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someone explain to me how solving the profit=theft aspect of capitalism solves alienation from labor once the pandoras box of industrialization is already opened. i havent read marx in over a decade so im sure im missing something obvious.
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# ? Jan 26, 2017 22:17 |
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# ? Jun 12, 2024 14:50 |
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Friendly Humour posted:Nigga pls, marginalism is so idiotic I don't even know where to begin with. It treats people as logical computers and it's really really stupid and its application by neoliberal asswipes has never ever had anything but utterly destructive results. My only point about evaluation being inseparable from human perception is that nothing trumps it. An object can definately be extremely costly to produce in terms of labour time and investments and large amount of exploitation, but if nobody wants to buy at the price asked, that value is completely meaningless. I'm just saying that the price of an object and profitability seems completely disconnected from its labour value. I'm saying that objects aren't valuable as themselves, only as objects of desire. I don't think any of this actually contradicts LTV though, because yes anyone can value anything how they like but a society doesn't function according to each of their subjective valuations. You're right that just working on something doesn't necessarily add value to it: society judges the product based on actual demand and that judgement values it, I think either Das Capital or Harveys reader on it explains that versions of the LTV had always said raw labour = value and so had never really worked properly and it was Marx who said that for work to produce value it has to be work which produces a need for society (hence the term socially necessary labour time to produce something being what adds value). Also I'm honoured that mine was the response that you picked
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# ? Jan 26, 2017 22:20 |
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namesake posted:^^Think you might need some anime for a post like that, Peel. i fear no sewerman
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# ? Jan 26, 2017 22:20 |
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Friendly Humour posted:i like to think that the niggagate played a part in that whats that
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# ? Jan 26, 2017 22:39 |
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jarofpiss posted:someone explain to me how solving the profit=theft aspect of capitalism solves alienation from labor once the pandoras box of industrialization is already opened. i havent read marx in over a decade so im sure im missing something obvious. My view of "alienation" is that it has more to do with whether or not you have the ability to determine the course of your work. Alienation in capitalism is a result of not feeling as though you have any real control over the conditions or methods of your workplace (because of the strict, autocratic hierarchy of the boss owning the assets and you merely assenting to work under the conditions they specify). I don't think the alienation caused by automation can ever be solved, but I don't believe it has as significant of an impact compared to the alienation of ownership of the workplace (which can be solved).
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 00:54 |
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Weeping Wound posted:EDIT: wait a second, Baloogan isn't in charge anymore! Good good, let the Prolix flow through you!
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 01:02 |
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Vermain posted:My view of "alienation" is that it has more to do with whether or not you have the ability to determine the course of your work. Alienation in capitalism is a result of not feeling as though you have any real control over the conditions or methods of your workplace (because of the strict, autocratic hierarchy of the boss owning the assets and you merely assenting to work under the conditions they specify). I don't think the alienation caused by automation can ever be solved, but I don't believe it has as significant of an impact compared to the alienation of ownership of the workplace (which can be solved). Things pertaining to every minute aspect of procurement, production, refinement, and distribution are becoming increasingly hard-coded into mandatory protocol for every facet of advanced planned economies. Innovation to fill a niche is being rooted out in this model, ultimately leading to full-automation. Hence, a backlash. Trains never always run on time, like stock investment advice sometimes fails, even for the most accomplished of inside traders. The gray and black markets exist to check and balance dehumanizing structures and regulations, lest humanity becomes extinct from sheer boredom. Laissez-faire capitalism, john galt libertarianism, and martian marxism are extremes which can never be fully realized. In practical and sustainable function they are unicorns and cannot exist. Man is a beast who craves structure, but lives in a state of turgid anarchy. T'is the nature of the beast. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 01:51 |
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mods please rename me ♂martian marxist♂Metal Pink Babble posted:Man is a beast Metal Pink Babble posted:a beast who craves structure Metal Pink Babble posted:in a state of turgid anarchy
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 02:18 |
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Metal Pink Babble posted:Things pertaining to every minute aspect of procurement, production, refinement, and distribution are becoming increasingly hard-coded into mandatory protocol for every facet of advanced planned economies. Are you a loving anime bad guy or what's the deal here?
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 04:20 |
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Vermain posted:Are you a loving anime bad guy or what's the deal here?
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 05:57 |
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What is a Man? A MISERABLE LITTLE CRAVER OF STABILITY!!!
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 05:58 |
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Marxism Thread: Are you a loving anime bad guy or what's the deal here?
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 06:32 |
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Martian Marxism?
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 06:58 |
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It's the red planet for a reason
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 07:21 |
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ThaumPenguin posted:Martian Marxism? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1Sq1Nr58hM
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 08:16 |
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wow im for real drunk ama
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 08:21 |
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jarofpiss posted:wow im for real drunk ama How do we get to Mars, comrade jarofpiss?
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 08:29 |
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jarofpiss posted:wow im for real drunk ama was 9/11 holograms or was it a collective hallucination?
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 08:34 |
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resar posted:was 9/11 holograms or was it a collective hallucination? we levitated the pentagon
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 12:29 |
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A world without some level of alienation would be a catastrophe, no one has the time or energy to be involved in the results of even their own labor, that full dealienation would require.
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 13:32 |
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Friendly Humour posted:My only point about evaluation being inseparable from human perception is that nothing trumps it. An object can definately be extremely costly to produce in terms of labour time and investments and large amount of exploitation, but if nobody wants to buy at the price asked, that value is completely meaningless. I'm just saying that the price of an object and profitability seems completely disconnected from its labour value. It's also worth noting that 'perception' as the root of value, in the sense you ask, is a circular definition. Why does something have value? Because it's seem as valuable! Why is something seen as valuable? Because it has value! It no more solves your value problem than does the LTV, but only the LTV ever gets criticized for it (mud-pie arguments).
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 13:40 |
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rudatron posted:A world without some level of alienation would be a catastrophe, no one has the time or energy to be involved in the results of even their own labor, that full dealienation would require. Nobody wants to have to make every single component in their PS4 or whatever, but the problem we actually care about is that capitalism creates conditions that alienate people from society itself in addition to labor.
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 13:59 |
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Friendly Humour posted:I'm just saying that the price of an object and profitability seems completely disconnected from its labour value. Enjoy posted:the price of a commodity is limited by the price of labour.
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 14:25 |
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jarofpiss trolled me irl by making fun of democratic centralism so he's a wrecker now and i always hated his posts
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 14:33 |
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if only he could have supported the party line
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 14:34 |
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also dave weigel is doing a story on the dsa and seems like an all right guy. i shudder to think what his bosses will do to it in editing
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 14:37 |
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Dreddout posted:How do we get to Mars, comrade jarofpiss? still drunk ama. also finally a question about the real red planet
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 14:48 |
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My gut tells me to never trust somebody who used to be an editor for Reason, but Weigel is at least, not an idiot.
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 14:49 |
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R. Guyovich posted:jarofpiss trolled me irl by making fun of democratic centralism so he's a wrecker now and i always hated his posts my most badass discourse comes out about 8 whiskeys deep
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 15:01 |
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i had a lot to say to that dave weigel guy but i forgot to corner him so he lucked out this time
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 15:05 |
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how is this real
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 17:24 |
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Vox magazine posted:We tend to think of rising income inequality as a 21st-century problem. A more equal distribution of wealth is normal, and the growing clout of the 1 percent is an anomaly.
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 17:26 |
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You can't just quote that and not link it as well.
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 17:37 |
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namesake posted:You can't just quote that and not link it as well. yeah, this that has to be one hell of an article
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 17:42 |
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It's indicative of just how little people actually understand about capitalism in general.
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 17:45 |
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http://www.vox.com/world/2017/1/23/14323760/inequality-europe-chart
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 17:47 |
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quote:Now, our current political turmoil — the rise of Donald Trump and the European far right — doesn’t really fit that pattern. Data suggests that supporters of these factions are more motivated by concerns over immigration and cultural change than inequality per se. Europeans growing more paranoid about foreign elements and clashes of civilizations during times of gross inequality doesn't fit into the pattern at all. When was the last time that happened?
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 17:56 |
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Sometimes I think people will figure out what's going on and then I read an article like that and I realize we are well and truly doomed.
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 18:05 |
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I wonder what was causing the increase in inequality from 1300 until the black death, was there a general movement towards centralising authority under the monarchs at the time, rather than strong aristocrats? Edit: That was the Little Ice Age, so population was static or falling mostly, maybe it really was just consolidation due to untimely deaths? namesake fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Jan 27, 2017 |
# ? Jan 27, 2017 18:20 |
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# ? Jun 12, 2024 14:50 |
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namesake posted:I wonder what was causing the increase in inequality from 1300 until the black death, was there a general movement towards centralising authority under the monarchs at the time, rather than strong aristocrats? The latest research in medieval studies indicates that there was considerable growth among the nobility, clergy, and merchant classes, because serfs got bupkis. In a system where everyone is obligated pay dues to their lord, or tithes to the church, then it's easy to accumulate wealth even in primitive conditions of production.
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 18:31 |