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i think the difference here is that i would maybe vaguely consider using the sword over some poo poo like the lemon which is an immediate pass
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Jan 29, 2017 05:51
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It's hard to say that Damocles is worse than any item in the actual game when Cursed Eye exists.
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Jan 29, 2017 05:55
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Irony Be My Shield posted:So instead of killing you immediately you have to play on, perhaps for a long while, on a run that has a random chance to be doomed? Basically, either play like you're the Lost or play like the electric chair scene from that one Futurama episode with Bender being Santa Claus.
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Jan 29, 2017 05:58
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Irony Be My Shield posted:It doesn't change the fact that the item ranges from insanely horrible. . . to ridiculously good. . . based entirely on chance with zero player input at all. For all its faults the main game doesn't have anything that stupid in it. Are we talking about the same Binding of Isaac? There's absolutely things that are shite or amazing depending on random chance. There's a ton of items that are only good with other items that you have a random chance of getting. There's the reroll rooms where you could get a game-breaking or game-ruining build depending on chance with no player input. There's the literal dice items, which could give you epic badass items or wet farts. Irony Be My Shield posted:"Risk" in the context of BoI always has and should continue to mean "harder challenges for the player to overcome". You could easily make the argument that it SHOULD. I find a ton of value in those games, and while I disagree, it's a reasonable feeling to want all game to mean a certain kind of extremely fair challenge. But The Binding of Isaac is not and never has been one of those games. I know BoI exists in a strange liminal state that has equal parts clever fair challenge and random mysteries, but it's pretty wrong to say that BoI has nothing that's situational based on chance. Like you're classifying all the unfair, chance-based things in the game that I KNOW you are aware of as aberrations that don't count.
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Jan 29, 2017 06:02
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Carados posted:They're both good (and the magic skin) with the lost. Absurd and broken even. Magic Skin still kills the Lost after the 12th use, right?
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Jan 29, 2017 06:34
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Holy poo poo that sword is some of the worst loving game design I've ever heard.
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Jan 29, 2017 08:33
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I think it's fine because it's in a similar space as Suicide King to me. Unfortunately, I only ever get the card when I don't have multiple lives, but it's not like multiple lives aren't uncommon. Even beyond Nine Lives there's a lot of ways to have multiple lives, which seems the easiest way to take advantage of Damocles. You don't need to deal with it killing you unless you want to and apparently you can block it with invincibility if you have good timing? That seems pretty fair to me. Hell it seems like a great item for Lazarus to bump into on his first item room since unless you end up dying super late into the run with no way to make up hearts (And it's still a mod of Rebirth so there's spirit hearts everywhere) it's gonna be real good for him either way.
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Jan 29, 2017 08:42
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I really don't get how it's such bad design. It's not automatic, you have to choose to take/activate it and using it basically makes you into the lost with guppy's collar in exchange for free items that generate from the pool of the room you're in. It's a lot of risk for a pretty huge reward, but you can always just...not take it. Not getting hit is kind of a huge part of the game anyway, that item just turns it up to 11. Irony Be My Shield posted:Under that logic any item you could possibly program is fine because you can choose not to take it. It doesn't change the fact that the item ranges from insanely horrible (if you roll death the first time you're hit) to ridiculously good (if you don't for a bunch of hits) based entirely on chance with zero player input at all. For all its faults the main game doesn't have anything that stupid in it. But there is player input. The player input is not getting hit in the first place. Do you have the same complaints about guppy's collar? It's insanely horrible if it doesn't revive you or you can't find health ups or soul/black hearts, but ridiculously good if you get lucky and it revives you half a dozen times in a row. It's still just as RNG with "zero player input" beyond not getting hit.
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Jan 29, 2017 09:15
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i'm honestly kind of amazed that people are apparently so appalled at such an item in binding of isaac of all games
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Jan 29, 2017 09:25
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that ivy guy posted:Magic Skin still kills the Lost after the 12th use, right? Nope, it's infinite use in my experience, way past the normal cap of 12 items. What does happen though is that the Lost can't consume soul hearts and just bumps into them after enough uses (because the invisible healthbar is filled with -maxhp hearts I'm guessing). Of course soul hearts don't do anything for the Lost so it doesn't matter at all. All in all, no adverse effects using the Magic Skin with the Lost. Also have to echo that Damocles is an amazing item with the Lost, the Mantle or any form of extra lives. Connoisseur fucked around with this message at 11:30 on Jan 29, 2017 |
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Jan 29, 2017 11:28
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I don't see a problem with the sword. If you don't get hit you get really good rewards and if you do get hit it's not a guaranteed death plus there are plenty of ways to get extra lives in the game. It's not even something that curse of the blind can gently caress you with since it's a spacebar item. A bad item that can get really strong with the right setup and synergies is very BoI to me.
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Jan 29, 2017 11:41
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Johnny Joestar posted:i'm honestly kind of amazed that people are apparently so appalled at such an item in binding of isaac of all games I think people are mainly suprised that, after weeks of some people jizzing all over themselves every time Antibirth is mentioned, and then any time AB+ is mentioned immediately bringing up how much better Antibirth is, turns out someones favourite item from Antibirth is every bit as hacky and badly designed as anything in official Isaac.
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Jan 29, 2017 11:45
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Is the friendly ball item now bugged outside the challenge? I got it in the Ultra Hard challenge (blindly ofcourse) and in two normal runs and it never once spawned anything.
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Jan 29, 2017 11:52
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i did it, true platinum god. feels pretty empty tbh
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Jan 29, 2017 11:53
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FZeroRacer posted:It's hard to say that Damocles is worse than any item in the actual game when Cursed Eye exists. Teleporting you out of the current room if you are hit while in the process of charging your tears: unacceptable Wrist Watch posted:But there is player input. The player input is not getting hit in the first place. That's the big thing really, there are some random and poorly designed items in the game but they don't actually murder you from any health total if you fail a roll. That's what makes this item worse. Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 13:44 on Jan 29, 2017 |
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Jan 29, 2017 13:38
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AbstractNapper posted:Is the friendly ball item now bugged outside the challenge? I got it in the Ultra Hard challenge (blindly ofcourse) and in two normal runs and it never once spawned anything. It works differently outside of the challenge. You have to use a charge to toss it and hit an enemy. Then you have to wait for the charge to refill and toss it again to spawn the captured charmed enemy. If you miss the initial throw, you have to wait until it refills again. It's an extremely bad item outside of the challenge, and only useful if you see one of the white champion enemies, because they cannot die.
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Jan 29, 2017 13:53
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I'm sorry some of y'all are apparently super salty about people really liking Antibirth and about AB+ being kind of a garbage fire when first released but Damocles is an amazing and hilarious item that can lead to all sorts of fun and ridiculous bullshit and I feel sad for anyone who will not allow its joy in their lives.
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Jan 29, 2017 14:39
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Spergatory posted:I'm sorry some of y'all are apparently super salty about people really liking Antibirth and about AB+ being kind of a garbage fire when first released but Damocles is an amazing and hilarious item that can lead to all sorts of fun and ridiculous bullshit and I feel sad for anyone who will not allow its joy in their lives. A bad item is a bad item, an item that has a 50% chance of killing a run straight-up is a bad item regardless of anything else. You can at least control Suicide King.
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Jan 29, 2017 15:02
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Spergatory posted:Also, I feel like some of you might be fundamentally misunderstanding how it actually works; the sword doesn't roll dice to decide whether or not to kill you on hit; once you've been hit with it out, the sword can fall at any time. From that moment on, the dice are rolling constantly, and every subsequent hit expands the number of rolls that will end your life. Using it requires you to fundamentally change the way you play the game so you avoid damage at all costs, and if/when that fails and you get hit, it can result in some truly amazing panic spirals because now you're playing with the knowledge that your life could end at any moment. Do you blitz the game and try to finish it as fast as possible? Do you take more damage entering curse rooms to try and get nine lives? Do you desperately bomb every skull looking for the Chariot and then sit with sweaty, shaking fingers on the use button, waiting for the sword to fall? If the Chariot works then there's no need to hunt for it. Just stand by a fire and when the sword falls, quickly bump and survive using i-frames.
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Jan 29, 2017 15:04
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Dias posted:A bad item is a bad item, an item that has a 50% chance of killing a run straight-up is a bad item regardless of anything else. You can at least control Suicide King. It's not a straight-up 50% chance. It's a random chance which is only active if other conditions are met, and those conditions are entirely under the player's control. If you're salty about it being a chance thing, then you're welcome to quit the run or go stand on spikes the moment you get hit. Damocles has a weird design that doesn't really fit into Isaac (at least, I can't think of anything else that when triggered effectively fits a time bomb to your run) but I think that's its worst crime. And clearly plenty of people like using it.
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Jan 29, 2017 15:20
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Prop Wash posted:It's not a straight-up 50% chance. It's a random chance which is only active if other conditions are met, and those conditions are entirely under the player's control. If you're salty about it being a chance thing, then you're welcome to quit the run or go stand on spikes the moment you get hit. Okay, that's fair. It's still a bad design and an item you REALLY shouldn't pick unless you're a god, though, and I don't think it's a crime pointing that out, or some sort of weird retroactive defense of Afterbirth as that dude is implying. 
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Jan 29, 2017 15:23
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Dias posted:A bad item is a bad item, an item that has a 50% chance of killing a run straight-up is a bad item regardless of anything else. You can at least control Suicide King. ...  Spergatory posted:It's a spacebar item, so it's your choice to deploy it, and the chance of it killing you is zero... as long as you don't get hit. Spergatory posted:The game literally cannot force it on you. Even if you pick it up during Curse of the Blind, you have to choose to deploy it. It's entirely up to the player whether or not it's worth the risk. Spergatory posted:And all of this is acceptable because, again, the game cannot force it on you. It's not like Isaac's Heart or Soymilk where you can pick it up accidentally or get rerolled into it. You have to choose to use it. Christ almighty. Are you even reading? Also, thanks for bringing up the fact that the base game has an item that's literally "kill yourself for stuff."
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Jan 29, 2017 15:23
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Damocles sounds BoI as hell, I don't get any of the complaints. You can't even accidentally gently caress up a run by taking it, and it sounds like you can cheese it really hard if you have invincibility and good timing or extra lives.
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Jan 29, 2017 15:26
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Spergatory posted:... I mean, as soon as you use it you're enforcing a stupid RNG insta-kill on yourself, and it IS worse than Cursed Eye. Are you willing to die on that hill?
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Jan 29, 2017 15:29
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I can't believe people are defending an item that randomly deletes your save. That's just bad design.
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Jan 29, 2017 15:43
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Dias posted:I mean, as soon as you use it you're enforcing a stupid RNG insta-kill on yourself, and it IS worse than Cursed Eye. Are you willing to die on that hill? 
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Jan 29, 2017 15:45
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The real lesson here is that good Isaac design means many different things to many different people, and that's probably why it's so difficult to make expansions that please everyone, regardless of who you are. Also that the user named "Spergatory" will absolutely live up to their name.
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Jan 29, 2017 15:55
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I'm okay with the item existing, but I also feel it's a very Edmund item to give you an okay reward (an extra item really isn't that good) for a literal chance at insta-death if you slightly gently caress up. It's like a Kamikaze, you'll pick it up if you have synergies but otherwise ignore.
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Jan 29, 2017 16:05
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I imagine the reason people are defending it is because the item's chance to actually kill you is very low, so they just got to enjoy a very overpowered run with no drawback. I can't imagine someone who actually got killed by it due to taking a single point of damage 10 minutes earlier would continue to like the item. I'd point out that Suicide King is not actually an item. Also it's clear when you should and should not use it. It seems to me that you should always use Sword of Damocles and just accept the small amount of the time it screws you over in the worst possible way, and that's way worse.
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Jan 29, 2017 16:23
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I have a D20 and Sackhead and I'm not sure when I should actually leave this room of exponentially-growing piles of open chests and pickups I can't hold. 
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Jan 29, 2017 16:35
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If they called it a suicide item with an RNG chance to survive instead of the other way around we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.. 
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Jan 29, 2017 16:39
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I will say that it's pretty interesting that some people oppose Damocles because they think it's too bad to use, while others oppose it because they think it's too good not to use.
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Jan 29, 2017 16:45
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I imagine the reason people are defending it is because the item's chance to actually kill you is very low, so they just got to enjoy a very overpowered run with no drawback. I can't imagine someone who actually got killed by it due to taking a single point of damage 10 minutes earlier would continue to like the item. Like 99% of the time you die in issac it's because you took a 1 point of damage 10 minutes ago and couldn't find any way to mitigate that before it spells your doom.
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Jan 29, 2017 17:02
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So Greed's Gullet works with the Keeper and can give you up to six HP if you have 99 coins. How much you want to bet that was a mistake and it's going to get patched out?
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Jan 29, 2017 17:13
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Skunkrocker posted:So Greed's Gullet works with the Keeper and can give you up to six HP if you have 99 coins. That seems like it might be intentional. Furthermore, it seems like an item he should start with.
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Jan 29, 2017 17:43
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that ivy guy posted:Magic Skin still kills the Lost after the 12th use, right? Nope!
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Jan 29, 2017 18:09
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Psychedelicatessen posted:It works differently outside of the challenge. You have to use a charge to toss it and hit an enemy. Then you have to wait for the charge to refill and toss it again to spawn the captured charmed enemy. If you miss the initial throw, you have to wait until it refills again. Ah, that makes sense then. Yes, I did know it was bad; it's bad and bugged in the challenge, but I am pretty sure I always got it in curse of blind... in really poor item runs. About the Greedier mode... it seems that the item pool for the first room is intentionally limited (I think the "strongest" item you can get is Magic Mushroom). I keep seeing the same stuff over and over. All of the 3 Gredier runs that I've managed to win, I had broken the game severely. Maggie's run was the best, because I found a D100 at the store behind a key lock, and it rerolled her to Libra with Soy Milk (and a bunch of other stuff), which meant insane damage tears with great fire rate and she was melting everything that was in front of her.
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Jan 29, 2017 20:09
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Suicide King and Plan C are better because you have no chance of surviving them and really clear upsides, meaning that if and when you use them you know exactly what will happen. They are extremely niche but really satisfying if you manage to use them properly. The sword, on the other hand, has really vague up -and downsides. Getting double items can be amazing or you can end up having twice as much range and shot speed than you otherwise would. The downside is the main problem though. A constant rng check for an instant kill is beyond frustrating and I see no point in continuing a run if you ever get hit.
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Jan 29, 2017 20:15
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watho posted:Suicide King and Plan C are better because you have no chance of surviving them and really clear upsides, meaning that if and when you use them you know exactly what will happen. They are extremely niche but really satisfying if you manage to use them properly. the sword despawns when it kills you, so it's strictly better than those other things if you have multiple lives because what it becomes is sort of a time-limited run to grab as many items as you can unless you basically never get hit in which case it's going to take a lot longer to actually kill you like, from the idea here of someone having an extra life or more before using any of these things i'm not sure how damocles is even remotely bad
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Jan 29, 2017 20:23
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I imagine the reason people are defending it is because the item's chance to actually kill you is very low, so they just got to enjoy a very overpowered run with no drawback. I can't imagine someone who actually got killed by it due to taking a single point of damage 10 minutes earlier would continue to like the item. I only watched the first part of the video last night and it turns out only watching the first minute and making assumptions about the rest of the video at 3 am didn't get me the best grasp of how the item worked! Who would've thought. My sleep deprived brain was convinced it dropped immediately after getting hit for some reason, my bad. Now that I'm not talking out of my rear end like a complete loving moron though, the comparison to suicide king is even more apt. Since it will kill you eventually no matter what, it's just a slow acting suicide king that encourages you to get through floors as fast as possible to beat the invisible timer and take advantage of all the bonus items before it falls. Just like suicide king, there's literally no reason to take it unless you have a revive because all the bonus items in the world won't help you if you're dead. Basically: Orange Harrison posted:If they called it a suicide item with an RNG chance to survive instead of the other way around we probably wouldn't be having this conversation..
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Jan 29, 2017 20:34
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