|
CarForumPoster posted:Im not that interested tbh. Why take off work, so I have a better BATNA? I'm not interested in leaving. And I can make reasonable estimates thanks to glass door and payscale, even correcting for their off averages. Best case is maybe my current position at a compa closer to .8-.9 (since I was promoted to a technical level that I haven't been out of school long enough for). Thats a short sighted choice compared to the benefits of where I work. Companies wont just randomly pay me 2x my salary when they can hire a similarly qualified person for 1x my salary and I can reasonably say that they can based on the data I have. Great job on not negotiating and it paying off somewhat for you. This is the negotiating thread so unless you can offer something useful for those who don't have the precise scenario you had where you got away with it why are you posting here? I mean you just said you're not interested in negotiating or evaluating the market.
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2017 17:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 18:34 |
|
|
CarForumPoster posted:2 Months ago I posted about another program in my company trying to take me and my current program shutting it down. A few of you got on your high horse like I'm the goon in the well. all of that advice is actually good advice even if you chose an alternative approach that worked, and none of it is overly confrontational you sensitive child
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2017 17:43
|
|
|
Are promotions generally only 12%? I got promoted in November and got a 20% raise. On that topic, what are typical % raises for promotions? Obviously they can vary widely, with outliers at both ends, but a general % range? e: of course, you should negotiate, but if you didn't and just said 'ok, I'll take the promotion', what would be typical for that? Cacafuego fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Jan 11, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2017 19:09
|
|
|
There is no typical percentage for promotions at all.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2017 19:17
|
|
|
Nail Rat posted:There is no typical percentage for promotions at all. Yep. There are a million different kinds of promotions. Getting promoted from floor mop to fry cook is going to look a lot different than Senior Manager to Director of North America.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2017 19:22
|
|
|
baquerd posted:Interesting, I've found it to be fairly reliable and matching other sources, but I've generally worked for large corporations. The more data points reporting, the better, of course. FWIW those were companies of 6000 people, > 300,000 people, and now > 200,000 people. My current position the salary portion is accurate if you look at the top end, but that's because there is a hard limit on salary at this company where the rest of your compensation beyond that transition to RSUs.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2017 19:24
|
|
|
Kalenn Istarion posted:Great job on not negotiating and it paying off somewhat for you. This is the negotiating thread so unless you can offer something useful for those who don't have the precise scenario you had where you got away with it why are you posting here? I mean you just said you're not interested in negotiating or evaluating the market. I am very interested in negotiating and do negotiate within my company often. Some example of this are getting to go to additional training (in fun cities) that is beyond my work scope but prepares me for what I want to do next (This has netted about $6000/yr in travel/training), making arguments to get additional people to our team (we have a loan in now to lighten our load we wouldn't otherwise), paying for a Master's degree (This costs my company $15k/yr and me $0/yr), and probably some others. I also negotiated when I got this job 2 years ago and the result was a salary higher than what my data said it should've been. While I may not have negotiated in this instance I certainly spent months marketing myself for this promotion. I generally post here to give people advice. In this case the useful advice is "be patient", don't get angry or react too quickly. The learned lesson is 1) Ask for your compa ratio cause hey they might tell you and 2) be patient. The advice/lesson is not "don't look for other jobs" and being patient doesn't have to involve that. As many people have pointed out, it doesn't hurt to look for other jobs and I agree thats generally good advice. Its not useful in my exact case but agree that isn't the general case. EDIT: This guy is the overly confrontational one btw: Dwight Eisenhower posted:This almost certainly won't work. Dwight Eisenhower posted:Congratulations. Being well liked by my management coupled with my work performance and other parties interest in me is what got me promoted. You have a lot of claims about me and my personality but the data says otherwise. Chill. CarForumPoster fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Jan 12, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2017 01:13
|
|
|
no one cares about your weird issues
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2017 01:49
|
|
|
CarForumPoster posted:I generally post here to give people advice. In this case the useful advice is "be patient", don't get angry or react too quickly. So if it doesn't hurt to look for other jobs why didn't you? You say it isn't useful in your particular case but haven't provided a single reason why that's so, aside from that you apparently don't care about getting a better BATNA... so why bother posting as if this is elucidating for anyone else? Without a good reason for the above, the takeaway advice from your case so far is "do nothing and get lucky".
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2017 04:13
|
|
|
CarForumPoster posted:You have a lot of claims about me and my personality but the data says otherwise. Chill.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2017 05:43
|
|
|
How does one best go about applying for an open position in one's own company? A friend is working at a decent sized company, about 2000 people in head office and 10k world wide. The role is OK, but not stellar, and she's slightly underemployed. Now the company is looking (externally) for a candidate which matches her profile rather well. What are the unwritten rules for applying for a position like this? Like in any other scenario, I guess the goal is to not let it backfire on you. I have no idea what the policies/traditions in this company are on internal recruiting. Is it best to apply "externally" like any other candidate, or should one have a lunch with the potential dept. leader and do it a bit more unofficially.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 10:26
|
|
|
just apply for it. if she knows anyone that knows people involved with that team try to leverage that connection prior to them going through resumes. if her current boss isn't a wad, bring it up to them and see if they can help.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 14:05
|
|
|
bolind posted:How does one best go about applying for an open position in one's own company? I would call the manager to have lunch and to discuss fit as well as apply. Order is not strict IMO.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 23:48
|
|
|
I done goofed. I've been looking for a full-time job with benefits after graduating from college last summer and networked a little bit with an employee of a local small company. When some new entry-level positions opened up for that company, the employee ended up forwarding my résumé along to HR & a hiring manager. HR later asked me to fill out an application and schedule an interview, all without informing as to exactly what position I was applying for (there were a few different ones open at the time for which my skill set was a decent match). I felt the interview I had with the manager and a team member went rather poorly based on what I had read in the Résumé/Interview Thread, but they made a few comments that suggested otherwise. Imagine my surprise when I received an offer letter two days later.  Turns out I should have read ahead to the end of the book first though, because I made some amateur mistakes on the application, filling out a "desired salary" field and listing my wage for the internship I had two years ago. Before I filled those fields out, I did some research on salaries for some of the job titles I thought the position might have, but they were varied and the job title in the offer is something different (but closely related, even if it's not the kind of job I was hoping to land), so the range I listed turns out to be ~±8% of the median salary in the area for that type of job. They, of course, came in at the bottom end of that range, which would only be about 8% above the equivalent salary for my internship's hourly wage.  Do I have any options here? My BATNA's continued unemployment, so I feel like I don't. I read the transcript of the salary negotiation podcast with Mr. Doody that was linked upthread and in the OP, so I know I should negotiate, but the offer's only valid for two business days (seems pretty short) on top of everything else, which makes me hesitant. I was planning on countering with asking for a little more than the median salary for the actual position instead of the things I was looking at and performance reviews every six months for the first two years; does that seem reasonable? 
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2017 22:47
|
|
|
Auralsaurus Flex posted:Do I have any options here? My BATNA's continued unemployment, so I feel like I don't. I read the transcript of the salary negotiation podcast with Mr. Doody that was linked upthread and in the OP, so I know I should negotiate, but the offer's only valid for two business days (seems pretty short) on top of everything else, which makes me hesitant. I was planning on countering with asking for a little more than the median salary for the actual position instead of the things I was looking at and performance reviews every six months for the first two years; does that seem reasonable? 1) They can make the offer good for as long as they want. This sort of language is to elicit a fast response. Give them one since you're going to negotiate. 2) State that the offer is below the expected salary now that you understand the job and benefits package and you'd agree on $Xk in light of this new information. Phrase it however you want, but it sounds like this is the actual reason youre unhappy that they hit the bottom of your range. This is a simple, straightforward, honest answer that doesnt lie about your BATNA. 3) IMO the performance review every 6 month things is not something you should count on. As many beat me on the head about your big raises come from moving jobs like youre doing now, not usually from performance reviews.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2017 23:42
|
|
|
Entry level jobs don't have much room to negotiate and you probably will have your ask rejected but it doesn't usually hurt to try.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2017 03:21
|
|
|
Auralsaurus Flex posted:I done goofed. It shouldn't hurt to ask, and if it does you might be dodging a bullet anyway. You don't have any leverage to speak of, so the way it probably works out is: You: "Please sir can I have some more?" Them: "More? No!" You: "Okay I'll take the job anyway  "Your communication is difficult to disambiguate: Did you list your wage for your internship? Did you list a salary range that was +/-8% of the median salary in your area? If you listed a range and they came in at the bottom of it they might be more open to negotiating. They may have multiple candidates, or the ability to leave the position unstaffed rather than hire a person who is both unproven and expensive. Why should they hire you? Why should they hire you at the median salary? You are an unproven quantity, why should they pay you more than the bottom of the barrel? I'm not posing these questions to tear you down, rather you should craft your communication to tackle these ideas. You can fall back on your internship experience, relevant coursework, recommendations from people at your internship if you can get them, etc. The two times that are most difficult to negotiate are when you are just starting out, and when you have no job. If you can put in a year of getting ripped off salary wise and doing good works, then you can start hunting for better opportunities with a proven track record, and at least the BATNA of continuing employment where you are. It's hard to hear that you gotta keep waiting to get into the game, but you're near the end, and at least you know to start playing. I spent the better part of 7 years wandering around cluelessly, and being undercompensated, before I pulled my head out of my rear end and started playing the game.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2017 16:45
|
|
|
I've been unemployed (laid off) since July 2016 and will be walking into a on-site interview with a manufacturing company for an Environmental Manager position. A few factors lead me to believe the company is pretty interested in me, though I'm trying not to get my hopes up: 1) HR contacted me to set up a phone screening the same week I applied for the job. Typically I have to weeks before I hear anything. 2) Phone screening with HR was Friday. Phone interview with department director (my potential boss) was the following Monday. She stressed she wants the position filled the first or second week of February. Mercifully she has not indicated if they are interviewing anyone else, which I appreciate. 3) I was contacted again by HR the same Monday and asked to come to an on-site interview with both the department director and general manager the following Thursday. HR has asked I fill out a 'Candidate Form' ahead of this interview, covering general info including previous employment and references. It also asks for desired salary, which I don't want to fill in. I'm planning on filling it out and not submitting it until the morning of the interview, and just putting 'Negotiable' in the salary field. My problem is I don't even know what is appropriate to ask for. When I research the position online, I see salary estimates ranging from $65,000 to $100,000, depending on the source. I don't want to shoot myself in the foot (being underpaid for the amount of work I'll be doing) but I am also at a pretty desperate place. I have one week of unemployment left. Can anyone point me in the right direction? My worst fear is the interview coming to rear end-grinding halt because I refuse to name a salary first and not really keeping my cool to proceed forward.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2017 05:41
|
|
|
What are the industry, region, and job responsibilities? When asked the salary question, I defer to the, "I'd prefer to ensure that we both agree that I am a great fit for this position and can add significant value to your business before discussing compensation." If pressed, I say "I'd love to evaluate your offer in full including salary in addition to benefits and other forms of compensation."
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2017 05:57
|
|
|
Saint Fu's given you good deflection strategies for not answering. In addition, it's important you do the thing we hammer on over and over and over again in this thread: Examine your BATNA. In this case, it's continuing to be unemployed with unemployment insurance paying out for one more week. Your BATNA is significantly bad. Usually the advice we give is pushing people to be more aggressive and confrontational, because usually people have a pretty decent position and just need to be nudged toward standing up for themselves. I think that in your situation it would be more prudent to be elusive than aggressive. This doesn't change what you should do dramatically in terms of opening plays. Still try to avoid naming a salary. Still try to focus on demonstrating your value as an employee. Still try to get them to provide an offer first. They also appear to have a bad BATNA. They're very responsive to you as a candidate, they're trying to move things along quickly, and they are clearly interested in hiring you. From here out you want to be stingy with what you disclose in terms of your position negotiating. Additionally, because your BATNA is poor, you need to remember that every time you raise a point of contention (e.g. salary), and then fold on it, you're providing your counterparty information. If you try to avoid naming a salary first and then fold, you're demonstrating that you don't have a great alternative. If you push and fold repeatedly, you're demonstrating to your counterparty that you have nothing and are just bluffing. Practically what this means is: 1) Choose your battles carefully, you want to go after low hanging fruit and set the bar at a place where you're likely to win for each negotiating point. 2) Keep in mind how many times you have to cave to their demands. If you get to three or more, you will likely be better off taking what they offer than pushing and folding. 3) Keep in mind how many times they cave to your demands too. NEVER revisit something you win on to try and juice it more, but if they're giving into your demands you can grow confident in making more of them. A lot of times all we need to tell people is to ask for more and stick up for themselves, but you've got more at stake and a more difficult position. You're doing research and making plans ahead of time which already puts you way ahead of the game. You can still make the best of this situation, and I'm confident given how seriously you're taking it that you will.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2017 15:30
|
|
|
Saint Fu posted:What are the industry, region, and job responsibilities? Job is in near PA/Ohio border, which tends to fall below the national average salary for most positions. The company is a steel tube manufacturer. Job description and requirements are as follows: quote:Description I have over 5 years of environmental regulation experience and 2 bachelor degrees (biology and forensic science). The Director also stressed this position is responsible for managing their more environmentally demanding facilities. I would be part of a team of 4 individuals (3 managers and director) spread across the US and Canada. Saint Fu posted:When asked the salary question, I defer to the, "I'd prefer to ensure that we both agree that I am a great fit for this position and can add significant value to your business before discussing compensation." If pressed, I say "I'd love to evaluate your offer in full including salary in addition to benefits and other forms of compensation." I'll definitely try this. Thanks. Dwight Eisenhower posted:Extremely useful info. My BATNA has been in the back of my mind this whole time. I'm hoping this won't affect any offer they may throw out, but I'm sure it will. I'm spending my time ahead of the interview researching some of the industrial processes they use so that I can ask smart questions, not, "What is this, and what in the world is it for?"
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2017 16:56
|
|
|
Interesting. I can't really help you salary wise. The job description sounds like they need a chemical engineer if part of your job is going to be operating their waste water and acid recovery plants. That'd be a good question, specifically what would your responsibilities be in that regard. Would you be managing the board/field operators, is there an engineer dedicated to the units, is there a corporate expert who you will be able to consult with? Get familiar with the air (NOx, SOx, CO2, particulates, etc) and water (volumes, treatment requirements) emissions regulations in that part of the country and the entities that govern them (if any). I'd want to know some specifics about their plants, the capacities, if they are responsible for production bottlenecks under any conditions, are there any reliability and integrity people dedicated to them, will you need to be interfacing with any 3rd party service providers on a regular basis. For salaries I'd look up chemE salaries and environmental engineering salaries in the area for some additional data points.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2017 22:36
|
|
|
Well I think the interview went well and I was able to confidently answer questions pertaining to the specific work that will be done. They grilled me a lot on project management and how I would handle hypothetical situations. I think I conveyed a good level of competency. Salary never came up at all which worries me. Who knows. I've had interviews where salary came up in the phone screening before any actual interview. It has yet to come up in this process. Hopefully I get a phone call/email this afternoon.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 17:49
|
|
|
Venkmanologist posted:Well I think the interview went well and I was able to confidently answer questions pertaining to the specific work that will be done. They grilled me a lot on project management and how I would handle hypothetical situations. I think I conveyed a good level of competency. FWIW, My experience across 30ish interviews has only been the opposite (for companies >100 employees) when it comes to what my salary WILL be. By the time they get there they're clearly very interested. As for my "expectations" they usually ask that right away or when I apply.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 23:14
|
|
|
CarForumPoster posted:Being well liked by my management coupled with my work performance and other parties interest in me is what got me promoted. You have a lot of claims about me and my personality but the data says otherwise. Chill. your data that says you're paid 25% below industry average?
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2017 18:33
|
|
|
the talent deficit posted:your data that says you're paid 25% below industry average? 28%, and yes. I am 3 years out of school being paid 28% less than someone who is 7.5 years out of school. 7.5 being the average experience of someone at my level. EDIT: So to be on track by year 7.5, I would need to get 7.57% raises each year to be paid the average by the time I reach average tenure. My raises have been 7% and 12% in my 2 years here. Thus my strategy would be to get >8% raises or consider leaving/moving within the company. Also, not sure how my company calculates it, if its not adjusted for cost of living (which is .93 best I can tell) then its actually an adjusted compa of .774 and I would need a 5.75% each year raise to stay on track. Also, as I've mentioned a few times, they pay nearly $20k/yr for my masters/training that I dont think is counted toward that. CarForumPoster fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Jan 28, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2017 01:51
|
|
|
You should stop posting advice. Just in case anyone listens to you.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2017 03:10
|
|
|
Jordan7hm posted:You should stop posting advice. You should quantify how your career is doing that merits your great ideas.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2017 03:19
|
|
|
I'm 35 and a VP at a public company whose responsibility includes contract negotiations and I'm making over $200k a year in base salary, plus I receive a bonus and stock options. I think your advice is stupid and mostly centred around mentally justifying the lovely situation you allow yourself to remain in. Is that sufficiently credible for you to stop telling people stupid things and representing it as 'advice' about negotiating? Kalenn Istarion fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Jan 28, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2017 03:42
|
|
|
CarForumPoster posted:You should quantify how your career is doing that merits your great ideas. i dropped out of school to make video games, almost immediately quit that industry to spend a decade as an artist in the film industry and now i make $220k as a programmer specializing in distributed systems and ~*~big data~*~ three years ago i was making $90k in my first job as a programmer since the video games days
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2017 03:47
|
|
|
the talent deficit posted:i dropped out of school to make video games, almost immediately quit that industry to spend a decade as an artist in the film industry and now i make $220k as a programmer specializing in distributed systems and ~*~big data~*~  
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2017 03:49
|
|
|
Kalenn Istarion posted:I'm 35 and a VP at a public company whose responsibility includes contract negotiations and I'm making over $200k a year in base salary, plus I receive a bonus and stock options. That's excellent. Is there some advice I've given others you disagree with or is it mostly my attitude about liking what I've accomplished personally and being standoffish about it? the talent deficit posted:i dropped out of school to make video games, almost immediately quit that industry to spend a decade as an artist in the film industry and now i make $220k as a programmer specializing in distributed systems and ~*~big data~*~ Congrats!
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2017 03:50
|
|
|
CarForumPoster posted:That's excellent. Is there some advice I've given others you disagree with or is it mostly my attitude about liking what I've accomplished personally and being standoffish about it? All of it, mostly. I've commented previously on the bits I specifically thought were bad If you are satisfied with your situation that's great for you.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2017 03:51
|
|
|
I'm not gonna post numbers here but needless to say I'm 29, a programmer, and make a comparable salary to those posted already. I've doubled my salary in a single, aggressively-negotiated job change. I don't think you're a mega-idiot or anything but I think your loyalty is misplaced and, if push came to shove, it would not be reciprocated by your company. I think many people end up complacent in where they are and encouraging others to embrace that is pointing them in the wrong direction. If you had just posted about yourself I'd have left it alone, but you encouraged others to do the same and that compelled me to respond. You set the tone.  PS Not a very good  in this forum
Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Jan 28, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2017 04:05
|
|
|
Most of these are fair replies and I will have a different tone. It wasn't meant to be directed to everyone but rather that guy specifically because he is not in the same boat you all are. I agree that no one should be complacent. Some see what I described as patient as complacent, I can see why even if I disagree. 
CarForumPoster fucked around with this message at 04:25 on Jan 28, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2017 04:13
|
|
|
Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:I'm not gonna post numbers here but needless to say I'm 29, a programmer, and make a comparable salary to those posted already. I've doubled my salary in a single, aggressively-negotiated job change. I don't think you're a mega-idiot or anything but I think your loyalty is misplaced and, if push came to shove, it would not be reciprocated by your company. I think many people end up complacent in where they are and encouraging others to embrace that is pointing them in the wrong direction. If you had just posted about yourself I'd have left it alone, but you encouraged others to do the same and that compelled me to respond. You set the tone. FWIW I'm in a similar boat. 28, a programmer and I was with a company whose job I liked and I felt some sense of loyalty to them and didn't feel like I could replicate that job elsewhere (particularly at what I thought was a high salary of ~180k between base and RSUs). Ended up they laid me off and I ended up with a new job that I liked and played multiple competing companies off of each other to end up with a 300k salary between base and RSUs. Do never assume that your company cares about you or that you can't get something better without looking.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2017 17:55
|
|
|
I also make a lot of money.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2017 18:48
|
|
|
You guys are making me jealous. I'm 35 and recently changed careers. I'm making under $60k. I feel like I'll never catch up, even if I take advantage of the great advice and strategies mentioned in this thread. I'm a lot better off than I was a few years ago, but it will be at least a few years before my income hits 6 figures.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2017 19:27
|
|
|
JohnnyPalace posted:You guys are making me jealous. I'm 35 and recently changed careers. I'm making under $60k. I feel like I'll never catch up, even if I take advantage of the great advice and strategies mentioned in this thread. I'm a lot better off than I was a few years ago, but it will be at least a few years before my income hits 6 figures. That's very respectable and frankly seeing some of the programmer salaries is making me wish I had focused on my programming degree instead of my business one You also are looking at a selection of people who chose to disclose what they make to shut up a nerd who was giving bad advice so it's not exactly a representative sample
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2017 20:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 18:34 |
|
|
CarForumPoster posted:You should quantify how your career is doing that merits your great ideas. I went back to school after a decade in management and commission sales because my career had stalled. I am now doing consulting with one of the big 4, but am fairly entry level. What bothers me about your advice is that I lived that advice and it doesn't work. Companies do not owe you anything. You can't afford to be complacent about your own career. But - if you want to take a calculated risk, you absolutely should. That's going to be your call because only you know the situation. You just shouldn't give advice to others based on that.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2017 21:52
|
|