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Skinty McEdger posted:A researcher I know said this isn't an uncommon sentiment at the commons at the moment. The way she put it was that you vote, get labeled by Farage and the Mail as an enemy of the people, and then the next time you're mentioned by either it's to say that no one could have forseen the attack upon you on the streets and they certainly had nothing to do with it. Well it's game over then. The papers not only control the narrative but directly control our politicians.
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Feb 2, 2017 13:06
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Pissflaps posted:Why would the EU want to see British financial services relocate to Northern Ireland, particularly? They wouldn't particularly. The point is that ROI would need a sweetener to take on the annual 6 billion sinkhole of NI. And that, as I said, would probably take the form of structural funding or debt forgiveness. e: The money could just as easily be used to rejuvenate NI manufacturing, but somehow I don't see Harlann&Wolff being the saviours of NI
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Feb 2, 2017 13:07
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Wheat Loaf posted:Genuinely wouldn't be surprised if Northern Ireland ends up effectively "cut out" of the UK's borders, ends up like a kind of Kaliningrad Oblast thing. If there were a border poll held this year I would vote for Irish reunification. I was nominally unionist all my life but the certainty and security that made the union appealing evaporated last summer and we are now tied to a maniac country riding a bomb. :/
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Feb 2, 2017 13:08
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WeAreTheRomans posted:They wouldn't particularly. The point is that ROI would need a sweetener to take on the annual 6 billion sinkhole of NI. And that, as I said, would probably take the form of structural funding or debt forgiveness. Isn't the Republic constitutionally bound to seek a reunited Ireland?
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Feb 2, 2017 13:09
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If there was a border poll campaign I think "The NHS!" would come up pretty quickly and a response of "sure maybe well talk about it later" might not cut it - I don't think its impossible to swing public opinion but I think there currently does not exist an organised political force that could
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Feb 2, 2017 13:09
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Pissflaps posted:Isn't the Republic constitutionally bound to seek a reunited Ireland? No
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Feb 2, 2017 13:10
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Has the EU ever before entered into such horse trading? It just doesn't seem to be something it does?
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Feb 2, 2017 13:10
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Pissflaps posted:Isn't the Republic constitutionally bound to seek a reunited Ireland? Per the GFA, if NI votes for reunification it gets put to the citizenry of ROI by referendum. They would need convincing
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Feb 2, 2017 13:11
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kustomkarkommando posted:Eh, I wouldn't underestimate the resilience of Unionism as a political force and a lot of that plan entails an active drive from FG for reunification which seems a bit unreliable - if its FF I could buy it but their brand of rhetoric is more traditional wouldn't do much to galvanize traditional unionist support for a united Ireland There's plenty of people in the DUP (and elsewhere) who, given the choice, would rather Northern Ireland end up as an independent state than be part of the Republic. Sammy Wilson, for instance. There's unionism and then there's this kind of ultra-loyalist mentality which believes Ulster Protestants are more British than the British themselves. Funny how one of the more famous Paisley quotes from the end of his career was "You cannot be an Ulsterman without being an Irishman".
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Feb 2, 2017 13:12
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Only from Wikipedia but quote:Article 2 and Article 3 of the Constitution of Ireland (Bunreacht na hÉireann) were adopted with the constitution as a whole on 29 December 1937, but completely revised by means of the Nineteenth Amendment which took effect on 2 December 1999.[1] As amended they grant the right to be "part of the Irish Nation" to all of those born on the island of Ireland and express a desire for the peaceful political unification of the island subject to the consent of the peoples of Northern Ireland and Ireland. Would be odd for the people north and south to demand reunification, but the actual decision to hinge on EU 'sweeteners': though is all quite wishy washy tbf.
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Feb 2, 2017 13:13
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WeAreTheRomans posted:Per the GFA, if NI votes for reunification it gets put to the citizenry of ROI by referendum. They would need convincing That's interesting I always assumed they'd be for it tbh.
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Feb 2, 2017 13:13
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http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2017/02/01/by-backing-the-brexit-bill-labour-is-writing-the-tories-a-blank-cheque/ This summarises my thoughts on why labour are morons nicely.
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Feb 2, 2017 13:13
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Pissflaps posted:Has the EU ever before entered into such horse trading? It just doesn't seem to be something it does? There was a lot of deal-making regarding the reunification of East and West Germany which I don't really know the specifics of, but yes they do sometimes. And Brexit is going to be a wild ride for all negotiating parties. Anyway, note that reunification does not currently have the electoral numbers in NI (or, in fact, ROI), it's contingent on a rock-hard Brexit bringing people around to the idea http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/sharp-rise-in-support-for-united-ireland-survey-reveals-1.2784882 Nevertheless, anecdotes like below are becoming more and more common and certainly point in that direction crispix posted:If there were a border poll held this year I would vote for Irish reunification. I was nominally unionist all my life but the certainty and security that made the union appealing evaporated last summer and we are now tied to a maniac country riding a bomb. :/ Then, on the other hand kustomkarkommando posted:Eh, I wouldn't underestimate the resilience of Unionism as a political force and a lot of that plan entails an active drive from FG for reunification which seems a bit unreliable - if its FF I could buy it but their brand of rhetoric is more traditional wouldn't do much to galvanize traditional unionist support for a united Ireland I agree with these points completely. The drive from the South will also depend on what sort of inroads SF make if/when the current minority Dail collapses
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Feb 2, 2017 13:18
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WeAreTheRomans posted:As I see it, it hinges on (i) a new Scottish referendum galvanising public opinion, while Tories simultaneously cut funding to NI or otherwise impact the public sector. (ii) Enda Kenny's replacement (probably Leo Varadkar) being able to broker some sort of compromise arrangement with the EU, where we take on NI and avoid the border conflict in exchange for structural funding over a period of years to regenerate NI as a haven for fleeing British financial services. This could take the form of forgiveness of a certain proportion of ROI sovereign debt to the Troika
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Feb 2, 2017 13:20
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Pissflaps posted:Has the EU ever before entered into such horse trading? It just doesn't seem to be something it does? jBrereton fucked around with this message at 13:25 on Feb 2, 2017 |
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Feb 2, 2017 13:21
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Pissflaps posted:Only from Wikipedia but Article 3 was amended to be a lot more vague: quote:It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions, recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people There's no constitutional proscription to actively seek consent for reunification and the vague language defining a united Ireland as one where all people are united (with no reference to national territory) is wide open to interpretation kustomkarkommando fucked around with this message at 13:28 on Feb 2, 2017 |
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Feb 2, 2017 13:22
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Pissflaps posted:That's interesting I always assumed they'd be for it tbh.
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Feb 2, 2017 13:22
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I don't understand why the EU would be motivated to steep itself in British/Irish/Scottish politics to keep borders open or shut when it can just let the already complex process of Brexit unwind and. It seems like pie in the sky thinking - especially so for Scotland where some nationalists seek to think the EU's prime concern is keeping them in the EU.
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Feb 2, 2017 13:24
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Pissflaps posted:I don't understand why the EU would be motivated to steep itself in British/Irish/Scottish politics to keep borders open or shut when it can just let the already complex process of Brexit unwind and.
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Feb 2, 2017 13:26
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Pissflaps posted:I don't understand why the EU would be motivated to steep itself in British/Irish/Scottish politics to keep borders open or shut when it can just let the already complex process of Brexit unwind and. I don't see this happening contemporaneously with Brexit by the way, but afterwards, as a hard border erodes the GFA and NI peacekeeping, and the British economy is flushed down the toilet and deprioiritizes its support of NI sinecures.
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Feb 2, 2017 13:26
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Pissflaps posted:It seems like pie in the sky thinking - especially so for Scotland where some nationalists seek to think the EU's prime concern is keeping them in the EU. I support Scottish Independence, but honestly the belief that the EU would let us in doesn't really convince me particularly when there are countries with vested interests in not setting a precedent for letting separatist movements to be recognised. I can't see anyway Spain would go for it for example.
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Feb 2, 2017 13:28
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Personally I believe pragmatism will win out in many cases and most of the heart stopping stuff we see about hard borders and tariffs and membership of things like Euratom will ultimately be resolved to the half satisfaction and mild detriment of all.
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Feb 2, 2017 13:29
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Pissflaps posted:That's interesting I always assumed they'd be for it tbh. I think they know it would be a bit of an economic millstone around their necks.
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Feb 2, 2017 13:30
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LemonDrizzle posted:Paul Nuttall may be going to pokey: 
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Feb 2, 2017 13:30
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Skinty McEdger posted:I support Scottish Independence, but honestly the belief that the EU would let us in doesn't really convince me particularly when there are countries with vested interests in not setting a precedent for letting separatist movements to be recognised. I can't see anyway Spain would go for it for example. I don't support Scottish independence but I think an independent Scotland would have no problem becoming an EU member state. I do however think it would take longer than the 18 months stated in the white paper, and Scotland would be worse off as a result.
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Feb 2, 2017 13:31
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learnincurve posted:I think that's what people living and working in London want. I live in the North and what people really want here, is the government to subsidise train ticket prices down to London so we can access all those lovely free museums and galleries, and most crucially, to build council houses. The brexit vote was used by a lot of people to send a message that we are unhappy with the housing situation, and with the full knowledge that Brexit will gently caress London but that it can't get any worse for people stuck living in high unemployment low wage areas with a high street full of charity shops and American owned coffee shops. If people wanted more houses built the way to do it was probably by lobbying local government and by supporting MPs or parties who support more houses being built. Voting to leave the EU, which has precisely nothing to do with how many houses get built, is like trying to fix a leaky tap by ordering a new television: utterly unrelated to the problem and therefore totally insane.
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Feb 2, 2017 13:37
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El Pollo Blanco posted:Unfortunately, the concept of government interfering in the housing market is terrifying to both the left and right political parties because the only people who vote are homeowners, apparently. - Banning local authorities from borrowing to build council houses, with the borrowing secured against future rents. This is how council house-building was financed for decades but it's been illegal since the 1980s - Failing to reform the planning system, which is a huge interferece in the housing market because it says there are large tracts of the country upon which you can't build houses no matter how severe the demand is - Things like Help to Buy and LISAs and shared-ownership schemes, all of which literally and directly spend tax revenue to prop up house prices. The trick is the government only inteferes if it will raise prices. It has no interest in lowering them, because homeowners vote.
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Feb 2, 2017 13:38
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Pissflaps posted:Personally I believe pragmatism will win out in many cases and most of the heart stopping stuff we see about hard borders and tariffs and membership of things like Euratom will ultimately be resolved to the half satisfaction and mild detriment of all. You could just as easily have applied this kind of "nothing ever happens" logical approach to the very idea of Brexit. One might have thought the path of least resistance would have been some special concessions being made in return for Britain not throwing all its toys out of the European pram, but welp here we are
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Feb 2, 2017 13:38
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How can the loving Northern Ireland Affairs Committee be so loving clueless about something that's utterly obvious to anyone with a brain cell and who's been paying attention to British history for the past few decades I mean gently caress me how is it news that there will need to be border controls between the EU and the UK when the UK leaves the EU.
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Feb 2, 2017 13:41
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Zephro posted:Unfortunately this isn't the message that was heard, the message that was heard was apparently "kick all the foreigners out, ditch our biggest trading partner, and lube up so we can sell the NHS to The Great Orange Baboon". The idea of leaving was to force out the foreigners living in currently existing homes, and to stop immigrants from taking/buying them up, not to build new ones.
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Feb 2, 2017 13:42
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I can't get enough of are Dan
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Skinty McEdger posted:I support Scottish Independence, but honestly the belief that the EU would let us in doesn't really convince me particularly when there are countries with vested interests in not setting a precedent for letting separatist movements to be recognised. I can't see anyway Spain would go for it for example. Worth looking at Rajoy's comments a bit closer (via The National) quote:Rajoy said quite categorically that if the UK leaves the EU, then Scotland leaves with it. He has ruled out any possibility of Scotland managing to remain a part of the EU while also remaining a part of the UK. He also said that the EU cannot enter negotiations with a part of a state so that it can remain within the EU even though the state it is a part of has just voted to leave. But Rajoy said nothing at all about the European status of an independent Scotland. Spain's position seems to be opposition to non constitutionally-mandated secession only
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Feb 2, 2017 13:46
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White paper on Brexit is out: https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/827135357544169475
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Feb 2, 2017 13:46
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Pissflaps posted:That's interesting I always assumed they'd be for it tbh. On this timeline, it will probably happen, but there will be a Dublin-based terrorist movement trying to reverse unification.
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Feb 2, 2017 13:47
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Zephro posted:How can the loving Northern Ireland Affairs Committee be so loving clueless about something that's utterly obvious to anyone with a brain cell and who's been paying attention to British history for the past few decades Magical thinking, plus Theresa May outright lying to the public, and some people going along with that for the sake of political expedience
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Feb 2, 2017 13:48
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Zephro posted:This isn't true. The government repeatedly interferes in the housing market by: I am not from the UK, and I didn't know this, but jesus christ that's depressing. Which I suppose is to be expected of Britain in the 80s.
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Feb 2, 2017 13:52
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Zephro posted:How can the loving Northern Ireland Affairs Committee be so loving clueless about something that's utterly obvious to anyone with a brain cell and who's been paying attention to British history for the past few decades
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Feb 2, 2017 13:51
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Zephro posted:This isn't true. The government repeatedly interferes in the housing market by: At the moment, if you want to build pretty much anything, you can do it, and if a local government says no, as soon as you threaten to take them to court expensively they pretty much have to cave unless it is provably in the best interests of tax payers to fight the case with an assumption the council will win (which is very seldom forthcoming). Council planning offices take the loving piss when it comes to your average person wanting to put a conservatory up, but if you have the money to build 200 houses you can build your 200 houses.
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Feb 2, 2017 13:55
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El Pollo Blanco posted:I am not from the UK, and I didn't know this, but jesus christ that's depressing. Which I suppose is to be expected of Britain in the 80s.
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Feb 2, 2017 13:56
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I'll probably grab the graphs/charts from the White Paper as they're the easiest to digest. Here's the immigration one for starters, since it's immediately relevant:
HJB fucked around with this message at 14:09 on Feb 2, 2017 |
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Feb 2, 2017 13:56
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jBrereton posted:The fuckin planning system is not a barrier to building houses, that is a MASSIVE lie the building firms love to perpetuate.
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Feb 2, 2017 13:58
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