Crawl .20: Home of the Frog Dog

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Worthleast: Nov 25, 2012; Possibly the only speedboat jumps I've planned

Lost a great FoFi on Vaults 5 because I forgot I had lost my rF mutation, then proceeded to immolate the ambush.

# ? Jan 30, 2017 17:29

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# ? May 14, 2024 23:06

Sage Grimm: Feb 18, 2013; Let's go explorin' little dude!

FoFi..Foom!

It's only half damage from fire for the first tick of rF. I'm surprised you didn't drink resistance to bring down potential damage further regardless of your mutation existing, since there is the potential for a lot of overlapping explosions in the same turn if you aren't careful.

# ? Jan 30, 2017 17:57

Worthleast: Nov 25, 2012; Possibly the only speedboat jumps I've planned

Sage Grimm posted:

FoFi..Foom!

It's only half damage from fire for the first tick of rF. I'm surprised you didn't drink resistance to bring down potential damage further regardless of your mutation existing, since there is the potential for a lot of overlapping explosions in the same turn if you aren't careful.

Tab addiction and a +9 Vampiric Lajatang.

# ? Jan 30, 2017 18:20

Bogart: Apr 12, 2010; by VideoGames

Oh man, .20. What are the big changes?

# ? Jan 30, 2017 18:57

LordSloth: Mar 7, 2008; Disgruntled (IT) Employee

Well, the biggest change is the stable version is still only 0.19.3. The thread title is a long and simple tale that I don't especially want to retell.

The biggest change in 0.20 is the outright removal of rods. Other notable changes: Frogmen, new starter poison spell (lvl2) and removal of poisonous cloud, sandblast reworked, ogres being rebalanced, [redacted] race removed, trees will appear angry when appropriate, and you can no longer rest while on fire. I'm sure there are other changes that escape me atm.

# ? Jan 30, 2017 20:09

PleasingFungus: Oct 10, 2012; idiot asshole bitch who should fuck off

some rods were replaced with wands/etc!

# ? Jan 30, 2017 21:18

Panic! at Nabisco: Jun 6, 2007; it seemed like a good idea at the time

How was sandblast reworked? I love me some GrEE.

And that explains why I found a whole fuckton of evocables in my last trunk game but no rods.

# ? Jan 30, 2017 21:36

Internet Kraken: Apr 24, 2010; slightly amused

Why is poisonous cloud being removed? Did poison magics late game potential really need to get even worse? Combined with ignite poison it was one of the few spells that could stay useful.

# ? Jan 30, 2017 21:37

Fitzy Fitz: May 14, 2005

I was told that Ignite Poison was considered overpowered.

# ? Jan 30, 2017 21:41

vOv: Feb 8, 2014

Internet Kraken posted:

They all seem fine to me other then apocalypse, which seems like an ability more suited for Qazlal. It could be renamed something like Revelation to be more thematically appropriate, since I imagine you're shattering your foes' minds with some unbearable truth.

quote:

An apocalypse (Ancient Greek: ἀποκάλυψις apok�lypsis, from ἀπό and καλύπτω, literally meaning "an uncovering") is a disclosure of knowledge or revelation. In religious contexts it is usually a disclosure of something hidden, �a vision of heavenly secrets that can make sense of earthly realities".

Though I do agree Revelation would fit better.

# ? Jan 30, 2017 21:41

Zore: Sep 21, 2010; willfully illiterate, aggressively miserable sourpuss whose sole raison d�etre is to put other people down for liking the wrong things

Panic! at Nabisco posted:

How was sandblast reworked? I love me some GrEE.

And that explains why I found a whole fuckton of evocables in my last trunk game but no rods.

It uses stones from your inventory and cannot be cast without them

# ? Jan 30, 2017 21:42

Internet Kraken: Apr 24, 2010; slightly amused

vOv posted:

Though I do agree Revelation would fit better.

Huh. Learn something new everyday.

Fitzy Fitz posted:

I was told that Ignite Poison was considered overpowered.

I mean, the main combo with ignite poison is oklob's radiance. That poisons everything in sight so then you can just spam ignite poison to make their blood boil. Its really strong all the way up until extended where basically everything is poison immune. Poisonous cloud could still be used there with ignite poison to create fire clouds, though that isn't amazing compared to what other magic schools can do by that point.

# ? Jan 30, 2017 21:47

redneck nazgul: Apr 25, 2013

Fitzy Fitz posted:

I was told that Ignite Poison was considered overpowered.

It was back when it automatically hit poisonous things.

# ? Jan 30, 2017 21:49

PleasingFungus: Oct 10, 2012; idiot asshole bitch who should fuck off

Fitzy Fitz posted:

I was told that Ignite Poison was considered overpowered.

By whom? Certainly not in combination with poisonous cloud - that was a joke combo!

'like freezing cloud, except that it takes two turns and twice as much mana and more spell schools to cast'

Internet Kraken posted:

Why is poisonous cloud being removed? Did poison magics late game potential really need to get even worse? Combined with ignite poison it was one of the few spells that could stay useful.

reasoning was that it was too close to the new poison spell, i think? "it feels redundant" was the exact wording

# ? Jan 30, 2017 22:44

LordSloth: Mar 7, 2008; Disgruntled (IT) Employee

I'm not all that upset about the removal of poisonous cloud for a variety of small reasons.

Poisonous Vapours is now in the starting book. It's a level two air/poison spell with smite targeting. Still won't help with zombies, but it's a lovely spell for handling the more nimble monsters like adders even at low levels where the cloud will instantly dissipate.
I was much more a fan of Poisonous Clouds back when clouds existed outside LOS. Nowadays, I'd rather have Olgreb's Toxic Radiance + Freezing Clouds or OTR+Ignite Poison (though maybe IP changed since my last VM).
With the absence of Cure Poison, I have to be more careful about the placement of the clouds, whereas OTR no longer poisons the caster.
Poison DoT kinda sucks overall once HP gets high enough.
It used three schools of magic.

If Venom Bolt was a bit more useful, I'd be okay with letting the RNG decide whether Poison Arrow spawned or not. It is an exceptionally small school, however, and really needs some more variety. Perhaps something with a Necromancy or Summoning Element? Bloat Corpse Zombie, Summon Caustic Shrike if you were willing to handwave the meaning of 'poison'... or some better idea.

# ? Jan 30, 2017 22:51

rchandra: Apr 30, 2013

LordSloth posted:

It is an exceptionally small school, however, and really needs some more variety. Perhaps something with a Necromancy or Summoning Element? Bloat Corpse Zombie

Maybe Corpse Rot should be Necro/Poison?

# ? Jan 30, 2017 23:46

PotatoManJack: Nov 9, 2009

Decisions Decisions...

I'm up to 9 runes on my current HECj (Firestorm caster and soon to be adding tornado). I have 3 standard runes, 4 Pan Runes, Slime, and Cocytus. I'll be getting Abyss and the last Pan rune to take me to 11, but after that I'm a bit unsure of what to do. Previously, my best run was a 5 rune win, and so I'm already way past that. I have no access to necromutation to protect me in Tomb (plus that branch scares the crap out of me) and am worried about the other 3 Hell Branches (especially Gehenna).

Should I just take the 11 runes and win or try and go for the 15 runes?

E: Char Info

PotatoManJack fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Jan 31, 2017

# ? Jan 31, 2017 00:01

lizardhunt: Feb 7, 2010; agreed ->

Tomb's not that bad with RN+++, Firestorm and some patience. Maybe you need some more MR+ though.

# ? Jan 31, 2017 00:17

PotatoManJack: Nov 9, 2009

jerkstoresup posted:

Tomb's not that bad with RN+++, Firestorm and some patience. Maybe you need some more MR+ though.

I do have a couple of other sources of MR+ it's just that it means dropping some of my other resists, but I probably can afford to do that as rF and rC aren't as important for Tomb.

# ? Jan 31, 2017 00:27

Darox: Nov 10, 2012

If you have firestorm and nearly tornado you should also have chain lightning, and chain lightning wrecks Gehenna.

With that in mind I would suggest Gehenna -> Tomb/Tar -> Dis for your ordering.
If for some reason you don't have CL, I would go Tomb -> Tar -> Gehenna -> Dis

# ? Jan 31, 2017 03:08

PotatoManJack: Nov 9, 2009

Darox posted:

If you have firestorm and nearly tornado you should also have chain lightning, and chain lightning wrecks Gehenna.

With that in mind I would suggest Gehenna -> Tomb/Tar -> Dis for your ordering.
If for some reason you don't have CL, I would go Tomb -> Tar -> Gehenna -> Dis

Excellent - I do have access to CL so will get that up and running in the Abyss for practice and will take it to Gehenna

# ? Jan 31, 2017 04:10

Darox: Nov 10, 2012

The most important thing to keep in mind about chain lightning is that it gets pretty severely disrupted by lightning rods, enemies that are either immune to electric damage or summons who don't matter. A pack of 6 draconians at mid-distance are very easy to fry with chain lightning, but if you also have a single electric golem sitting in melee range it will absorb almost all of the bounces and cripple your damage.

This isn't really an issue in Gehenna, just watch out for the tentacles from hell effects. Hell Sentinels are immune though which makes Dis dangerous. It also makes CL worse in Tomb, if a greater mummy summons a pack of scorpions they will absorb a lot of damage, but firestorm wrecks mummies.

# ? Jan 31, 2017 04:24

Araganzar: May 24, 2003; Needs more cowbell!; Fun Shoe

PotatoManJack posted:

I'm up to 9 runes on my current HECj (Firestorm caster and soon to be adding tornado). I have 3 standard runes, 4 Pan Runes, Slime, and Cocytus. I'll be getting Abyss and the last Pan rune to take me to 11, but after that I'm a bit unsure of what to do. Previously, my best run was a 5 rune win, and so I'm already way past that. I have no access to necromutation to protect me in Tomb (plus that branch scares the crap out of me) and am worried about the other 3 Hell Branches (especially Gehenna).

Turn off Translocations (20 skill??!?!!). If there is a staff of energy get it and use it, get Evocations to 15 ASAP. Running out of MP is your only issue now.

Otherwise turn on Earth until at least 12. Then crank Fighting to 20 and Dodging to 16-18 or until you have 29 EV.

Switch to a Robe of the Archmagi if one is available, if not, maybe FDA or PDA when spell success permits.

You have a few randart amulets and shields that might be better than your current ones.

Lose Battlesphere and IMB. Get Chain Lighting and Deflect Missile. If you need levels, lose Force Lance.

Lose Fireball, Delayed Blast Fireball, and Freezing Cloud. None of these are worth the spell levels when you have Tornado and Firestorm. Memorize Controlled Blink and Spellforged Servitor if available.

If you can't do all of this beg PF to put book amnesia back so late game casters don't get screwed by bad amnesia luck. If you can, servitor is now just casting OOD, LCS, and Bolt of Cold. Get summoning to 10 or so for spellpower. You could probably lose OOD, since you have 20 tloc you might as well get malign gateway.

Bust out the servitor if you get low mana. Don't firestorm offscreen in Tomb and use Tornado for scarabs and you'll be fine.

CBlink and Staff of Energy are probably your most important upgrades in terms of survival. As noted, Chain Lightning is very good in certain branches and terrific overall.

# ? Jan 31, 2017 04:29

Araganzar: May 24, 2003; Needs more cowbell!; Fun Shoe

Also Poisonous Cloud was crappy for the spell levels and will not be missed. Toxic Radiance + Ignite Poison is disgustingly powerful with a staff of poison or fire as OTR continues to poison through multiple castings of IP. Like Confusing Touch, if IP were more readily available it would probably be removed.

Poison Arrow is probably the best spell of all of them though. The degree to which it owns Vaults and Depths is hard to overstate.

# ? Jan 31, 2017 04:41

Panic! at Nabisco: Jun 6, 2007; it seemed like a good idea at the time

I had a real good HECj going until the game decided putting Aizul, Louise, and Nikola all on the same floor of swamp was a cool and good thing to do :mad:

# ? Jan 31, 2017 04:43

Internet Kraken: Apr 24, 2010; slightly amused

Well it could of also put Mara on that floor.

# ? Jan 31, 2017 05:17

PotatoManJack: Nov 9, 2009

Araganzar posted:

Turn off Translocations...

Thanks for the feedback. This is all great. I think I will now hit tomb and take it very slow. I've got MR++++. and so should be in reasonable shape.

e: I do have CL from Vehumet

# ? Jan 31, 2017 05:43

Araganzar: May 24, 2003; Needs more cowbell!; Fun Shoe

PotatoManJack posted:

Thanks for the feedback. This is all great. I think I will now hit tomb and take it very slow. I've got MR++++. and so should be in reasonable shape.

e: I do have CL from Vehumet

I woke back up specifically because I FORGOT DISJUNCTION. It's an amazing spell for a caster, turns the orb run into a joke too. If you have the opportunity to acquire it please do so!

# ? Jan 31, 2017 06:03

Cerepol: Dec 2, 2011

Is there a way to check how much penance you have left?

Also can TSO's blessing raise a weapon above +9 or is it still capped?
Actually while I'm here is there a big difference between a Eudemon Blade and a Double sword?

# ? Jan 31, 2017 07:08

PotatoManJack: Nov 9, 2009

Thanks again for all the help - Just finished Tomb! It really wasn't nearly as scary as I thought

3 Runes to go now... This is by far my best run ever, and even if I die, I'll feel pretty good about it.

Araganzar posted:

I woke back up specifically because I FORGOT DISJUNCTION. It's an amazing spell for a caster, turns the orb run into a joke too. If you have the opportunity to acquire it please do so!

I'll see if it's in any of my books, but I don't remember it showing up.

# ? Jan 31, 2017 07:14

LazyMaybe: Aug 18, 2013; oouagh

Cerepol posted:

Also can TSO's blessing raise a weapon above +9 or is it still capped?
Actually while I'm here is there a big difference between a Eudemon Blade and a Double sword?

It is still capped.

Eudemon blade should be a bit weaker but also faster, probably slightly better without taking brands into account.

# ? Jan 31, 2017 07:51

Internet Kraken: Apr 24, 2010; slightly amused

Glad I finally got a good spriggan going. Dunno why I thought playing them again would be fun.

*slime creature does 55 damage and kills me*

...you know, especially when that poo poo happens. I don't have the patience to play a low HP race with no AC and GDR.

# ? Jan 31, 2017 08:35

Panic! at Nabisco: Jun 6, 2007; it seemed like a good idea at the time

Probably 50% of my wins prior to 0.15 were spriggans. The game is just so easy when you're faster than everything!

I should try them again now that Gozag is a thing.

# ? Jan 31, 2017 09:10

kaschei: Oct 25, 2005

Cerepol posted:

Is there a way to check how much penance you have left?

Also can TSO's blessing raise a weapon above +9 or is it still capped?
Actually while I'm here is there a big difference between a Eudemon Blade and a Double sword?

1. Idk
2. Capped
3. Min delay is lower for eudemon. Small races can use eudemon 1-handed. Not a big difference in DPS.

# ? Jan 31, 2017 14:33

PleasingFungus: Oct 10, 2012; idiot asshole bitch who should fuck off

Cerepol posted:

Is there a way to check how much penance you have left?

Secret tech! Hit ?/G (for god lookup) and select the god you want to examine. "Favour" (below the main description, above 'granted powers') will describe a message that correlates to remaining wrath:

code:

        (which_god_penance >= 50)   ? "%s's wrath is upon you!" :
        (which_god_penance >= 20)   ? "%s is annoyed with you." :
        (which_god_penance >=  5)   ? "%s well remembers your sins." :
        (which_god_penance >   0)   ? "%s is almost ready to forgive your sins." :

God wraths start at either 50, 30, or 25 penance. Trog is 50, Okawaru is 25.

EDIT: just changed this in trunk. The wrath messages above now correlate to % of wrath remaining (> 75%, 50%, 25%, 0% respectively). You can see an approximation of overall wrath duration in the wrath description screen.

PleasingFungus fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Jan 31, 2017

# ? Jan 31, 2017 19:17

girl dick energy: Sep 30, 2009; You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?

Rods being gone means I can no longer play Troll With A Shotgun. :saddowns:

# ? Jan 31, 2017 19:35

Haifisch: Nov 13, 2010; Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!; Taco Defender

PMush Perfect posted:

Rods being gone means I can no longer play Troll With A Shotgun.

You can, you just need to find the wand of scattershot. And enough recharge scrolls to keep it running. (Not particularly hard now that there's no good use for them other than fueling clouds/scattershot wands)

# ? Jan 31, 2017 19:39

Kaedric: Sep 5, 2000

Panic! at Nabisco posted:

Probably 50% of my wins prior to 0.15 were spriggans. The game is just so easy when you're faster than everything!

I should try them again now that Gozag is a thing.

Help me understand. When I first started crawl Spriggan was my favorite race (this is years ago) and I always want to make them work, but I always get obliterated by a smite or something else because I have 3 hp.

# ? Jan 31, 2017 20:01

Panic! at Nabisco: Jun 6, 2007; it seemed like a good idea at the time

Kaedric posted:

Help me understand. When I first started crawl Spriggan was my favorite race (this is years ago) and I always want to make them work, but I always get obliterated by a smite or something else because I have 3 hp.

The key is that your movement speed is faster than everyone else's (except for, like, half of spider) so you have the amazing power of kiting on your side. Be very, very careful around anything that can smite target you. Honestly if you're still in the sub-10 hp part of the game I'd just not engage with orc priests at all unless you want to try the incredibly fun strategy of cast Sting, duck out of sight, repeat.

Basically, you can't just tab through stuff or you'll die, but your mobility is insanely good. Make use of LoS.

# ? Jan 31, 2017 20:28

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# ? May 14, 2024 23:06

Araganzar: May 24, 2003; Needs more cowbell!; Fun Shoe

Kaedric posted:

Help me understand. When I first started crawl Spriggan was my favorite race (this is years ago) and I always want to make them work, but I always get obliterated by a smite or something else because I have 3 hp.

You can run away from things. Turns out this is really strong.

Case in point, Internet Kraken's game where he attacked an enormous slime creature (160-320hp, 88 damage) with 5 AC and 41 hits. Any hit had a better than 50% chance of killing him instantly. He was begging for the game to kill him when he could have just moved left.

Also, with spriggan or felid I recommend setting your auto-fight to stop at 80 or 90% health. Kraken wouldn't have died with this - he took a hit down to 41 points the turn before he died, which means he probably was set to the default 50%.

code:

The enormous slime creature hits you!
[AUTOFIGHT = 60 WOULD HAVE STOPPED THE FIGHT RIGHT HERE]
You slash the enormous slime creature!
The enormous slime creature is moderately wounded.
The enormous slime creature hits you!!!
Ouch! That really hurt!
You die...

autofight=50 is tantamount to suicide with a spriggan.

# ? Jan 31, 2017 20:36

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