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bman in 2288 posted:We're gonna be stuck with Ange and Memory-Maria for a while, aren't we? Really feeling the bad pacing problems in this chapter, now they even take place in the Shadow Realm.
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Jan 31, 2017 19:28
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idonotlikepeas posted:The witch side would have you believe that even after her death, Maria continues to exist in some way. Or will, as long as Battler gives up and accepts magic so everyone can go to the Golden Land. Of course the witch will say "actually death doesn't matter, everyone who was brutally slaughtered actually went to a golden paradise!" She wants us to accept that she's real, and a world that negates all the awful realities of this life is a powerful incentive to say yes. But we know the witch lies, even if we haven't entirely denied her existence as a lie. Lycaeon posted:As much as it pains me I have to agree here. The scene meshes cleanly with all other evidence pointing at Maria knowing and learning from the perpetrator of the massacres. And if Shannon/Sayo is Beatrice (My guess for the culprit at the moment), it would imply she became close friends with Maria and tried to help her through her suffering by teaching her magic, only to see through a plan that kills her in the end (And George). I thought the theory was a slam dunk because of the Eva parroting but now I'm not so sure. In fact, I'm just confused. I've thrown out all the notes for my next rant as a lot of motives (Wealth, family backstabbing, love, etc) have already flown out the window, and now with this scene I'm back at square one. Magic is a means to embrace delusion and deny that your life and your actions are horrible. The Golden Land is a fiction meant to lull you into accepting awful circumstances and deeds. If this series of scenes with Maria is meant to demonstrate anything, narratively, it's to point out this. But what's Beatrice's goal in showing Battler these scenes? Is she trying to undercut her game, or is she about to dice up some incompetent theory by means of these feeble fantasies?
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Jan 31, 2017 19:33
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This isn't Beatrice showing Battler anything. This is a scene from Maria's diary being shown to Ange.
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Jan 31, 2017 19:46
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Dr Pepper posted:This isn't Beatrice showing Battler anything. Hmm! That does clear up the Battler question. I'm not sure it's a legit diary page, though. I'll have to go back and re-read whatever section I obviously missed.
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Jan 31, 2017 19:49
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What's important about this scene shows that not only was there Beatrice on the island the whole time, but also Virgilla. Therefore, Witches exist QED. 
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Jan 31, 2017 19:55
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Battler is the worst Dante.
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Jan 31, 2017 19:56
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ProfessorProf posted:All I'm going to add to this discussion is that when people complain about EP4's pacing, this is usually the part of EP4 they're talking about. Yeah. This is the first part where I've felt it's genuinely dragging. Dr Pepper posted:This isn't Beatrice showing Battler anything. Is this in her diary? If so, that opens up some seriously weird questions. Just who is Beatrice, and who is old Beatrice? There are definitely two separate Beatrices aware of each other if this is actually in her diary, because even if we, I think correctly, read Maria's diary as a coping mechanism. Her making up two characters who later exist seems unlikely. Unless everything in the meta-world is just a projection that Ange has while reading Maria's diary to try and work out what happened on Rokkenjima, years after the event. This is all just a continuation of her attempts to project out Maria in the schoolyard. And witch Rokkenjima vs. Battler Rokkenjima represents her internal struggle accepting what happened, based on characters Maria invented when she was writing her diary to cope with the abuse she was suffering. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Jan 31, 2017 |
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Jan 31, 2017 19:56
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CottonWolf posted:Yeah. This is the first part where I've felt it's genuinely dragging. Yeah, I'm not totally certain it's a legit page either. There's just a quick scene jump from Maria/Rosa to Maria/Beatrice/Virgilia. I'm more willing to think that this is Beatrice showing Ange a fantasy to remind her of her own childish power fantasies and lure her into accepting witches.  Virgilia!e. Did anyone already say magic is the opiate of the masses?
POOL IS CLOSED fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Jan 31, 2017 |
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Jan 31, 2017 20:04
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:Magic is a means to embrace delusion and deny that your life and your actions are horrible. The Golden Land is a fiction meant to lull you into accepting awful circumstances and deeds. It's certainly doing its drat hardest to turn a tragic murder mystery into something else. I was so sure this was a family feud centered around wealth and love and sibling rivalry that tears itself apart with ample help from a servant-led conspiracy, with magic being a smokescreen or literary metaphor. But that doesn't explain this scene. Apparently magic is more than just a metaphor now and is now insinuating itself into everyone and everything to no discernible purpose. The author wouldn't have written these magical scenes if they were completely irrelevant to the plot, and now they're shaping up to be about much more than just the murders. I can almost understand why Battler is confounded half the time. Edit: A majority of the time. Lycaeon fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Jan 31, 2017 |
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Jan 31, 2017 20:21
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^^^ All the time.bman in 2288 posted:We're gonna be stuck with Ange and Memory-Maria for a while, aren't we? As I said, Episode 4 can be summed up as: Sindai posted:Wow, this is way too depressing. I hope we get back to the gruesome murders soon.
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Jan 31, 2017 21:56
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My grandma would also try to pass off cough drops as candy. Kumasawa, I can see right through you! Stop hoarding all the good stuff!
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Feb 1, 2017 02:17
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CottonWolf posted:Is this in her diary? If so, that opens up some seriously weird questions. Just who is Beatrice, and who is old Beatrice? There are definitely two separate Beatrices aware of each other if this is actually in her diary, because even if we, I think correctly, read Maria's diary as a coping mechanism. Her making up two characters who later exist seems unlikely. This wouldn't be too difficult to explain; Virgilia (Old Beatrice) is Kumasawa, the elderly matron of the servant staff. The following fantastical battle scene aside (Seriously, what?), my hunch is she served as a mentor/close friend to real Beatrice (Who may or may not be Shannon). The magical relationship between Beatrice and Virgilia suggests that, as does Kumasawa's age; she's lived on the island for a long time, and if real Beatrice is someone also on the island, it's more likely than not they knew each other. This scene also suggests a mentor/student relationship between Beatrice and Virgilia. I thought about this scene a lot, as I was sure it was about the culprit behind Beatrice and it would've had several interesting implications if that was the case (Beatrice is a young girl here? She calls someone who could only be Kinzo 'Grandfather?), but in the end it's really too vague to draw any meaningful conclusions from. For one thing this Beatrice could be the one Rosa lead to her death (Since the backgrounds are the same and Kumasawa is old enough she would've still been around during this time), or it could just be another metaphorical magical scene and thus unreliable. Virgilia/Kumasawa being together with Maria and Beatrice suggests Maria learned her magical worldview from them both. All this together suggests magic isn't just metaphor or illusion - it's apparently a real school of thought that can be passed down from master to student, and applied in a manner that acts as a coping mechanism against a harsh reality. Which would mean there might be something more to the murders than just greed and sibling rivalry...the consistent magic circles and epitaph ritual point to occultist beliefs that in light of the previous points may not be just distractions or terror tactics for the victims after all, but something more meaningful and sinister. At which point the train of thought left the logic station and all my previous ideas about the murders didn't have tickets.
Lycaeon fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Feb 1, 2017 |
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Feb 1, 2017 02:18
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Beatrice, are you planning to kill everyone with a lion? Are you planning to kill everyone with two lions?
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Feb 1, 2017 03:35
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Where is the lion, anyway, and why are we only learning about it now? Is he going to be stuck inside of a message bottle, or did Maria forget him at home so Ange could discover him along with the diary later?
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Feb 1, 2017 04:17
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Glazius posted:Beatrice, are you planning to kill everyone with a lion? Beatrice's secret identity unveiled in Kinzo's shocking safari pictures!   Ooooooh, Beatrice...
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Feb 1, 2017 04:18
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Too bad Beatrice disemboweled the chimp theory. 
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Feb 1, 2017 04:22
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Maybe the real lion was inside us all along. I mean, I've heard lion is pretty tasty, so.
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Feb 1, 2017 04:35
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idonotlikepeas posted:Maybe the real lion was inside us all along. Maybe Sakutaro is Kanon's real name. edit: Just saw this gif and thought, 'Is that dog Battler then?' 
witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Feb 1, 2017 |
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Feb 1, 2017 04:48
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Lycaeon posted:magic. . .is now insinuating itself into everyone and everything "Now?"
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Feb 1, 2017 05:42
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Tender Child Loins posted:edit: Just saw this gif and thought, 'Is that dog Battler then?' Ange is clearly the one who knows well drat enough to stay out of bite distance.
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Feb 1, 2017 05:46
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John Lee posted:"Now?" Okay, you got me there. Tender Child Loins posted:Just saw this gif and thought, 'Is that dog Battler then?' It's about as threatening as Battler.
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Feb 1, 2017 06:26
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The problem with EP4's pacing that people usually complain about is really the fact that we know that some crazy interesting poo poo is about to drop on the gameboard "Bored? Wait a sec, this is where things start to get interesting. About now, Maria is probably going to say that she got an umbrella and a letter from Beatrice again, right? This is the essential part..."but what we get instead is Ange & Maria's Depression Hour which unfortunately (or by design?) makes people want to dismiss these scenes as unimportant and get to the good stuff.
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Feb 1, 2017 09:44
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Cool, I finally caught up with the rest of the thread. Umineko veteran here, magic's real and all that jazz. More importantly, between the super-in depth theorycrafting, analysis, and the swift update rate, I'm pretty sure this is the best LP of this behemoth I've ever seen. It's really impressive to see so many people having a go at dissecting not only the mysteries, but also the associated themes, motifs, and arguments that the work sees fit to include as well. Umineko is an incredibly ambitious story, so it's good to see people giving it its due. It's a pity I had to catch up in the middle of the 4th Arc, though. It's my second favorite, so waiting's going to be tough.
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Feb 1, 2017 11:03
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  BGM: Sukashiyuri  "...There was a large collection of books, the former possessions of a very rich man, that were being sold at auction, and it was thought that some of them might've been extremely valuable to the study of archeology and folklore, as well as in an occult sense, so this friend wanted to witness their worth confidentially." "...That was '87. Half a year after the crime on Rokkenjima." This was apparently a high-class restaurant. A middle-aged man was sitting across from Ange in a secluded and quiet seat. Amakusa could be seen by the entrance. He was probably keeping a lookout for pursuers from the Sumadera family. The scholarly man across from Ange spoke politely, but with enthusiasm. He didn't lay a finger on the food in front of him, so you could tell how excited he was as he spoke fervently. He was a professor at a certain college, and particularly well-known as an authority on Western folklore. However, among his life works, that was only a convenient exterior. His true life work was... the study of occultism, Western magic, alchemy, and everything else to do with the occult, as well as demonology. In short, he was the person in the best position to understand the details of Kinzo's research...  "First, what I learned by appraising those books was that Ms. Ushiromiya Eva had absolutely no education in the study of folklore...and that the original owner of the books, Ushiromiya Kinzo, was certainly one of the top five authorities on demonology in Japan."April, 1987. A major city antique shop obtained a large quantity of ancient documents that were thought to have a high historical value. They were entrusted with them by Ushiromiya Eva, who wanted them to be sold at auction. At the time, it was thought that Eva would succeed the Ushiromiya family and have all the wealth to herself, as the only survivor. However, at that point, not even half a year had passed since the accident, and the others had not been missing long enough to be presumed dead, even under extraordinary circumstances. Because of that, Eva had supposedly been in a very tight spot financially, unable even to collect on her family's life insurance. It seems she tried to sell everything of value, and even the books kept in the place where she'd escaped harm in, Kuwadorian, were used for this purpose. These old books, which would eventually be called 'the Ushiromiya Library', were later gathered from antique shops by authorities in the field so that they could be appraised, and those authorities were astounded.  "This is because... contained within 'the Ushiromiya Library' were many extremely vital documents that had never been found, though their existence had been known of for more than a millenium."The many dreams of the occult, such as those represented by alchemy, always stirred an intense fascination in dilettantes. It is whispered that many 'magic books' of great historical value, currently unknown to the public, might be in the secret possession of extremely wealthy lovers of the occult. Items such as Leonardo da Vinci's notebooks, which are particularly popular among dilettantes, are said to be prime examples of this. It is said that approximately 5,000 pages of these notebooks currently exist, and that over 10,000 have been lost, but some researchers believe that a large part of this lost portion may be monopolized by certain enthusiasts and members of the extremely rich. It is said that because of this, even now, dilettantes who can't help but seek these spare no expense to search around for quietly hoarded away and unannounced notebooks... There is probably no doubting that Ushiromiya Kinzo was himself one of those dilettantes. No one knows what Kinzo went through to obtain those, but there can be no mistake that he used his vast wealth freely, buying them off of other rich people with the same hobby as him. Those books, which were so valuable that enthusiasts could never satisfy their desire to hoard them away, were discovered in large numbers at the end of the 20th century, and their release to the public had given the entire world a massive shock...  "Because of this case, the name Rokkenjima became known across the world. The world was also shocked to learn that, in all likelihood, a large number of even more valuable undiscovered books were lost during the accident on Rokkenjima. Because of this, the names of Rokkenjima and the Ushiromiya Library will remain in our memories for all time." Because of that incident, the name of Rokkenjima had taken on a vital meaning in the world of the occult. There certainly had been a lot of reporting about the accident on Rokkenjima itself, but not on an international level. However, this one part had spread across the world, taking the image of Rokkenjima as a small island in the Izu archipelago... and painting it over as a demonic island where riddles, suspicion, mystery and the occult met. In other words, until Kinzo's library was leaked to the public by Eva, Rokkenjima had been merely a nameless island that no one could remember, and certainly not the island of a witch. However, when knowledge of the Ushiromiya Library spread all over the planet, Rokkenjima's image immediately took on an occult twist.  "What happened next was the discovery of that message bottle. That's what turned that island into a witch's island. A nameless island in the Izu archipelago began to transition into an island of the occult, the island of the mysterious witch, Beatrice. You might say that, lacking either the Ushiromiya Library or the message bottle, the Rokkenjima Witch Legend would never have been established." "...The message bottle." "It was once famous as a way of sending an SOS from a deserted island, but because of the influence of a certain prominent foreign detective novel, it has also become known as a method of confessing the truth after one's own death, like a time-delayed will. The case of the Rokkenjima message bottle was certainly one of the latter." "...This is the thing everyone says a fisherman on a nearby island picked up?" "Correct. We learned that a young fisherman on Shikinejima picked up a wine bottle with a letter in it. This young fisherman kept it just out of curiosity. Then, because Rokkenjima had fallen under the world's attention due to the Ushiromiya Library, he announced his discovery." "Is there any chance that it was a fabrication made by the fisherman?" "Of course, we weren't able to deny that possibility. The scraps of paper in the wine bottle were signed by a certain member of the Ushiromiya family. A girl named Ushiromiya Maria. However, after looking at the writing left on her former belongings, it was confirmed that this message was written in a different person's handwriting." "...A different person's handwriting...?" "Correct. At the very least, I believe there can be no doubt that it was written by a person more skilled at writing and of a greater age than her. There's a very high likelihood that someone faked her name when they wrote it. Therefore, at that point in time, the contents of those scraps of paper were thought to have a very low credibility."However.  "It seems that, due to evidence from the surrounding area and the fact that the bottle had been sealed, the police had decided that its likelihood of being a fabrication was low and that it had been abandoned no earlier than a few days before the accident. And the handwriting for both matched. This caused the credibility of the scraps of paper discovered by the fisherman to rise. It seems magazines and the like have reported on the contents of that message bottle repeatedly, but would you like an explanation?" "...No. I know about it, more or less."Many scraps of paper had been stuffed into both of the wine bottles. It was an extensive notebook written by someone calling themselves Ushiromiya Maria, but who wasn't Maria, and which told of the events starting the day before the accident and up until the day of the accident in a diary-like way.  "This bizarre, diary-style notebook described how the Ushiromiya family members, nailed down on the island by the typhoon, were caught up in a ceremony for the resurrection of a witch... and killed one by one in inexplicable ways. And, in the end, the Golden Witch Beatrice revived, and everything was flung into the Golden Land. It was written almost as though it was a complete account of the events on those days." "Also, it depicted the current situation on the island at the time in great detail, and the former servants who used to work for the Ushiromiya family gave testimony that it had definitely been written by a human who knew the inside details of the island." "...So, because of a combination of the occult boom from that strange fantasy novel and the Ushiromiya Library, and well as the fact that the truth remained shrouded in darkness, the legend of the Rokkenjima witch was born...?" "Correct. More than 10 years have already passed since that case, and it is still the focus of interest for occult enthusiasts across the world." "No, to the contrary, you could say that it has become increasingly deified as time passes. There are still many enthusiasts who try to secretly land on Rokkenjima, even though it's prohibited. Could there be another message bottle that has still not been discovered? And on that day, what really happened on that island? There is still much to be discussed."As though he had finally remembered that he'd been going on and on for some time, the man took a gulp of water. His potage was getting cold, but it seemed that the man's hunger had already been blown away. "...I'm pretty sure I heard that the fisherman's scraps of paper and the police's scraps of paper had completely different contents." "Correct. Due to that, interest in the Rokkenjima mystery increased even further. Inside both bottles were diary-style notebooks on which was written an account from the day before the accident until the day of the accident. However, while both of their contents described the same two-day period, they were completely different. It was as though one was the truth and one was a lie. Or perhaps both were lies. In any event, the beginnings and endings alone matched each other. In the beginning, the 18 people including the relatives are sealed up on the island by the typhoon. And in the ending, everyone dies, the Golden Witch is revived, and everything is flung into the Golden Land."The contents of both message bottles wrote about the events of the day before the accident and the day of the accident. But the details were completely different. Both diaries outline a serial murder following the epitaph of the witch, but the order of the sacrifices, the ways they died, and even 'the tale of the two days' were different. However, in both, everyone died in the end and the witch revived, making for the same general plot. "Because the only survivor, Ms. Ushiromiya Eva, has remained silent about what actually happened on that island, the events of that entire two-day period are shrouded in darkness. These two diaries presented a full two theories to wipe away that darkness. Those two days could be explained with either of those two diaries. However, we don't know which is correct, or even if there's anything correct contained within them." If it isn't denied, even a mixture of truth and fiction can be the truth. Through the media, these scraps of paper had of course been shown to Eva as well, but in the end, she never broke her silence...  "Who sent the message bottles... and why?" "Earlier, in their special issue for the crime's 10th anniversary, a certain magazine took that topic up for discussion in a grand manner, didn't they? That theory seems to be the one garnering the most support lately. But it is rather dull. What happened on that island, on that day? Considering this question is the true charm of the Witch Hunt." "The Witch Hunt...?" "Yes, the Rokkenjima Witch Hunt is the name of a group of enthusiasts who try to explain the truth of that crime from an occult perspective. Discussion of the mysteries that surround Rokkenjima, from the Ushiromiya Library to the mysterious two-day period to the Legend of the Golden Witch, is flourishing even today among enthusiasts." "For the 10 year anniversary, an international convention was held in New York. I also participated as a representative of Japan! I was able to intermingle with zealous overseas Witch Hunters in many ways. Witches are a very popular category overseas. The age span of the participants stretched from elementary schoolers at the bottom, all the way to famous cultural figures at the top! Even in Japan, in recent years, there was finally-" Even though I didn't ask anything more, he kept continuing on excitedly all by himself. As I swirled the thin film on my potage with my spoon, I shrugged my shoulders and sighed. Looks like researching about the message bottle really was a waste of time. No, if there's one thing I've found, it's that the notebook supposedly written by Maria onee-chan was actually written by a different person faking her name. And, that person wrote up an occult legend on their own, put it into the bottle as though it was the truth, and threw it into the sea. ...I have a question.  With a message bottle, there'd be no guarantee that it'd ever pass into anyone's hands. If their luck had been bad, it could've sunk in the ocean, never to be seen by anyone. And even if someone had picked it up, they might've not cared about it and thrown it away. Why would they entrust their confession of the truth to the sea with such an uncertain method? And why would they write up multiple, differing tales? If there'd been one message bottle, claiming that its story was the truth might be reckless, but not impossible. However, because there were two, that made both of them doubtful. If someone was plotting to make out those two days to be the work of a witch, then they really did go one step too far. And because there were two, it suggests that an undiscovered third one, or possibly even more might exist. In other words, the two differing contents makes both of them harder and harder to swallow. But despite that, the contents of both matched in that they told of a witch in a tale. So, is that the main point the writer wanted to get across to us...? It seems to me that the only possible explanation... is that someone who wanted to give rise to an illusion of a witch carried out this crime for their own enjoyment. However, the 17 people other than Aunt Eva lost their lives, and a vast wealth or maybe even 10 tons of gold had moved around secretly in the darkness. It doesn't feel right... for a confession occurring after all that to bring up this illusion of the witch. Even if we ignore the magazines' theories, it's very doubtful that the message bottle really was a diary. After all, the amount of writing was massive. It's hard to imagine that someone actually caught up in the middle of a serial murder like that would be able to calmly write it down. In that case, it's probably more realistic that this diary was written slowly over a long period of time, up until the day prior to the accident.  The fact that Aunt Eva left this world without saying anything is... infuriating. She definitely said it on her death bed. She definitely said that her reason for not telling me the truth was because it was her best way of harassing me. Yeah, by now, it's painfully obvious. Of all the things Aunt Eva did to harass me, this was probably the last and the greatest. ...But thinking of it this way, it's pretty doubtful that Aunt Eva is the true culprit. Of course, that's not because the handwriting on the message bottle was different from Aunt Eva's, or anything like that. It's because in both tales that were discovered, Aunt Eva was included among the victims. If the writer of that diary was the culprit... Maybe Aunt Eva was also one of the targets to be killed. Maybe Aunt Eva survived because something went wrong. ...Because I hated Aunt Eva, I came to believe that she had to be the culprit. But the existence of the message bottle... makes me suspect that the mastermind is a far more profound and unknown person than her...  As he continued to speak fervently, I suggested that I wanted to bring this discussion to a close. He seemed to be aware that he'd gotten excited and talked too much, so he quickly accepted this. "Thank you very much for today. I believe I've heard something truly valuable." "...No, no. It was truly fun to be able to welcome a young lady as a new friend of the Witch Hunt. I have many precious materials that I couldn't show you because of this change to a different venue from the usual. I would be glad to show you them at the next chance we get." "Thank you, Professor. Could I ask one more thing?" "Yes, what is it?" "Professor, why are you interested in witches...no, in occultism and demonology?" "Well, that is somewhat embarrassing. A daydream I had in my childhood, that if I could use a mysterious power, I could take on even the biggest of bullies, went on to become my life's work. After all, the primitive desire of admiring unknown power is as universal today as it ever was in the past." "Professor, if you could do it, would you want to become a witch? Do you still dream of being able to use magic at will?" "But of course. Even though, at this age, I understand logically that such a thing couldn't exist, I cannot forget my child-like dreams, such as flying in the sky and turning scrap iron into gold. Hahaha, if you would, please keep this a secret from my students." "...If I told you that I was a real witch, would you believe it?" "Hahhahhahha. My pet theory from my few experiences with women is that they are all witches."Ange snorted at the old professor, who must've been an earnest scholar with barely any experience with women.   "I have indeed." "In that case, do you know that handwriting well?" "Of course. I am not a specialist in that area, but at least when it comes to the handwriting of the message bottle, I am proud to be the most knowledgeable in Japan." BGM: Melody (instrumental) "...And this is? I have never seen it before."He prided himself on his thorough knowledge of all literature related to Rokkenjima, and he looked bewildered at this binding that he hadn't seen before... Ignoring him, Ange silently flipped through the pages, opened to one of them, and showed him. On that page was a handwritten paragraph beginning with 'To my beloved witch apprentice'. And at the end, there was a signature in katakana that said... Beatrice.  "Th-This is...?"The instant he glanced at it, his face went pale. She knew the answer before asking, but Ange asked it aloud anyway. "Does the handwriting in the paragraph on this page match the handwriting in the message bottle...?" "W-Well, umm...I-I must take this home and investigate more... P-Pardon me for asking, but what in the world is this book?! Where did you get it?!"The man stretched out his hand, but Ange pulled it back. As though telling him not to touch it with his filthy hands. "Thank you. Just that reaction is all I need. Thank you very much for today. Here's the reward I promised."As she stood up, clutching Maria's diary, Ange carelessly tossed a wad of 10 thousand yen notes wrapped with a strip of paper onto the table. As Ange turned her back to him and made to leave, the man raised his voice as though clinging to her. But Ange didn't stop walking.  "...Both you and I are in the Witch Hunt, but it looks like we aren't pursuing it at the same level. You're entertaining yourself with the outside of the cat box. And what I want to know about is the inside of the cat box. And this book is the key to opening it. It's too good for you. Well then. <Goodbye, gentlemen>. <Have a nice day>." "P-Please wait, Sumadera-san...!!!"
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Feb 1, 2017 14:32
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Cat box conjures up the litter box before Schroedinger's cat.
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Feb 1, 2017 15:23
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Fun fact: the Witch Hunt name here is actually Ryukishi's special callout to the original WitchHunt team who were translating Umineko as it was coming out.
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Feb 1, 2017 15:33
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ProfessorProf posted:
Boy, I wish I could laugh at this depiction of sexism in media for being fantastical and ridiculous, but I can't because it is in fact very believable. People think that knowledge is the opposite, and cure, of ignorance, but it really, really isn't. All sorts of really irrational, antithetical ideas have been help by otherwise analytical, highly praised minds; to be an expert in one field doesn't mean you can't have some uninformed and frankly insane idea in another field. So I'm glad she told him to blow, even though she is a bit...brusque about it (I know she's had a bad life, but seriously, that whole throwing money at people thing to say "I'm done talking to you now, leave" is the rudest upper-class poo poo ever).
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Feb 1, 2017 15:42
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resurgam40 posted:(I know she's had a bad life, but seriously, that whole throwing money at people thing to say "I'm done talking to you now, leave" is the rudest upper-class poo poo ever).
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Feb 1, 2017 16:02
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lotus circle posted:I interpret it as Ange not giving a poo poo about any of the money she now has, so she'll just toss it around for what she really needs (information that could lead her to the truth of what happened on Rokkenjima) without caring. It's not that she's flaunting how rich she is - she literally doesn't care about her fortune. It's meaningless without her family. That's even more discourteous. She's throwing something she doesn't value at someone as a dismissal. In context, she's treating the payment and the recipient as less than trash. That's not how one gives a gift or a payment, especially not in Japan.
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Feb 1, 2017 16:21
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resurgam40 posted:So I'm glad she told him to blow, even though she is a bit...brusque about it (I know she's had a bad life, but seriously, that whole throwing money at people thing to say "I'm done talking to you now, leave" is the rudest upper-class poo poo ever). She does that to everyone. Here, the first page of the EP3 manga's ???? chapter, basically Ange's introduction:  lotus circle posted:I interpret it as Ange not giving a poo poo about any of the money she now has, so she'll just toss it around for what she really needs (information that could lead her to the truth of what happened on Rokkenjima) without caring. It's not that she's flaunting how rich she is - she literally doesn't care about her fortune. It's meaningless without her family. I think it's pretty much this, yeah.
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Feb 1, 2017 16:27
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ProfessorProf posted:
Lots of interesting points in this update, especially the implication that the Beatrice who wrote in Maria's diary is the same person who wrote the stories in the bottles. POOL IS CLOSED posted:That's even more discourteous. She's throwing something she doesn't value at someone as a dismissal. In context, she's treating the payment and the recipient as less than trash. That's not how one gives a gift or a payment, especially not in Japan. This is what it looks like to me. I'm guessing some part of her is disdainful towards the man and others like him for treating her family's deaths like a occultist puzzle box hobby, and I can't really blame her. Edit: Wait a minute, aren't we treating her family's deaths like an occultist puzzle box hobby? 
Lycaeon fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Feb 1, 2017 |
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Feb 1, 2017 17:34
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Lycaeon posted:This is what it looks like to me. I'm guessing some part of her is disdainful towards the man and others like him for treating her family's deaths like a occultist puzzle box hobby, and I can't really blame her. She's a hobby puzzle too, as far as we're concerned.
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Feb 1, 2017 18:30
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So yeah, somebody was wondering earlier if the scene was really in Maria's diary, looks like it. Also this really does show that multiple message bottles were thrown out. Plus we see that Beatrice wrote them. Therefore... witches confirmed.
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Feb 1, 2017 18:44
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Lycaeon posted:This is what it looks like to me. I'm guessing some part of her is disdainful towards the man and others like him for treating her family's deaths like a occultist puzzle box hobby, and I can't really blame her. lotus circle posted:Fun fact: the Witch Hunt name here is actually Ryukishi's special callout to the original WitchHunt team who were translating Umineko as it was coming out. We're through the looking glass here people!
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Feb 1, 2017 19:28
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Dr Pepper posted:So yeah, somebody was wondering earlier if the scene was really in Maria's diary, looks like it. I had a hunch that the Beatrice and Virgilia in that scene were Shannon and Kumasawa, respectively. Maria just elaborated on the details, in the same way as she did with her pajama party. So if the handwriting matches, I think we can assume Shannon wrote the bottle messages. She certainly had the time and knowhow to do it, with all the detail that entails.
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Feb 1, 2017 19:37
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ProfessorProf posted:
Thank you so much for explaining that, Professor Ootsuki. I don't know what Ange would do without your incredible expertise.
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Feb 1, 2017 19:39
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:That's even more discourteous. She's throwing something she doesn't value at someone as a dismissal. In context, she's treating the payment and the recipient as less than trash. That's not how one gives a gift or a payment, especially not in Japan. It is, however, a great way to make enemies. It would be really funny if this Witch Hunt hired art thieves or outright thugs to chase Ange and they ended up more effective than the yakuza. They've just been established as huge, and probably at least a little crazy.
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Feb 1, 2017 19:55
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avoraciopoctules posted:It is, however, a great way to make enemies. It would be really funny if this Witch Hunt hired art thieves or outright thugs to chase Ange and they ended up more effective than the yakuza. They've just been established as huge, and probably at least a little crazy. I hope the story doesn't go this way. We've already got so many loose ends to deal with.
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Feb 1, 2017 19:57
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Tender Child Loins posted:I had a hunch that the Beatrice and Virgilia in that scene were Shannon and Kumasawa, respectively. Maria just elaborated on the details, in the same way as she did with her pajama party. Handwriting matches what? Ange doesn't have definitive handwriting samples for Shannon or Kumasawa, just Maria's actual diary. She can certainly prove or disprove whether the pages in the bottles are written by Maria, but she has no way to do the same for Shannon or Kumasawa. If the handwriting does not match Maria's, we have no real way of figuring out who wrote those messages at the moment, other than that they likely actually did know Maria due to the contents.
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Feb 1, 2017 20:39
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| # ? May 12, 2024 03:39 |
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The handwriting in the message bottle stories matches the handwriting of someone calling themselves Beatrice in Maria's diary. TCL is arguing that they're Shannon. Edit:Another thing this update points out is that whatever happened on Rokkenjima it left so little evidence that there was actual doubt of who was alive or dead. Dr Pepper fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Feb 1, 2017 |
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Feb 1, 2017 21:00
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