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Should it be legal for other people to assault you if they disagree with you? This poll is closed. |
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Yeah. The scary part about being in living history (ie, living, at all, on a day-to-day basis), is not really knowing where the inflection points are for various courses of action. I think it's clear that violent authoritarianism thrives in an environment that won't meet it with force, and I'm afraid that it's probably beyond time to keep that on the table in your list of options.Wild Horses posted:its time to put these fascists down with a good old fashioned civil war. 50% vs 50% right now I realize you're being facetious, but it is...fun?...to try to reason out the details of a proposal like that. Actual factual fascists: maybe %20 of the country, generously. People staunchly opposed enough to care: Maybe %40, %60 really generously. The leftists have most urban centers and a much larger proportion of the population, the right-wing has almost all of the guns and much of the farmland. And then we get to throw all those statistics out because the US Military exists. I mean, yeah, absolutely, gently caress the fascists, but civil war per se isn't even a thing in a dream. Fight, resist, just don't expect to be able to claim decisive victories or plant cool flags anywhere anytime soon (unless part of your civil disobedience is planting cool flags in which case please let me subscribe to your newsletter because that sounds awesome)
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Jan 26, 2017 11:53
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If I ever start singing Horst Wessel Lied I hope someone bashes my skull in.
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Jan 26, 2017 11:55
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Shady Amish Terror posted:I don't think it's exactly controversial to say most people, myself included, honestly want people supporting the current political clusterfuck to change their minds peacefully and rationally and oppose the creation of an authoritarian and possibly genocidal police state that is threatening their own rights and safety along with everyone else's. This is a good post. However, I think even the most ardent pacifist here would bend their rules in the face of abject extermination. But if someone thinks that motherfucking Shithead Spencer, with his duck-rear end haircut, talking about Pepe on a street corner is an extermination-level event that demands the immediate reassessment of a person's belief in the freedom of speech and the rejection of indiscriminate violence, then I worry. quote:Belting them one at that point might not be legally permissible, it might not even be how I wish things would go, but if it's enough to make them shut up and save someone else's life, then good. This is another thing, hitting him isn't saving anyone's life. He's just going to go home and touch himself as the google alerts he set for his own name start popping up. He's more famous then ever now. Drive-by punching this guy is like like the safety pin of antifascist efforts. It's not setting back fascism one inch; it's just something quick and easy someone can do to feel righteous. A small part of me wishes you guys would walk your talk and just take him out. It would still be wrong, but maybe you would be accomplishing something. Kubrick fucked around with this message at 12:24 on Jan 26, 2017 |
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Jan 26, 2017 12:19
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Hey now, let's be fair, you can't 'you guys' me on that one. Like I said, I'm some white milquetoast pacifist liberal motherfucker, and I have been eating poo poo left right and center the last couple of months. My entire world has been self-loathing since the election, I've clearly not managed anything proactive up to this point, not much reason to expect that change, unfortunately. I'm just admitting things have reached the point where I'm not going to tut-tut someone for believing that's the right course of action. For extra funnies, my go-to program for advocacy and donations was GOTV, so I'm, like, triple-useless.
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Jan 26, 2017 12:29
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Kubrick posted:This is another thing, hitting him isn't saving anyone's life. He's just going to go home and touch himself as the google alerts he set for his own name start popping up. He's more famous then ever now. Drive-by punching this guy is like like the safety pin of antifascist efforts. It's not setting back fascism one inch; it's just something quick and easy someone can do to feel righteous. A small part of me wishes you guys would walk your talk and just take him out. It would still be wrong, but maybe you would be accomplishing something. He may be more famous than ever now, but he's famous for being the punched face that launched a thousand liberal defences of openly-proselytized nazism far more than he's famous for his own message of hate. Among his supporters, whose strength depends on projection of power and intimidation I doubt him getting whacked in the face has been a galvanising factor.
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Jan 26, 2017 12:36
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Kubrick posted:This is another thing, hitting him isn't saving anyone's life. He's just going to go home and touch himself as the google alerts he set for his own name start popping up. He's more famous then ever now. Drive-by punching this guy is like like the safety pin of antifascist efforts. It's not setting back fascism one inch; it's just something quick and easy someone can do to feel righteous. A small part of me wishes you guys would walk your talk and just take him out. It would still be wrong, but maybe you would be accomplishing something. What it accomplishes is ridiculing him (quite effectively), making him appear weak and powerless (which he is), and actually scaring him. These gross idiots thrive on the notion that they can say the things they say publicly, and that at best, they'll be booed or there'll be a mild protest where someone will just cry a bit and sound upset, and then they can be like "aahh you seeee these liberals are so stupid aaaah" but they can continue doing this because some boos and mild protests are easy to dismiss. Their supporters can consider this cool. But it's one thing to keep your composture and 'turn the tables around' on people booing you or doing some weak chanting, and an entirely different thing to be caught in a physical situation (being pelted with things, being chased by a mob, being punched). We are not talking about a civil rights leader taking a punch here, it's a bunch of reactionaries whose appeal is precisely to be 'immune' to modern mores and to impotent liberalism. But no one's immune to a good punch in the face.
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Jan 26, 2017 12:48
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FreeKillB posted:For example, fighting actual Nazis (not internet Nazis) If you self-identify as a Nazi, you're a Nazi.
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Jan 26, 2017 12:49
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Shady Amish Terror posted:Hey now, let's be fair, you can't 'you guys' me on that one. Like I said, I'm some white milquetoast pacifist liberal motherfucker, and I have been eating poo poo left right and center the last couple of months. My entire world has been self-loathing since the election, I've clearly not managed anything proactive up to this point, not much reason to expect that change, unfortunately. I'm just admitting things have reached the point where I'm not going to tut-tut someone for believing that's the right course of action. You really want to fight fascism? Fascist ideologies prey on the weak, the lost, and those who crave approval and are lacking it. Go to the your local boys club and join a mentor program. It takes time. It's not as fun as hitting someone that angers you. But I guarantee you that you will be doing more for your fellow man than anyone posting "bash the fasc" on an Internet forum. Kubrick fucked around with this message at 12:56 on Jan 26, 2017 |
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Jan 26, 2017 12:49
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meanwhile, as this thread was going around in circles, https://twitter.com/babycommie666/status/824470856004833280
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Jan 26, 2017 13:02
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Kubrick posted:You really want to fight fascism? Fascist ideologies prey on the weak, the lost, and those who crave approval and are lacking it. Go to the your local boys club and join a mentor program. It takes time. It's not as fun as hitting someone that angers you. But I guarantee you that you will be doing more for your fellow man than anyone posting "bash the fasc" on an Internet forum. I agree with you here, albeit with the slight modifier that 'bash the fasc' isn't entirely without merit. I've got to get back to getting my own household in order first because I've been neglecting that too. I'm just still moping because I'm a big baby and basically everything I HAVE spent time and money on for years got its rear end kicked recently, so I apologize for the negativity.
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Jan 26, 2017 13:13
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Venomous posted:meanwhile, as this thread was going around in circles, https://twitter.com/babycommie666/status/824470856004833280 Let no Nazis go unpunched - twice!
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Jan 26, 2017 13:19
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Venomous posted:meanwhile, as this thread was going around in circles, https://twitter.com/babycommie666/status/824470856004833280 Sadly that actually turns out to be a photo of the first punch, the one preceding the more famous mid-interview punch. edit: https://twitter.com/elenacresci/status/824560454177619968
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Jan 26, 2017 13:34
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Venomous posted:meanwhile, as this thread was going around in circles, https://twitter.com/babycommie666/status/824470856004833280 Someone unironically holding up a "White Lives Matter" sign. Jesus Christ.
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Jan 26, 2017 13:37
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El Generico posted:Someone unironically holding up a "White Lives Matter" sign. Jesus Christ. It might be a "White Lives Matter Too Much" sign, there was one visible during his interview.
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Jan 26, 2017 13:41
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TomViolence posted:It might be a "White Lives Matter Too Much" sign, there was one visible during his interview. Ahh. That's actually pretty funny.
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Jan 26, 2017 13:43
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TomViolence posted:He may be more famous than ever now, but he's famous for being the punched face that launched a thousand liberal defences of openly-proselytized nazism far more than he's famous for his own message of hate. Among his supporters, whose strength depends on projection of power and intimidation I doubt him getting whacked in the face has been a galvanising factor. Case in point: https://twitter.com/jrhennessy/status/824442364018118660  These guys live on projecting a look of power and self-assurance. Getting punched in the face and whining about it projects neither.
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Jan 26, 2017 14:32
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Leftists are going to keep punching nazis, and you're never going to stop them by just talking to them and being peaceful, because punching nazis is something really important for them right now. And if you use violence to stop them from punching nazis, then... guess who it is... who has in fact become... the real nazis...
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Jan 26, 2017 14:41
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The last time anybody relied on liberals to peacefully defeat the fash the liberals went on to vote for giving Hitler dictatorial powers, so maybe they're not the very best possible allies here. So basically if you find yourself on the side of the the nazi getting punched rather than the person doing the punching you might want to take a step back and reexamine what the thell you're doing here.
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Jan 26, 2017 14:45
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I'll be concerned when they punch someone who isn't a literal Nazi. It's kind of hosed up that posters in this thread have already been posting about how the GOP is fascist and republican voters are fascist sympathizers. That is extremely dangerous rhetoric in a time where Nazi punching is good. If people start punching these standard ghoulish republicans then we are probably hosed.
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Jan 26, 2017 14:45
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Bob le Moche posted:Leftists are going to keep punching nazis, and you're never going to stop them by just talking to them and being peaceful, because punching nazis is something really important for them right now. And if you use violence to stop them from punching nazis, then... guess who it is... who has in fact become... the real nazis... I think the real nazis are still the guys arguing for ethnic cleansing. 
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Jan 26, 2017 14:45
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It does suck that there are people who aren't responding to requests to kindly stop advocating genocide, and who are instead getting punched. That's inoptimal, but if it comes down to fascists getting punched and then mocked for being punched versus fascists legitimizing their resurgence in world politics and enacting genocide, the former does seem preferable.
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Jan 26, 2017 14:45
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There is no moral dilemma to it. Punch these loving fascists right the gently caress out. Reason and discussion has failed (they never were going to engage in good faith) so now we begin to speak the language they'll loving understand.
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Jan 26, 2017 14:50
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The Kingfish posted:I'll be concerned when they punch someone who isn't a literal Nazi. I know, right, imagine if the right used dangerous rhetoric and the violent fallout that could ensue. Lucky they get a punch in the face for their troubles, really.
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Jan 26, 2017 15:39
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TomViolence posted:I know, right, imagine if the right used dangerous rhetoric and the violent fallout that could ensue. Lucky they get a punch in the face for their troubles, really. What's your point?
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Jan 26, 2017 15:43
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The Kingfish posted:What's your point? My point is that there's other rhetoric doing the rounds that's pretty much mainstream now in the new Trump reich and if you think it's dangerous to call fascists fascists or advocate physical resistance to fascism, it should also follow that you think that right wing rhetoric against minorities, muslims, women, feminism, LGBT people, blacks, hispanics and whoever else is even more dangerous, no?
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Jan 26, 2017 15:51
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Yeah.
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Jan 26, 2017 16:00
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Shady Amish Terror posted:It does suck that there are people who aren't responding to requests to kindly stop advocating genocide, and who are instead getting punched. That's inoptimal, but if it comes down to fascists getting punched and then mocked for being punched versus fascists legitimizing their resurgence in world politics and enacting genocide, the former does seem preferable. I mean, hopefully I don't have to argue against the proposition "violence is the ONLY way to get anything done". e: Like before this incident I had heard of Spencer, and my thought at the time was "it's awful that shitheads like this are anywhere near relevant for mainstream coverage" but in retrospect the coverage was of the 'Hail Trump' speech and was extremely unsympathetic on the merits. FreeKillB fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Jan 26, 2017 |
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Jan 26, 2017 17:34
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Ethnic Cleansing: an alarming political view
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Jan 26, 2017 18:09
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I'm thinking of making these as jacket/backpack/whatever patches: proceeds to go to a progressive charity (any suggestions?). Good idea/bad idea? Would you think people would want them? What colors would be good? WrenP-Complete fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Jan 26, 2017 |
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Jan 26, 2017 18:17
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Flesh Forge posted:Ethnic Cleansing: an alarming political view Maybe I should give an example to note that despite many efforts following this reasoning will not lead to simple 'Nazi' and 'not-a-Nazi' boxes as a coherent moral test to determine whom is to be denied the basic human right of bodily security. If your argument is that American Nazi Party rhetorical calls for ethnic cleansing justifies facepunching, then we should extend the same to all groups advocating for ethnic cleansing. I give the example of Hizb ut-Tahrir, a Islamist group calling for a reestablishment of the caliphate. They don't overtly call for violent acts right now, in part because they believe that such violence must be justified by a call to jihad from a legitimate Islamic authority. They aren't banned in the US, but are banned in many Arab countries and in Germany. In Australia, Tony Abbott's government attempted to ban them on charges of 'advocating genocide'. From the wikipedia page: "In the 1990s, Ata Abu Rashta, (HT’s current global leader and former spokesman), proclaimed that "peaceful relations with the Jews" or settling "for only part of Palestine" (such as the post 1967 territory of the West Bank and Gaza) is "prohibited by Islamic Law". "None of the Jews in Palestine who arrived after the destruction of the Ottoman Empire have the right to remain there. The Islamic legal rule requires that those of whom are capable of fighting be killed until none survive".[272] Later statements by HT spokespersons also emphasize the importance of Islamic control of every bit of Palestine (Taji Mustafa in 2008[107][273]) and rejecting negotiation in favor of military Jihad (Imran Wahid, January 2009[274][275])" My reading of this is as clear-cut a case of advocating ethnic cleansing as you can get. Under the proposed moral test, it would be cool and good for conservatives to go around sucker punch members of HT.
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Jan 26, 2017 18:26
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FreeKillB posted:Maybe I should give an example to note that despite many efforts following this reasoning will not lead to simple 'Nazi' and 'not-a-Nazi' boxes as a coherent moral test to determine whom is to be denied the basic human right of bodily security. If your argument is that American Nazi Party rhetorical calls for ethnic cleansing justifies facepunching, then we should extend the same to all groups advocating for ethnic cleansing. Exactly right. quote:My reading of this is as clear-cut a case of advocating ethnic cleansing as you can get. Under the proposed moral test, it would be cool and good for conservatives to go around sucker punch members of HT. If they're advocating ethnic cleansing then yes I agree they should get the fist.
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Jan 26, 2017 18:32
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Total Meatlove posted:If you vote for a Republican, and the reasons for that vote align with the nakedly fascist ideals of that party, then you're a fascist. Kubrick posted:I don't think you are being overbroad at all. I think a vast majority Trump supporters and political allies hold fascist or fascist-adjacent ideas. They certainly hold ideas like authoritarianism and xenophobia. Many would consider that grounds enough for the label of "fascist". I think they are scum, and am actively resisting them, but I still don't think it's ok for me to hurt them based on their thoughtcrimes. And since we're not in a literal civil war yet, we can treat differently our actual enemies, and the people who don't meet the criteria of "fascist" but who are helping them to power.
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Jan 26, 2017 19:00
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FreeKillB posted:I mean their beliefs are alarming, so .... yes?
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Jan 26, 2017 19:00
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Spunky Psycho Ho posted:There's about a 0.0% chance of Nazis taking over America. Nazis are not a threat at all. The majority of Americans are well acquainted with other races and Jewish people and aren't going to let their friends and co-workers be exterminated in camps. This is the worst.
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Jan 26, 2017 19:10
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The Kingfish posted:I'll be concerned when they punch someone who isn't a literal Nazi. This is basically the key point. It's not like punching Nazis is going to suddenly escalate into widespread indiscriminate violence. The second people start punching non-Nazis we can just say "whoa nope don't do that." And if a bunch of people do start punching non-Nazis, clearly our society has problems that run a lot deeper than just Nazi punching. Like, I don't think we should encode "randomly punching Nazis is legal" into our legal system because that could make things confusing, but I also see no problem with the morality of the act itself.
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Jan 26, 2017 19:27
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Kubrick posted:But if someone thinks that motherfucking Shithead Spencer, with his duck-rear end haircut, talking about Pepe on a street corner is an extermination-level event that demands the immediate reassessment of a person's belief in the freedom of speech and the rejection of indiscriminate violence, then I worry. Maybe you already know that, but your post kinda makes it seem like you think he got punched for the mere act of talking about Pepe. That is definitely not the case.
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Jan 26, 2017 19:34
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Never mind punching, shoving and shouting at nazis when they interfere with your art installation has now been conclusively proven to be an arrestable offence. Racists needn't worry, the state will always have their back.
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Jan 26, 2017 19:36
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Holy poo poo they actually arrested him for that? Fighting words, easy.
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Jan 26, 2017 19:43
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Nazis worship state power, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised at the massive pussies relying on the police to do their dirty work for them. Also I guess it was /pol/ or some similar squirming burrow of human effluent that was coordinating the interference.
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Jan 26, 2017 19:48
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Wild Horses posted:its time to put these fascists down with a good old fashioned civil war. 50% vs 50% right now You're forgetting that anyone who questions this plan to kill everyone who is fingered as a fascist will be considered to have outed themselves as fascist sympathizers, and will also need to be culled. Because it turns out that the tree of liberty doesn't need to be watered so much as drowned, and it's not so picky about where the blood comes from as you might expect. Kubrick posted:This is a good post. However, I think even the most ardent pacifist here would bend their rules in the face of abject extermination. I honestly don't mean for this to be insulting, but you don't have the slightest loving clue about what actual pacifists believe. Keeshhound fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Jan 26, 2017 |
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