouldn't want to identify with a movement that is mocked and degraded by elected officials, despite agreeing with their ideology really gets your noodle goin'
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Jan 25, 2017 07:45
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Eletriarnation posted:There's still no actual position that I'm seeing you take other than "I don't like feminism" in this, you're just handwaving about perception and direction and associations. What are the specific ideas that you perceive as feminist and disagree with? (e: other than strawmen that no one else has mentioned and you don't have even an external source for) Western feminism has largely arrived a a decadent phase where most major battles have been won. The current crop of feminists leading the discussion are comprised mostly of cultural scolds, outright liars and anti-male activists. When a movement has to result to the twisting and outright misrepresentation of data on subjects such as the wage gap to generate outrage and fuel rape hysteria by demanding the implementation of kangaroo courts in higher education to fix a relatively small but serious problem, perhaps it's time to take a step back and realign the priorities. I'm actually in favor of women in combat roles in the military, just like I'm in favor of them having to register for the draft.
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Jan 25, 2017 07:45
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new phone who dis posted:Then why do people still claim to hold the values of equality while eschewing the label? Flowers For Algeria posted:A) there is nothing to gain at letting people outside of the movement rebrand feminism. "Feminism" is a word that has a history and that is associated with some of the greatest social advances in history. It places the focus on women, and this is the right thing to do because women are the oppressed minority in the patriarchy. "Equalism" or "egalitarianism" lack any form of frame of reference. Equality of what, between whom? Is anti-racism also egalitarianism? Is class struggle also egalitarianism? These labels ate meaningless.
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Jan 25, 2017 07:45
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Low Desert Punk posted:
Perhaps large segments of it have become worthy of mocking.
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Jan 25, 2017 07:46
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Flowers For Algeria posted:The answer is here in the thread. Feminism rebranded itself. Multiple times.
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Jan 25, 2017 07:46
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new phone who dis posted:Western feminism has largely arrived a a decadent phase where most major battles have been won. The current crop of feminists leading the discussion are comprised mostly of cultural scolds, outright liars and anti-male activists. When a movement has to result to the twisting and outright misrepresentation of data on subjects such as the wage gap to generate outrage and fuel rape hysteria by demanding the implementation of kangaroo courts in higher education to fix a relatively small but serious problem, perhaps it's time to take a step back and realign the priorities. I'm actually in favor of women in combat roles in the military, just like I'm in favor of them having to register for the draft. Well no actually this is the whole third wave idea coming in which posits that the critical analysis of feminism can actually be turned onto society as a whole and be used to attack almost all forms of inequality and injustice throughout that society. The idea that the major battles have been won assumes, I think, rather inaccurately, that feminist critique and theory needs to be limited in its scope and simply cannot be applied more widely, an assumption that I don't really find much supporting evidence for. Everything benefits from critical analysis.
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Jan 25, 2017 07:49
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new phone who dis posted:Western feminism has largely arrived a a decadent phase where most major battles have been won. The current crop of feminists leading the discussion are comprised mostly of cultural scolds, outright liars and anti-male activists. When a movement has to result to the twisting and outright misrepresentation of data on subjects such as the wage gap to generate outrage and fuel rape hysteria by demanding the implementation of kangaroo courts in higher education to fix a relatively small but serious problem, perhaps it's time to take a step back and realign the priorities. I'm actually in favor of women in combat roles in the military, just like I'm in favor of them having to register for the draft. And yet there is a wage gap, there is a huge gendered difference in job levels, in wealth, in access to public services ; women are still largely far more often the victims of sexual violence, and men are far more likely to be perpetrators of violence in general.
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Jan 25, 2017 07:52
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OwlFancier posted:Well no actually this is the whole third wave idea coming in which posits that the critical analysis of feminism can actually be turned onto society as a whole and be used to attack almost all forms of inequality and injustice throughout that society. The idea that the major battles have been won assumes, I think, rather inaccurately, that feminist critique and theory needs to be limited in its scope and simply cannot be applied more widely, an assumption that I don't really find much supporting evidence for. Everything benefits from critical analysis. That is no longer feminism or a movement about equality. It's a movement about the imposition of values ranging from reasonable arguments to the most extreme positions imaginable using feminism as a foot in the door or a cudgel, because you can always point to the default definition of feminism and ask people why they hate equality.
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Jan 25, 2017 07:52
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new phone who dis posted:That is no longer feminism or a movement about equality. It's a movement about the imposition of values ranging from reasonable arguments to the most extreme positions imaginable using feminism as a foot in the door or a cudgel, because you can always point to the default definition of feminism and ask people why they hate equality. You seem to be holding a pretty non-standard definition of feminism. Would you care to enlighten us?
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Jan 25, 2017 07:54
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Flowers For Algeria posted:And yet there is a wage gap, there is a huge gendered difference in job levels, in wealth, in access to public services ; women are still largely far more often the victims of sexual violence, and men are far more likely to be perpetrators of violence in general. And despite making up close to half the workforce, women are still much less likely to be killed or injured in the process of performing their duties.
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Jan 25, 2017 07:54
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