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If idiots wanna guarantee 8 years of Trump by all means, that Milo guy was on Tucker Carlson for godsakes, if people didn't know who he was before, they sure as poo poo do now.
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Feb 2, 2017 10:11
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That Milo is despicable doesn't make violent protest okay. It's amazing how many people on the left are cool with abandoning free speech as soon as it's speech they hate. You guys are sad.
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Feb 2, 2017 10:21
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Universities have a duty to protect their students. Milo is a threat to the students, having bullied a trans student until she was forced to drop out, and because of this Universities should not allow him to visit.
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Feb 2, 2017 10:31
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Cicero posted:That Milo is despicable doesn't make violent protest okay. It's amazing how many people on the left are cool with abandoning free speech as soon as it's speech they hate. You guys are sad. You have motherfuckers in other states trying to pass legislation that would make it legal to mow down protesters with a car and you want loving decorum? For fucks sake, mate.
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Feb 2, 2017 10:32
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Oh no, violence against windows and telephone poles, truly we have debased ourselves far beyond the guy who advocates mass state violence against entire classes of human beings.
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Feb 2, 2017 10:35
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k stone posted:Oh no, violence against windows and telephone poles, truly we have debased ourselves far beyond the guy who advocates mass state violence against entire classes of human beings. This. Milo has a right to say what he wants and people have a right to tell him to gently caress off.
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Feb 2, 2017 10:37
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Cicero posted:That Milo is despicable doesn't make violent protest okay. It's amazing how many people on the left are cool with abandoning free speech as soon as it's speech they hate. You guys are sad. No, it's okay because it stopped a hateful shitstain of a human being from spewing his bile where it's neither wanted nor needed. You can cry about free speech all you want, but the right to speak freely does not protect you from the ramifications of said speech. In this case, the riot in Berkley was a direct response to Milo's prior speech: in this case that we didn't want to loving hear it and he could gently caress right off. Let him go speak in some deep red county where they'll throw him a party instead of a riot. Most of us however are unwilling to stand idle while these shitheads get a platform to deprive minorities of their basic human dignity.
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Feb 2, 2017 10:48
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VikingofRock posted:Universities have a duty to protect their students. Milo is a threat to the students, having bullied a trans student until she was forced to drop out, and because of this Universities should not allow him to visit. Forceholy posted:You have motherfuckers in other states trying to pass legislation that would make it legal to mow down protesters with a car and you want loving decorum? For fucks sake, mate. k stone posted:Oh no, violence against windows and telephone poles, truly we have debased ourselves far beyond the guy who advocates mass state violence against entire classes of human beings. Forceholy posted:This. Milo has a right to say what he wants and people have a right to tell him to gently caress off. quote:The trouble began around 6 p.m., two hours before Yiannopoulos was to begin his speech inside the student union building on Sproul Plaza. Protesters outside the building began throwing fireworks and pulling down the metal barricades police set up to keep protesters from rushing inside. Windows were smashed and fires were set outside the building as masked protesters stormed it. Police quickly evacuated Yiannopoulos for his own safety. Sydin posted:No, it's okay because it stopped a hateful shitstain of a human being from spewing his bile where it's neither wanted nor needed. quote:You can cry about free speech all you want, but the right to speak freely does not protect you from the ramifications of said speech. quote:In this case, the riot in Berkley was a direct response to Milo's prior speech: in this case that we didn't want to loving hear it and he could gently caress right off. Let him go speak in some deep red county where they'll throw him a party instead of a riot. Most of us however are unwilling to stand idle while these shitheads get a platform to deprive minorities of their basic human dignity.
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Feb 2, 2017 11:01
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I can't believe people's argument is literally "yeah but his speech is REALLY bad so in this case getting violent is fine!" The hypocrisy is astounding, none of you would stand for this behavior if conservatives flipped out at a far-left speaker and you know it.
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Feb 2, 2017 11:04
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He painted a target on a trans student which is almost nearly direct violence, so.
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Feb 2, 2017 11:14
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He has harassed specific individuals at previous events, and his calls for violence have resulted in his supporters actually acting on them to injure people; his speech is different in kind, not quality. I really don't see minor property damage as that big of a deal (people keep calling it VIOLENCE and I really think that ought to be distinguished from violence against actual people), and it successfully prevented him from being given a platform. For what it's worth, I decided against joining the protests because I assumed they would result in people getting hurt (which, fortunately, seems to have been minimal), so instead I had friends over who were worried about their safety so they could have a place off-campus to be around other people and offered to help people who wanted to get away from any potential violence safely.
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Feb 2, 2017 11:18
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Edit: on second thought, this post was kind of rambling and stupid.
VikingofRock fucked around with this message at 11:40 on Feb 2, 2017 |
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Feb 2, 2017 11:19
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Man, a lot of antifa idiots are getting way to high on their own supply of self-righteousness. First they spent the last week acting like they personally won WW2 because they shared a video of an idiot getting punched, now this. We're in for some really bad years if this is how where the far left is gonna try to drag things. I mean, poo poo, at least the few riots that have occurred around Black Lives Matter protests have been a result of severe police action cracking down on people who literally have to fear for their lives because of the police. This is a bunch of college kids who can't handle an internet troll.
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Feb 2, 2017 12:12
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LanceHunter posted:I mean, poo poo, at least the few riots that have occurred around Black Lives Matter protests have been a result of severe police action cracking down on people who literally have to fear for their lives because of the police. This is a bunch of college kids who can't handle an internet troll. Are you paying any attention to what's happening in this country right now? The unprecedented and unconstitutional things that are going on, and how fast things have been deteriorating? The white house is basically under the control of a white supremacist (Bannon) and his narcissistic pissbaby puppet, and the administration gives zero fucks about civil rights, global warming, workers rights, health care, education, etc, because to do so makes them slightly less wealthy and hurts Bannon's chances of realizing his dream of destroying America's power structure and building a white militant christian fascist state that will go on a new crusade against Islam. That's his end goal. People's lives and livelihoods are being threatened, and all signs point to the possibility that it can get much, much worse. That's why some people are rioting and are finally fed up enough that they're ready to beat the piss out of any white supremacist that shows their face in public. There's a lot more going on than nerds hating an internet troll.
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Feb 2, 2017 14:08
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Calling milo an internet troll is a dangerous way to minimize his popularity, and the harm he has and will continue to inflict on people. I'm very leery of the argument that people like Milo should just be ignored rather than confronted, because it shifts blame to the people protesting hatred rather than the hatred itself. And it's clear that "reasonable" (in reality code for "non-threatening") debate and discourse against the right, both nationally and internationally, has failed to stem the tide of bigotry and discrimination towards minority groups.
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Feb 2, 2017 14:18
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Rah! posted:Are you paying any attention to what's happening in this country right now? The unprecedented and unconstitutional things that are going on, and how fast things have been deteriorating? The white house is basically under the control of a white supremacist (Bannon) and his narcissistic pissbaby puppet, and the administration gives zero fucks about civil rights, global warming, workers rights, health care, education, etc, because to do so makes them slightly less wealthy and hurts Bannon's chances of realizing his dream of destroying America's power structure and building a white militant christian fascist state that will go on a new crusade against Islam. That's his end goal. People's lives and livelihoods are being threatened, and all signs point to the possibility that it can get much, much worse. That's why some people are rioting and are finally fed up enough that they're ready to beat the piss out of any white supremacist that shows their face in public. There's a lot more going on than nerds hating an internet troll. I just think MLK and Ghandi were both able to effectively lead legions of supporters to march against hate and bigotry and they never once resorted to violence to attain their goals. You're right in that the anger is real and understandable, but tactics are also a relevant and important thing to criticize, especially now. The ability to dismiss violent, property-destroying protesters as agitators that can simply be ignored is too easy for most Americans. It clouds the overall message. EDIT: also this: Cicero posted:That Milo is despicable doesn't make violent protest okay. It's amazing how many people on the left are cool with abandoning free speech as soon as it's speech they hate. You guys are sad. VH4Ever fucked around with this message at 14:21 on Feb 2, 2017 |
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Feb 2, 2017 14:19
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We do not live in the world of Gandhi or MLK Jr. anymore. Protests have evolved to become decentralized movements mobilized rapidly through social media. Furthermore, if one wants to thrust MLK into the conversation they should recognize his words that violence is the language of the oppressed; the instigators of that violence are not merely the ones that commit it, but society for inciting it.
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Feb 2, 2017 14:24
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Chelb posted:We do not live in the world of Gandhi or MLK Jr. anymore. Protests have evolved to become decentralized movements mobilized rapidly through social media. Furthermore, if one wants to thrust MLK into the conversation they should recognize his words that violence is the language of the oppressed; the instigators of that violence are not merely the ones that commit it, but society for inciting it. That sounds like a whole fat load of excuse making to me. Again, not saying I'm baffled that people are pissed off, or why people are pissed off, just pointing out that incidents like this one don't do one positive thing to address the really disturbing things that are going on. In fact it seems to most of America like kids with sour grapes who ought to shut up and go back to class.
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Feb 2, 2017 14:29
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Can anyone criticizing the use of violence against the right and far right outline an effective alternate strategy that avoids incidences of violence? What else hasn't been attempted by leftist movements? What else hasn't ultimately ended in obsolescence or failure?
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Feb 2, 2017 14:31
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There's a political cartoon from mlk's day showing the man standing in the middle of a wrecked street and telling a shocked guy that they're planning another "nonviolent" protest (scare quotes not mine). Like here it is: http://franklycurious.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/MLK-ContemporaryCartoon.jpg . So saying that people didn't view mlk protests the same way back then as they view the protests today is wrong. Also if somebody decides to vote/support trump in the future because of what happens in Berkeley, they're letting so much poo poo slide that I question if they were ever that anti trump in the first place. kurona_bright fucked around with this message at 14:37 on Feb 2, 2017 |
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Feb 2, 2017 14:34
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Chelb posted:Can anyone criticizing the use of violence against the right and far right outline an effective alternate strategy that avoids incidences of violence? What else hasn't been attempted by leftist movements? What else hasn't ultimately ended in obsolescence or failure? So to be clear: you don't believe the Civil Rights movement in the US and Indian independence movements are examples of this? I'm not so unrealistic as to believe violence can be quelled across the board, Ghandi dealt with this. But it shouldn't be encouraged and the push has to be toward civil disobedience and peaceful resistance, in my opinion. kurona_bright posted:There's a political cartoon from mlk's day showing the man standing in the middle of a wrecked street and telling a shocked guy that they're planning another "nonviolent" protest (scare quotes not mine). Like here it is: http://franklycurious.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/MLK-ContemporaryCartoon.jpg . I guess I haven't seen someone making this argument, and I sure am not. Of course people will lie and misrepresent. In this case there was property damage and etc, right? With social media it's easier to see what's actually happening with all the live videos. Harder to obfuscate. VH4Ever fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Feb 2, 2017 |
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Feb 2, 2017 14:36
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VH4Ever posted:So to be clear: you don't believe the Civil Rights movement in the US and Indian independence movements are examples of this? I'm not so unrealistic as to believe violence can be quelled across the board, Ghandi dealt with this. But it shouldn't be encouraged and the push has to be toward civil disobedience and peaceful resistance, in my opinion. I think they were brilliant movements that changed the world successfully in their time, but I also think that they're incapable of being recreated with success in the 21st century. Protests have moved past the ideal of a charismatic singular figure that inspires their followers to action. We've seen it with the Arab Spring, the spontaneous Muslim ban protests, and even with the organized decentralization of the Women's March that effective movements in the modern world emphasize the ability of the individual to congregate and act. And despite my deep respect for the civil rights movement of the 60's, I reject the view that the only successful or right movements entirely avoid nonviolence. That is a perspective pushed by those who seek to silence the voice of Malcolm X, the voice of any individual who feels threatened and harmed yet restricted in how they express their oppressed nature. It is, in a word, whitewashed.
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Feb 2, 2017 14:49
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Cicero posted:Sure. They just don't have a right to do it violently You don't have a right to do it, it has a price, but that doesn't mean the price isn't worth paying. Donald Trump offered to pay the legal bills of people who violently beat up people who disagreed with him. Because that's the price of violence and he has enough money to spend.
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Feb 2, 2017 15:17
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Man, I hate it when protestors get uppity enough for me to have to slightly modify my behavior.
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Feb 2, 2017 15:20
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Cicero posted:I can't believe people's argument is literally "yeah but his speech is REALLY bad so in this case getting violent is fine!" The hypocrisy is astounding, none of you would stand for this behavior if conservatives flipped out at a far-left speaker and you know it. I would absolutely stand for it if the far-left speaker were advocating bullying and violence against people who had less power than he or she had. There's a false equivalence floating around in this discussion that, itself, is dangerous. Far-left rage against the machine is 100% not the same as what Milo spews.
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Feb 2, 2017 16:28
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Besides doxxing and harassing people to the point they fear for their safety (which he's actually done twice recently; he did the same thing he did to the trans girl at the last campus he was allowed to speak at, except that time it was a Muslim student he targeted), Milo's also the guy whose fan shot someone the day of the inauguration. The man who shot up that Canadian mosque was also radicalized by various online communities and figures like Milo. He was also largely involved in GamerGate and such and helped push all the harassment, doxxing, and SWATing there, too, among other harassment campaigns he's behind. Also, now we're playing the "quote MLK to oppose people standing up for their rights/safety" game apparently. Great. Well, here's another quote of his: "A riot is the language of the unheard." He wasn't pro-violence, but acknowledged that, if people were so pissed that they're out in the streets breaking things, there's a reason for that, and the blame lies with those who drove them to that point. Students petitioned the university to keep a threat to their safety off the campus, the university failed to listen, and so they took matters into their own hands. If you want someone to be mad at, be mad at the university for not doing something sooner, since, as people have said, it's their responsibility to protect their students and yet they still let a man known for harassing students until they drop out of school speak there. Besides, it was a pretty small "riot"; a few broken windows and a couple fires so small that all the news pictures of them have to be enlarged and unsubtly cropped to make them look bigger? No one hurt besides the dumbass Nazi who decided to shout how much he hates people who aren't white in front of protesters and the girl and her friends who probably "pepper sprayed" themselves? This is nothing compared to, again, the people on the other side shooting people. Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 17:34 on Feb 2, 2017 |
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Feb 2, 2017 17:14
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The Rodney King riots forced people to recognize and pay attention to the decades of gross misjustice and racism being perpetrated by the LA police. The UC Berkely antifa riots will not do anything similar because the gross injustice of a bad man being invited to speak at the country's most notoriously liberal college doesn't rise to the same level in people's minds, as the violent oppression of black people by the police. Like peaceful protest, violent protest has its place: as an absolute last resort, in response to systematic and long-lasting violence against the oppressed. As horrifying as this sudden rightward lurch in the nation's politics may feel, the peaceful protests nationwide on the day after the inauguration were impressive, accomplished more, and cannot be ignored. Protesters at Berkeley had an opportunity to continue that movement on a local level, but the violence undermines the message, makes the opposition into martyr figures, and plays right into the long-term narrative that allows everyone else in the country to dismiss Berkeley as a ludicrous caricature of liberalism instead of someplace to take seriously.
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Feb 2, 2017 17:32
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at a glance it appears that the people who got maced last night showed up to a riot in Trump gear in an attempt to troll an angry mob, so lets call it an object lesson to the tune of "real life is not Reddit and you are not as funny as you think you are"
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Feb 2, 2017 17:34
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The Berkeley protests will push away those GOP moderates we've been courting!
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Feb 2, 2017 17:35
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Leperflesh posted:The Rodney King riots forced people to recognize and pay attention to the decades of gross misjustice and racism being perpetrated by the LA police. Okay, then, what should the students have done? As established, Milo is an actual threat to the safety of students; besides leading to harassment so bad people have to drop out of school, the type of poo poo he pulls has literally gotten people killed in the past, between driving people to suicide and sparking things like SWATing and direct violence against the subjects. (Or people in general; remember, again, it's his fans who've been shooting people.) And he's been making it a pattern whenever he's allowed to speak lately; starting a new harassment campaign at each college he gets to speak at seems to be his new thing. Not letting him pull that again is important, and people tried to stop it. First they tried to talk to the university, but the university decided to risk it. What do you think the students should have done next? Because it really sounds like you and the other people in this thread are saying "let him doxx another innocent bystander and hope that no one gets hurt too badly this time" was the way to go.
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Feb 2, 2017 17:41
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Actually no, choosing to protest nonviolent is not "letting him" commit crimes. It is not the responsibility of protestors to prevent him from doing those things, especially since protesting - violently or not - does not actually prevent him from doing those things at all. You are presenting a red herring in your argument. Is he bad? Yes. Does he do lovely things that are or ought to be illegal? Yes. Can the students of UC Berkeley prevent that, by protesting - violently or not? No. The protest's job is to send a message. To those responsible at Berkeley that invited him, to him, to his followers. The message is "we think your poo poo is intolerable, gently caress off." Adding violence to the protest does not make it more effective at any of these things, but does severely undermine the effectiveness of the message. The only ones with the power to stop their brand of harassment are the police and lawmakers. You need to recruit them to your side and convince them to act. You will not succeed in justifying violence by pointing out how bad the guy you're protesting is, because the justification has to be practical. What, in your opinion, did the violence succeed at doing? Because again, it suuuure as gently caress doesn't get Milo to stop his crap, and in fact very probably just makes him and his followers more sure that their crap is justified. While the media and onlookers are going to go "LOL berkeley, amirite?" because at this point Berkeley is a goddamn parody. Like seriously, I'm struggling to think of a worse tactic than pepper spraying nonviolent Milo supporters. You turned his shithead supporters into victims!
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Feb 2, 2017 17:55
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Leperflesh posted:Does he do lovely things that are or ought to be illegal? Yes. Can the students of UC Berkeley prevent that, by protesting - violently or not? No. They did, though. He wasn't able to speak that night, because of the protest.
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Feb 2, 2017 18:01
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CPColin posted:They did, though. He wasn't able to speak that night, because of the protest. Yeah, this is my point. They actually did stop him. The university didn't, so they took matters into his own hands, an outcome that's preferable to Milo trying to ruin another person's life even if a few windows got smashed instead. Also there's plenty of reason to believe that the girl who got pepper sprayed set it up with her friends, among other things her almost definitely not having been hit with actual pepper spray, but that's a different subject and irrelevant to the main point either way I suppose.
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Feb 2, 2017 18:10
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Roland Jones posted:Yeah, this is my point. They actually did stop him. The university didn't, so they took matters into his own hands, an outcome that's preferable to Milo trying to ruin another person's life even if a few windows got smashed instead. And instead he spent the night on Fox News. Successfully stopping Milo from reaching an audience.
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Feb 2, 2017 18:16
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Trabisnikof posted:And instead he spent the night on Fox News. Successfully stopping Milo from reaching an audience. oh word a mouthy right wing doofus got on Fox News? incroyable
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Feb 2, 2017 18:20
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CPColin posted:They did, though. He wasn't able to speak that night, because of the protest. Him speaking at Berkeley is less legitimizing of his poo poo than him being driven out of Berkeley by violent left-wingers. It was an absolute success for him and his movement and the people who think they accomplished something good in this thread are completely delusional.
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Feb 2, 2017 18:25
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Leperflesh posted:Him speaking at Berkeley is less legitimizing of his poo poo than him being driven out of Berkeley by violent left-wingers. It was an absolute success for him and his movement and the people who think they accomplished something good in this thread are completely delusional. Donald Trump is president and youre over here whining about legitimizing nazis. That boat has sailed, my man.
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Feb 2, 2017 18:28
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Leperflesh posted:Him speaking at Berkeley is less legitimizing of his poo poo than him being driven out of Berkeley by violent left-wingers. It was an absolute success for him and his movement and the people who think they accomplished something good in this thread are completely delusional. So he wins if he gets a speech or he wins if he doesn't get a speech. I choose let him win without a speech.
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Feb 2, 2017 18:31
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Leperflesh posted:Him speaking at Berkeley is less legitimizing of his poo poo than him being driven out of Berkeley by violent left-wingers. It was an absolute success for him and his movement and the people who think they accomplished something good in this thread are completely delusional. I'm gonna break your windows at GoonCon.
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Feb 2, 2017 18:32
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Trabisnikof posted:And instead he spent the night on Fox News. Successfully stopping Milo from reaching an audience. LMAO Fox news huh? What a tragedy.
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