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ImpAtom posted:Hahahahahaha. It's actually good and fun.
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Jan 28, 2017 20:13
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bloodychill posted:It's actually good and fun. So is Kingdom Hearts.
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Jan 28, 2017 20:15
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Yeah but summons kind of sucked in 12 and 13 so if the options is "A long but powerful spell animation" and "A kind of useless monster that replaces two or more party members that were way more useful" I think the former's probably the better way to go. Yeah but you glossed that they're insanely OP in FFX. Likewise they kinda suck rear end in FFXV because they're functionally uncontrollable and thus basically worthless. bloodychill posted:It's actually good and fun. Nah. Most FF games are utter disasters of design. We've had multiple games where core defense mechanics don't actually work, character balance is insanely off, it has lots of problems with pacing and upgrades, and so-on. I'm not going to blame a combat system for falling apart at the very highest level because that's difficult to work with but most FF combat systems don't hold up for the length of the story. KH is, on the whole, much better designed than FF is, even though it has plenty of flaws of its own. I'd certainly say its better at action combat than FFXV is. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Jan 28, 2017 |
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Jan 28, 2017 20:15
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ACES CURE PLANES posted:So is Kingdom Hearts. Gonna hit you with my giant key if you keep these bad opinions up, mister.
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Jan 28, 2017 20:17
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ImpAtom posted:Nah. Most FF games are utter disasters of design. We've had multiple games where core defense mechanics don't actually work, character balance is insanely off, it has lots of problems with pacing and upgrades, and so-on. I'm not going to blame a combat system for falling apart at the very highest level because that's difficult to work with but most FF combat systems don't hold up for the length of the story. Nah, it's actually fun and ATB is pretty cool, as are the job systems and skill system such as materia, ff9 item stuff, the ffx sphere grid, the esper system. All fun and good stuff. I'm sorry you don't have fun playing Final Fantasy games, ImpAtom 
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Jan 28, 2017 20:18
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ImpAtom posted:Yeah but you glossed that they're insanely OP in FFX. Likewise they kinda suck rear end in FFXV because they're functionally uncontrollable and thus basically worthless. Oh no you're right, but one game doing them amazing doesn't suddenly make "This is a big pretty spell" style a bad option, especially to the point of being a major point on a Pro/Con list,
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Jan 28, 2017 20:20
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bloodychill posted:Nah, it's actually fun and ATB is pretty cool, as are the job systems and skill system such as materia, ff9 item stuff, the ffx sphere grid, the esper system. All fun and good stuff. I'm sorry you don't have fun playing Final Fantasy games, ImpAtom I do have fun playing them, I can just also recognize they are tire fires of design problems. v  vZenMasterBullshit posted:Oh no you're right, but one game doing them amazing doesn't suddenly make "This is a big pretty spell" style a bad option, especially to the point of being a major point on a Pro/Con list, I think it does to be honest for one reason: Making Summoning into a spell really limits it. It just makes it a Black/White magic spell with a fancier animation. If they just replaced Fire 3 with Summon Ifrit or whatever it wouldn't actually change much. Summons look cool but at the end of the day they're just a higher tier magic spell. Which isn't inherently bad but kinda makes the difference between Summon and Black Magic paper thin. (Especially noteworthy with Rydia who has both.) Trying to make summons into something besides high-tier spells is neat even if it hasn't worked out.
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Jan 28, 2017 20:20
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ATB is a pretty boring but inoffensive system held up by interesting (though invariably broke as hell) customization or growth systems.
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Jan 28, 2017 20:23
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ImpAtom posted:I do have fun playing them, I can just also recognize they are tire fires of design problems. v They are actually really well-designed. The combat clicks and the difficulty curve works extremely well such that you never have to grind in any games from 4 onward unless you want to do special bosses. Just some really top tier RPG stuff. I like them so much I post about it here in this thread.
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Jan 28, 2017 20:23
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Kingdom Hearts 2 is the only game in the series that has outstanding combat. KH1 is bang-on average and BBS is broken and downright woeful at times. If KH3 doesn't pick up where KH2 left off then there's going to be big problems. The Final Fantasy series just suffers from the fact that you can level up more to make things easier. It's tough to make every battle challenging given party restrictions at the mercy of the story and the sheer volume of battles through each story. In a lot of cases it's not particularly engaging, but the battles aren't the primary allure of the series.
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Jan 28, 2017 20:25
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bloodychill posted:They are actually really well-designed. The combat clicks and the difficulty curve works extremely well such that you never have to grind in any games from 4 onward unless you want to do special bosses. Just some really top tier RPG stuff. I like them so much I post about it here in this thread. You never have to grind in most JRPGs. You don't have to do it in FF because the difficult curve is basically non-existent in most of them. Like yeah you never need to grind in FF6 because Memory-Autocrossbow can carry you through 90% of encounters until the World of Ruin by its lonesome. Hell, I'd even say spinoffs and side material are much better about combat systems than the mainline games.
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Jan 28, 2017 20:27
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The only FF game that was tightly designed with combat in mind and had a well developed system that couldn't be outleveled was FFXIII. They'll probably never do that again.
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Jan 28, 2017 20:27
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ImpAtom posted:You never have to grind in most JRPGs. You don't have to do it in FF because the difficult curve is basically non-existent in most of them. Like yeah you never need to grind in FF6 because Memory-Autocrossbow can carry you through 90% of encounters until the World of Ruin by its lonesome. Hell, I'd even say spinoffs and side material are much better about combat systems than the mainline games. I don't know about that, the games are pretty fun and I used to see people complain about getting stuck at boss fights all the time on gamefaqs because they couldn't figure out basic poo poo and told by other people to grind by other people who didn't know how to use game systems or read tutorials.
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Jan 28, 2017 20:30
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If you can put the disc in your system, you can make it through an FF game without grinding. It is very rare that it asks you to engage with its systems on a meaningful level for 90% of most games. That isn't good design. That doesn't mean they're bad games.
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Jan 28, 2017 20:30
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bloodychill posted:Nah, it's actually fun and ATB is pretty cool, as are the job systems and skill system such as materia, ff9 item stuff, the ffx sphere grid, the esper system. All fun and good stuff. I'm sorry you don't have fun playing Final Fantasy games, ImpAtom Those are cool but they aren't the things wrong with the base mechanics design nor are the anything that even attempts fixing any of the problems in them? Final Fantasy is kind of an entry level RPG franchise, with usually very simple mechanics and intentionally simple boss/encounter designs that don't really stress the player too much. There's nothing wrong with that, but it is what it is. I mean in 90% of the games a large portion of your options (Special attacks, status effects, spells that aren't pure elemental weakness damage) are either horribly ineffective or absolutely useless. Even in games where the mechanics are pretty thought out they don't go out of their way to make it require too much forethought or mastery to get through anything. Hell the only games they've made that actually expected at least a little bit of understanding in the mechanical systems and wanted you to use all the poo poo they gave you instead of just hoping you ignore all the useless poo poo to get through the game and not just face roll it with auto attacks were 5 and the 13 Series. 5 is arguably the best FF classic style game where almost all your options were actually good and usable and they crafted a leveling/customization that actually used those mechanics to work together and then design fights to test your knowledge and skill at setting up these combinations. 13 and LR expect you to apply every ability, including your defensive and status changing ones consistently, and makes some boss fights that are absolutely punishing if you haven't figured out how the game is meant to be played. Compare those to FF4 or 6 or 9 or 7 where your best bet at every turn is to just push the button that makes the biggest numbers happen. You just need to make the most math happen. Nothing hits so hard that the defensive abilities are necessary, even if the enemies weren't immune to most of them status effects still have hilariously low success rates, etc. That's ignoring of course the tendency in old games to have busted stats or mechanics that just didn't actually do anything because of bugs. Final Fantasy is a franchise really great at building beautiful fantastical worlds with casts and stories that are engaging and interesting and fun, but They're not great at actual mechanical design, especially in the older games. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Jan 28, 2017 |
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Jan 28, 2017 20:31
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Goofy dying was actually pretty good in Kingdom Hearts. I'll give them that. The guy has fallen off so many cliffs and hit by mooses but never died, which is not very realistic. Kingdom Hearts finally showed that goofing around is likely to get you killed.
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Jan 28, 2017 20:31
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Like sometimes maybe Goof should take poo poo seriously and pay attention.
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Jan 28, 2017 20:33
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Barudak posted:The only FF game that was tightly designed with combat in mind and had a well developed system that couldn't be outleveled was FFXIII. They'll probably never do that again. Let's hope not. We don't need any more corridor simulators. And I don't even hate XIII. I just never found it fun.
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Jan 28, 2017 20:36
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bloodychill posted:Like sometimes maybe Goof should take poo poo seriously and pay attention. Ironically Goofy is the smart one of the group and is constantly trying to keep things on track.
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Jan 28, 2017 20:36
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NikkolasKing posted:Let's hope not. We don't need any more corridor simulators. That the issue, with everything else in FFXIII being miserable they threw out the really, really good thing that made the game work which is the combat. C'est la vie.
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Jan 28, 2017 20:38
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Kingdom Hearts is garbage because you can't take people off of their homework. I should be able to just take Jack and Mulan everywhere, dammit.
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Jan 28, 2017 20:42
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Barudak posted:The only FF game that was tightly designed with combat in mind and had a well developed system that couldn't be outleveled was FFXIII. They'll probably never do that again. FF13 looks pretty good but the flaws start to show when you listen to characters talk or pay attention to anything.
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Jan 28, 2017 20:43
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Motto posted:ATB is a pretty boring but inoffensive system held up by interesting (though invariably broke as hell) customization or growth systems. ATB is more exciting then regular turn-based combat i mean JRPG combat is only so good if it doesn't have an actiony combat system
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Jan 28, 2017 20:57
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ImpAtom posted:I do have fun playing them, I can just also recognize they are tire fires of design problems. v summons in FFXV feel like desperation moves more than anything. they're different enough from magic in that there's no friendly fire to worry about and you can't augment them. they can break the damage limit natively, whereas you have to get that ability for magic, and as far as I can tell, any enemies you kill with a summon mean your buddies don't get the experience, so you have to decide if it's really worth it instead of carrying on without it
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Jan 28, 2017 21:22
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What's the last thing FF hasn't done with Summons yet? Making them armor?
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Jan 28, 2017 21:25
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Tales games have better combat systems than Final Fantasy games. 
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Jan 28, 2017 21:26
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bloodychill posted:FF13 looks pretty good but the flaws start to show when you listen to characters talk or pay attention to anything. I like Sazh though. He's the only rational, thinking character in a party full of idiots. Who also seems to be aware he's in a "meh" videogame. Makes you feel bad around the time he tries to commit suicide
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Jan 28, 2017 21:32
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ACES CURE PLANES posted:If you can put the disc in your system, you can make it through an FF game without grinding. It is very rare that it asks you to engage with its systems on a meaningful level for 90% of most games. I don't know if I'd go that far in saying that you 'don't have to engage with FF's systems', but the only times I've ever actually had to grind in Final Fantasy were for the extra content in Dawn of Souls. Final Fantasy tend to be fairly well-designed JRPGs in my book, because it's a series that lets system mastery be first and foremost in your approach. You can, easily, beat every Final Fantasy game without grinding (to the point where I kind of feel bad for someone if they have to), just as long as you've learned what the game can do. Sometimes that's a death-combo that feels like the game shouldn't have given you, sure, but more often it's just stuff like not underestimating Phantom Rush and Chainsaw in VI. All you need is to know how to make the most of what you've got. In contrast, as much as I love Shin Megami Tensei I've had to grind at some point in every single one I've played. Maybe that's because I started with I, II and V, which are easily the games with the biggest focus on gameplay and mechanics over story, so that's what I learned to value. But I've always loved JRPGs for being a genre where knowledge and preparation is 95% of what you need to win, and most of Final Fantasy is fantastic for that. That's honestly probably why I hated Bhunivelze in XIII-3; I knew exactly what the game was asking of me, I just couldn't do it.
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Jan 28, 2017 21:33
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mandatory lesbian posted:ATB is more exciting then regular turn-based combat I don't feel much of a difference tbh, it just makes you wait for turns to roll up in realtime.
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Jan 28, 2017 21:33
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Tae posted:What's the last thing FF hasn't done with Summons yet? Making them armor? Well FFVIII had a mechanic that allowed you to tank strong hits by performing a summon, because they had separate HP bar while casting.
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Jan 28, 2017 21:34
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WaltherFeng posted:Well FFVIII had a mechanic that allowed you to tank strong hits by performing a summon, because they had separate HP bar while casting. I mean literal armor, like ronin warriors style
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Jan 28, 2017 21:36
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WaltherFeng posted:Well FFVIII had a mechanic that allowed you to tank strong hits by performing a summon, because they had separate HP bar while casting. on the other hand, you can also easily beat that game without summoning anything
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Jan 28, 2017 21:38
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Evil Fluffy posted:Tales games have better combat systems than Final Fantasy games. yeah Motto posted:I don't feel much of a difference tbh, it just makes you wait for turns to roll up in realtime. yeah but focusing on when you can act makes me feel more engaged, personally like it's not heart-stopping thrills or anything but it's more exciting to me
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Jan 28, 2017 21:40
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I probably liked SMT Nocturne's battle system more than any FF games' but I like most FF battle systems more than Persona 3's. Just for comparison with my latest JRPG playthroughs. And Strange Journey was....unsure about that. Better than most FFs I've played probably. They are also all better than Persona 2's.
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Jan 28, 2017 21:55
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13 is the only FF game with good combat. X-2 was okay I guess
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Jan 28, 2017 22:06
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bloodychill posted:Nah, it's actually fun and ATB is pretty cool, as are the job systems and skill system such as materia, ff9 item stuff, the ffx sphere grid, the esper system. All fun and good stuff. I'm sorry you don't have fun playing Final Fantasy games, ImpAtom No you see impatoms opinion is objectively right and you're a stupid dumbapple because morallyobjected posted:summons in FFXV feel like desperation moves more than anything. they're different enough from magic in that there's no friendly fire to worry about and you can't augment them. they can break the damage limit natively, whereas you have to get that ability for magic, and as far as I can tell, any enemies you kill with a summon mean your buddies don't get the experience, so you have to decide if it's really worth it instead of carrying on without it Yeah they're a sort of combo of limit break and spell, although armiger has that function to some extent as well
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Jan 28, 2017 22:06
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Kalenn Istarion posted:No you see impatoms opinion is objectively right and you're a stupid dumbapple because You really need to stop being a whiny pissbaby, thanks. Get over your weird thing with me.
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Jan 28, 2017 22:07
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Kalenn Istarion posted:No you see impatoms opinion is objectively right and you're a stupid dumbapple because lol
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Jan 28, 2017 22:10
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I honestly never felt X-2's gameplay was anything special. Maybe it's improved in the HD version but I greatly preferred X's combat. I haven't played either game in nearly a decade though.
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Jan 28, 2017 22:12
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NikkolasKing posted:I honestly never felt x-2's gameplay was anything special. Maybe it's improved in the HD version but I greatly preferred X's combat. X-2 has the thing where if you're looking for variety and flexibility it's actually extremely good but it's also easy enough that you're rarely pushed to use that variety and flexibility so it depends on how much you enjoy coming up with builds vs how much you need them,.
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Jan 28, 2017 22:13
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