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please be We Are Federation Hooligans
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Jan 24, 2017 20:52
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Kanos posted:totally loving ruins it by having Frontal be so blown away by Banagher's refusal that he pulls a Roy Batty from Blade Runner literally out of nowhere. It's not really out of nowhere, since he spends the entire last episode (maybe more) trying to win Banagher and Mineva to his view point, and even when he generates a psycofield using the Neo Zeong he only uses it disable both the Unicorn and Banshee's weapons so that he can try to convince Banagher of the validity of his view, rather than use it to defeat him. He also seems to eventually sway from his "empty vessel", "whatever the people want" mind frame to his more selfish, nihilistic viewpoint during the last episode; and if I recall he mentions that he's no longer an empty vessel when confronting Banagher, Mineva and Siam Vist over the box. He didn't pull a Roy Batty out of nowhere - Banagher seeing the same emptiness and futility as he did but not becoming disillusioned by it left him with no further recourse, since there was nothing else he could think to say or do to get Banagher on his side. If seeing that anything he did would ultimately mean nothing and everything would eventually crumble away didn't make Banagher lose faith in life, and he wanted to do things even despite all that - then there's really nothing further he can do to dissuade him. At which point Lalah told him he should just stop fighting and move on, leaving the future in other's hands rather than trying to force it to his view. It's not particularly well done, especially Full Frontal's shift from an empty vessel to nihilism, which is entirely off screen and seems more done because it suits the plot than because it was where his character was destined to go, but it's still more than a last minute thing with no build up. tsob fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Jan 25, 2017 |
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Jan 25, 2017 18:37
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tsob posted:It's not really out of nowhere, since he spends the entire last episode (maybe more) trying to win Banagher and Mineva to his view point, and even when he generates a psycofield using the Neo Zeong he only uses it disable both the Unicorn and Banshee's weapons so that he can try to convince Banagher of the validity of his view, rather than use it to defeat him. He also seems to eventually sway from his "empty vessel", "whatever the people want" mind frame to his more selfish, nihilistic viewpoint during the last episode; and if I recall he mentions that he's no longer an empty vessel when confronting Banagher, Mineva and Siam Vist over the box. He didn't pull a Roy Batty out of nowhere - Banagher seeing the same emptiness and futility as he did but not becoming disillusioned by it left him with no further recourse, since there was nothing else he could think to say or do to get Banagher on his side. If seeing that anything he did would ultimately mean nothing and everything would eventually crumble away didn't make Banagher lose faith in life, and he wanted to do things even despite all that - then there's really nothing further he can do to dissuade him. At which point Lalah told him he should just stop fighting and move on, leaving the future in other's hands rather than trying to force it to his view. Again, I totally understand the philsophical battle in Unicorn 7. The magic suicide is the part I take issue with, but then again Unicorn 7 pretty much takes the symbolism of newtype miracles and turns them into DBZ powers anyway so what's a magic suicide added to the pile?
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Jan 25, 2017 19:40
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I'm not saying you don't understand it, I'm saying his suicide didn't come out of nowhere and there was at least a small bit of build up to his character doing so. Edit: I also think Unicorn's use of newtype powers is fairly in line with UC as a whole given that even as far back as Zeta Kamille was using them to summon ghosts, make the Zeta invulnerable, power up it's weapons and freeze The O in place, while ZZ had Judau assembling the ZZ with mental energy alone and using giant projections of himself to scare others. Newtype powers have been silly for a long time. Unicorn isn't really any worse in my opinion. tsob fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Jan 25, 2017 |
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Jan 25, 2017 19:51
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Full frontal doing a quick off screen character motivation shift is very in line with him being a CHAR. So, I'm no longer comfortable wearing a Zeon patch, for a number of reasons. Anyone ever see a decent aeug or karaba patch?
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Jan 25, 2017 20:01
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Just get a Turn A patch, or find out if there's a patch for Neo Japan/Neo America
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Jan 25, 2017 20:42
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Why not get a Titans patch?
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Jan 25, 2017 20:44
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I know they make Londo Bell patches
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Jan 25, 2017 20:45
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Belzac posted:Why not get a Titans patch? Get a Titans Test Team patch  It's so goddamn cute, it makes you forget that most of the TTT suits are based off of Watership Down.
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Jan 25, 2017 20:46
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A Karaba patch perhaps? Sure it's just the name, but at least they have minimal association with fascists and genocide.
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Jan 25, 2017 21:01
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ACES CURE PLANES posted:Get a Titans Test Team patch Also that they're working for the Space Gestapo.
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Jan 25, 2017 21:21
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Kabara and the AEUG order Bright to shoot a Hyper Mega Particle Cannon at Axis while it still had civilians living in it. They also were essentially fronts for AE to promote war, collect battlefield data, and increase purchase of their products.
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Jan 25, 2017 21:29
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Belzac posted:Kabara and the AEUG order Bright to shoot a Hyper Mega Particle Cannon at Axis while it still had civilians living in it. They also were essentially fronts for AE to promote war, collect battlefield data, and increase purchase of their products. Every post-OYW conflict is orchestrated by AE. Yes even the one in Turn-A.
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Jan 25, 2017 21:33
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It would have owned if the big plot twist in G-Reco was that the secret masterminds behind everything were just AE who had survived countless centuries and wanted to test their new Gundam models.
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Jan 25, 2017 21:36
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AE is nearly out of business by the events of F91 and Victory.
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Jan 25, 2017 21:40
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Thinking more deeply about it, gundam is kinda great for having about zero organizations that are not guilty of some great crime in some way.
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Jan 25, 2017 22:03
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DamnGlitch posted:Thinking more deeply about it, gundam is kinda great for having about zero organizations that are not guilty of some great crime in some way. Excuse me I think you'll find that Terminal is a flawless perfect group who does no wrong.
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Jan 25, 2017 22:04
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It was in seed, a wrong of great consequence
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Jan 25, 2017 22:43
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Belzac posted:AE is nearly out of business by the events of F91 and Victory. Clearly all the wars after that are part of some sort of Anaheim Electronics Seldon Plan that kept driving humanity back to conflict that specifically used very expensive giant robots.
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Jan 25, 2017 23:03
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Begemot posted:Clearly all the wars after that are part of some sort of Anaheim Electronics Seldon Plan that kept driving humanity back to conflict that specifically used very expensive giant robots. I'm sorry, Gundam Hari Seldon is Aeolia Sheinberg.
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Jan 26, 2017 00:15
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tsob posted:It's not really out of nowhere, since he spends the entire last episode (maybe more) trying to win Banagher and Mineva to his view point, and even when he generates a psycofield using the Neo Zeong he only uses it disable both the Unicorn and Banshee's weapons so that he can try to convince Banagher of the validity of his view, rather than use it to defeat him. He also seems to eventually sway from his "empty vessel", "whatever the people want" mind frame to his more selfish, nihilistic viewpoint during the last episode; and if I recall he mentions that he's no longer an empty vessel when confronting Banagher, Mineva and Siam Vist over the box. He didn't pull a Roy Batty out of nowhere - Banagher seeing the same emptiness and futility as he did but not becoming disillusioned by it left him with no further recourse, since there was nothing else he could think to say or do to get Banagher on his side. If seeing that anything he did would ultimately mean nothing and everything would eventually crumble away didn't make Banagher lose faith in life, and he wanted to do things even despite all that - then there's really nothing further he can do to dissuade him. At which point Lalah told him he should just stop fighting and move on, leaving the future in other's hands rather than trying to force it to his view. I thought the giant ring on the neo-zeong was actually designed to excite megaparticles. It isnt that he was only targeting their weapons out of pity, it is that the thing as designed causes the E-caps in their weapons to explode but can't affect the suits themselves.
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Jan 26, 2017 00:26
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The people who made Unicorn disagree.quote:Unicorn Staff He also wasn't only targeting the weapons out of pity, but because he flat out didn't want to kill them and only wished to disable them so that he could talk to them. tsob fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Jan 26, 2017 |
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Jan 26, 2017 04:31
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tsob posted:The people who made Unicorn disagree. Ah, fair enough. I was going by the initial model kit description, but developer Trump's thst and new type bullshit makes more sense anyways since it didn't damage any of his gear.
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Jan 26, 2017 10:15
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tsob posted:Edit: I also think Unicorn's use of newtype powers is fairly in line with UC as a whole given that even as far back as Zeta Kamille was using them to summon ghosts, make the Zeta invulnerable, power up it's weapons and freeze The O in place, while ZZ had Judau assembling the ZZ with mental energy alone and using giant projections of himself to scare others. For me it wasn't until ZZ that it for real became actual ghosts and got super out there in terms of Newtype wizardry, but even the wilder bits are still mostly explainable as symbolism. In Zeta you can read it as just a Newtype connection thing where you're seeing the various memories of the people and the person is drawing strength from that/revealing what an awful shitbag you were to them. I Fields are a thing so the Zeta barrier could just be that activated by brainwaves and the O had a Biosensor like the Zeta to aid in control (and also do magic baby things) so a guy being such an outrageously strong magic baby that he hijacks your special brainwave control thing with his own also isn't super crazy wizardry. It's also what the Unicorn does to hijack funnels I guess? Same with assembling the ZZ, it had stuff in it that made it basically a really big weird funnel? It just a different application of the brain baby, using it for something constructive instead of destructive. The big mental projection is needless though, MSG and Zeta already had Newtype "pressure" as a "killing intent"/aura thing that didn't really need to also have a visual component and then probably actual for real ghosts show up. Its possible to explain it as Judeau being such a powerful boy that he could tap in to other people's experiences as is expected of a Newtype and was representing the will of the people, but its not as clean as in Zeta for me. Again though, just me and I am fully prepared to admit that it could be bias because I like Zeta and do not think Unicorn is very good.
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Jan 26, 2017 18:31
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You see the ghosts go into the Zeta and Emma straight up says before she dies that she can feel the spirits of others flowing into the Zeta and that she will too when she dies. The ghost also aren't talking about things that happened before they died (Kamille drawing on experiences) but telling Scirocco (someone who is not even Kamille) that the Zeta can use their power.
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Jan 26, 2017 18:41
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The Newtype connection thing explains the talking to Scirocco bit and they can be psychological constructs based on Kamille's memories of them and the sorts of things they would say based on that.. Again though, I took the ghosts flying in as symbolism vs actual literal ghosts when I first watched Zeta and it fitting Kamille using the power of life and the bonds you make with others as a source of strength to defeat Scirocco who was a man who used others as tools and how he faked connections with people to manipulate them instead of actual bonds like Kamille. It wasn't until it happened again in ZZ that I thought they were meant to maybe be actual ghosts.
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Jan 26, 2017 18:59
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I took the ghosts as literal ghosts the first time I saw it and the explanation for it (the Biosensor thing) as a complete asspull. As well as every superpower Kamille got from it. There's a moment where you have to take a step back and say "man, this attempt at realistic robot does not work when it can become literally invincible by absorbing dead souls".
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Jan 26, 2017 19:07
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Yes. That's why I didn't interpret it that way when I first saw it. Because the literal interpretation ends with me going "this sequence of events is pretty silly" so I went with the other one, which I don't think is a huge stretch. Again though, I like Zeta so I am more inclined to go with a reading that doesn't make me go "that's stupid" vs someone who doesn't like it who probably would. There is nothing wrong with that reading either, I was just bringing up how the mentioned events could be seen more as symbolism and not actually real vs literal happenings like in Unicorn where a man's viewpoint is so thoroughly destroyed that he himself disintegrates.
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Jan 26, 2017 19:27
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*in han solo voice* It's true. All of it... It's all true.
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Jan 26, 2017 20:43
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Newtypes are cool and newtypes breaking reality is also cool. There's a reason they only do it at the end of the show.
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Jan 26, 2017 20:43
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EthanSteele posted:I Fields are a thing so the Zeta barrier could just be that activated by brainwaves I-fields are a thing, but they're not a thing the Zeta itself has. There's nothing ever brought up about it having one in the show, nor in any side material or gunpla manuals like the bio-sensor explanation. It's still possible to conclude that it has one, but even if you do it actually makes for worse writing in my opinion, since it relies upon the viewer inferring the existence of something the show makes no mention of and makes it rather of a deus ex machina to boot. Not that I'm opposed to your reading really, but you do appear to have to stretch things to get there. I don't hate the idea of newtypes doing ridiculous things like that seeing ghosts or stopping lasers though, and have always taken it as a literal thing for most instances (a few, like Dozle's aura excepted), so I'm completely used to the idea I suppose. tsob fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Jan 26, 2017 |
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Jan 26, 2017 21:53
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The funny thing about the biosensor is that it's just a psycommu system. Any psycommu equipped MA or MS could have done what the Zeta and ZZ do. As shown by the Quebely MK-2 going weird in Dublin.
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Jan 26, 2017 21:57
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tsob posted:I-fields are a thing, but they're not a thing the Zeta itself has. There's nothing ever brought up about it having one in the show, nor in any side material or gunpla manuals like the bio-sensor explanation. It's still possible to conclude that it has one, but even if you do it actually makes for worse writing in my opinion, since it relies upon the viewer inferring the existence of something the show makes no mention of and makes it rather of a deus ex machina to boot. Not that I'm opposed to your reading really, but you do appear to have to stretch things to get there. I don't hate the idea of newtypes doing ridiculous things like that seeing ghosts or stopping lasers though, and have always taken it as a literal thing for most instances (a few, like Dozle's aura excepted), so I'm completely used to the idea I suppose. I'm not really sure how "oh that mysterious device it has makes a barrier, like the Big Zam" is anymore of a deus ex machina than "oh that mysterious device it has can convert the souls of dead people into a barrier" but yeah I sorta see where you're coming from. I didn't think it was that much of a stretch but I suppose thats how it is with personal interpretations, they seem obvious and easy to you.
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Jan 26, 2017 22:26
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I think thag them being literal spirits makes more sense as a symbolic and narrative device than them being a technobabble handwave that isn't mentioned or explained.
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Jan 26, 2017 22:32
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Why can't it be both? Which is what the psycommu/biosensor official explanation thing is. Channeling the spirits of the dead through the weird brainlink link thing made for space psychics.
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Jan 26, 2017 22:36
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EthanSteele posted:I'm not really sure how "oh that mysterious device it has makes a barrier, like the Big Zam" is anymore of a deus ex machina than "oh that mysterious device it has can convert the souls of dead people into a barrier" but yeah I sorta see where you're coming from. I didn't think it was that much of a stretch but I suppose thats how it is with personal interpretations, they seem obvious and easy to you. It isn't really I suppose, but I don't see the need to invoke the bio-sensor to explain it either and just put it down to Kamille himself doing it, and that seems like less of deus ex machina to me since it follows on from other newtype stuff.
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Jan 26, 2017 22:47
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I mean, the bio-sensor/psycommu is just a magic box that lets newtypes do their thing on a bigger scale. They explicitly say in Zeta that even the people who made the things aren't sure what they're really capable of. It annoys me when people try to play down the newtype psychic power stuff when it's a foundational part of the whole series. Making a psychic force field isn't any less realistic than communicating psychically through the void.
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Jan 26, 2017 23:13
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tsob posted:The people who made Unicorn disagree. you'd think that this drat near magical device would have also blown up the unicorn's arms and legs, considering he busted out the robot kung fu shortly after.
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Jan 27, 2017 00:34
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It's a wish machine basically, yea. I suppose it takes a few seconds to set up and concentration to use though, so he couldn't really do it when Banagher was kung-fu'ing him.
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Jan 27, 2017 00:39
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It isn't a "handwave" in my opinion. Any psycommu system could manipulate the Minovsky particles of a beam saber to make it huge or block attacks but only Judau and Kamile (and later Banager) manage to do it. And it goes beyond that. Puru completely destroyed her own body and suit but was still able to control the particles after she stopped existing and threw them into the Psyco Mk-2. I subscribe to the belief that everyone in UC is a Newtype and their affinity with it is based on a combination of factors including their ability to disregard reality and logic. Their beam sword becomes large not because the biosensor has "sword_extended_func=1" but because that's what they knew it would do. They disregarded to logic that swords can't do that and did it anyway. It's shown that any newtype with sufficient reason can tap into the collective conscious of all living people and cause some serious poo poo.
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Jan 27, 2017 01:13
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