|
Wiz posted:Allow me to explain the biggest problem with something like peaceful annexation of planets through culture: Everyone loves it when they're the one getting planets flipped to them... but when it's the other way around? Yeah, no, not so much. This honestly only ever seemed like a mechanic that existed in the Civ and GalCiv gemes that existed for the player to exploit the AI with - if it was happening to you then you were probably doing something wrong. That said, projecting borders and influence on this game is finikey enough as it is. I don't think it needs more random, impossible to predict or react to, stuff tacked on to it.
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2017 20:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 23:51 |
|
|
Wiz posted:Allow me to explain the biggest problem with something like peaceful annexation of planets through culture: Everyone loves it when they're the one getting planets flipped to them... but when it's the other way around? Yeah, no, not so much. I think this statement is true on it's own. If we look at the requests for the peaceful annexation of planets through culture as "I want empires to be able to influence each other and have reasons to go to war" then I think it makes more sense. Like, in a typical 4x like Civ it's annoying to have culture flipping. In Stellaris, the peaceful hippy utopia is supposed to be available for a species going that route. Presumably other species would be willing to join that, so their way of expanding would be flipping planets over. And then you could have them guaranteed by neighbors so that if you try to declare on them you gotta deal with that, similar to EU4's block alliances. Then it would be cool to have techs that limit enemy influence and various different empires reacting to that. It feels like there should be a conflict of ideologies going on at all times. The warmongers want to conquer. The spiritualists want to ascend. The utopians want to bring everyone into the hugbox. The cyborgs want to assimilate everyone. If there was some way that peaceful dudes could be a threat, that would make them interesting. If culture flipping isn't it that's fine, but it would still be cool if even 'xenophile' 'pacifist' empires represented a serious threat. If Stellaris is willing to have big enemies in the form of Fallen Empires and Crises, I think it also makes sense to deal with enemies that can brainwash / convert your planets. Sword of the Stars, even as a really tactical 4x, included this element to great success. I think the asymmetry between the factions and their abilities to gently caress with each other was a large part of the fun.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2017 20:34
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:But as long as you build what, 2 or 3 research buildings on each planet you come out ahead no? Yes. The first level techs all have around a 360 cost. If you add one additional planet with 15 pops on it, that's +10% for the planet and +15% for the pops, or +25%, so now it costs 90 more, for 450. So you need to make up the 90 research points over the time you would normally have used to research the tech. Let's be generous and say you've added enough research labs that you're getting 10 relevant research points per month (again, early game). So you'll take 36 months to research that tech without the extra planet at a 360 cost. With the extra planet, to research in 36 months you need 12.5 relevant rps a month. So yes, 2 or 3 research labs to break even.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2017 20:34
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:No one likes getting their planets invaded either, but it happens. It should be a thing that only happens with a huge big attractive empire versus some tiny little poo poo country with no chance. If you're already in that position as a player you've lost anyways. People are a lot less willing to accept losing planets when they didn't have a chance to fight back. It's the same with say losing territory through espionage/sabotage, things that you can only fight back against 'indirectly' tend to be very frustrating when they have a large impact on the player's experience.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2017 20:35
|
|
|
Psychotic Weasel posted:This honestly only ever seemed like a mechanic that existed in the Civ and GalCiv gemes that existed for the player to exploit the AI with - if it was happening to you then you were probably doing something wrong. Yeah, basically. It only works as long as the AI is incompetent at it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2017 20:36
|
|
|
Wiz posted:People are a lot less willing to accept losing planets when they didn't have a chance to fight back. It's the same with say losing territory through espionage/sabotage, things that you can only fight back against 'indirectly' tend to be very frustrating when they have a large impact on the player's experience. Again, I think this is all true in general. In SOTS, people did enjoy the virus warfare and the cloaked stuff. It required you to tech a certain way. If someone went missiles and you didn't research PD, that was a problem. Similarly, if you were researching PD and someone else went cloak + viruses, that was a problem. If you had a way to detect cloak and counter missiles but didn't have good weapons, you'd lose fleet fights. The multiple, competing requirements meant that the player was generally pressed for time, resources, and always had more things to research than they could. With Stellaris, when I hit the 5 planet limit, the game tends to slow down as if it just exited warp. I have nothing to worry about. I settled on habitable planets, my pops are growing, I have some space, and the conflict tends to stop. Once the empires around me have formed their alliances there's little shifting and it tends to turn into long wars for little gain. I believe a more dynamic space where empires were constantly setting up for the next conflict due to competing interests would be interesting. Having a planet converting empire on your borders that you had to deal with as a looming threat, if communicated to the player, would be something interesting to consider other than just colonize planets and fight stellar / ground wars. Ham Sandwiches fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Feb 2, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2017 20:39
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:No one likes getting their planets invaded either, but it happens. It should be a thing that only happens with a huge big attractive empire versus some tiny little poo poo country with no chance. If you're already in that position as a player you've lost anyways. The problem in a space 4x is, this would only work for aliens who are cool with other aliens, so you'd basically program in a feature which can only hurt xenophiles and their empires, while normal and xenophobic empires can mostly ignore it. I don't think it's good game design to make a core game mechanic that half the game can purposefully ignore. And going the other way would be going completely loony toons with logic and reason here, if it's that easy to convince an alien mind to accept your empire's culture so totally they're willing to just switch over, you can just delete all portraits except the human ones, because who are we kidding at that point?
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2017 20:41
|
|
|
Wiz posted:Allow me to explain the biggest problem with something like peaceful annexation of planets through culture: Everyone loves it when they're the one getting planets flipped to them... but when it's the other way around? Yeah, no, not so much. Just for me personally, that would be a big incentive to go to war to get my planets back. I don't like getting invaded either, but it is a driving force in the game.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2017 20:43
|
|
|
Wiz posted:Allow me to explain the biggest problem with something like peaceful annexation of planets through culture: Everyone loves it when they're the one getting planets flipped to them... but when it's the other way around? Yeah, no, not so much. You could use the faction system. If the neighbouring system has great happiness a faction that wants to make the planet change emipres emerges. If the faction is strong enough on a planet liberation only wars only empires can annex that specific planet. Edit: You could also make the pops on the planet happy about the annexation instead of upset. Office Sheep fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Feb 2, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2017 20:48
|
|
|
Office Sheep posted:You could use the faction system. If the neighbouring system has great happiness a faction that wants to make the planet change emipres emerges. If the faction is strong enough on a planet liberation only wars only empires can annex that specific planet. Yes, that is a fine enough idea, or the planet rebelling and defecting if the rebellion isn't put down. The planet defecting because you built a galactic rock concert stage though, ehh....
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2017 20:58
|
|
|
Coolguye posted:peaceful vassalization basically does not happen. let the truce expire and then kick their sandcastle over. That's what I was afraid of. I'm playing the UN, and I was thinking liberating then vassalizing then integrating would be the most "peaceful" way to eat up small, weak empires - especially given the problems with the federation system right now. Outright conquering then releasing as a vassal just doesn't feel right.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2017 20:58
|
|
|
Some sort of passive "culture points" thing that magically flips planets is not fun. Some sort of cultural/ethos pressure system that unlocks cool influence actions that help you establish spheres of influence, fund separatists, change the official ethos of a neighbour, and vassalize lesser powers would be cool. Here's a possible situation/example. You're a huge powerful pacifist materialist country stuck in a corner. You have some neighbours that like you and some neighbours that don't. You are able to allocate some sort of resource/spending towards various actions with other powers. You see the xenophobic materialists next to you have a 20% minority of pacifists, you give foreign aid to this group which boosts its attractiveness and power within the foreign empire (and gives them a CB against you and relations hit when/if discovered) and you hope it could lead to a shift towards pacifism in that empire over time. Your other neighbour is a xenophile pacifist, you have a non-aggression pact with them, you like each other. They normally wouldn't agree to be vassalized but you expend *something* at winning over their population and government towards supporting becoming a vassal, or a new "sphere of influence" system. Or get them to join something like a federation but with your leadership mostly assured. Your neighbour conquered some other aliens and they have mis-matched ethos, in fact the oppressed aliens have ethos similar to yours. You expend your *something* points to help their independence faction, maybe even offer them direct support if they were to ever rebel. In exchange if they do become independent they'll love you for it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2017 21:02
|
|
|
The Bramble posted:That's what I was afraid of. I'm playing the UN, and I was thinking liberating then vassalizing then integrating would be the most "peaceful" way to eat up small, weak empires - especially given the problems with the federation system right now. Outright conquering then releasing as a vassal just doesn't feel right. you can set 'establish vassal' as a war goal, which is effectively the same thing the irl un does when they pop in on peacekeeping missions. you will leave the government of the conquered territory intact but politically screw them over so bad they have to ask you daddy please for everything.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2017 21:09
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:Some sort of passive "culture points" thing that magically flips planets is not fun. Yeah, I agree with this. That's the fun stuff to play around with. The differing ethos should have differing goals they are pushing towards, and ways that they represent a threat to you. In SOTS each neighbor represents a unique threat that you will have to deal with in a different way. In Stellaris that really doesn't happen, and it would be cool to see more ways to fight for territory and pops. I also think the war system could be loosened up a bit. I really get the sense that the Stellaris world is defined by skirmishes and little battles all over the place. Some fleet running into some menace, some unencountered race seeming hostile. SOTS did a better job of representing this with the encounter events you tended to get in the first 50 or so turns. You've got a ship meeting another ship and you really aren't sure how it's going to go. Stellaris has a different feel, wars are large scale endeavors and offer little meaningful gain. I really wonder how and why it would be harmful to roll back the long truces, the alliance systems etc that are hallmarks of Paradox games. Not to encourage 4x style total war, but to allow skirmishes, battles, and low grade conflicts all across the galaxy. Like the equivalent of privateering, I'd love to be able to send some cloaked ships to gently caress with my neighbor while pretending I have no idea what's going on. Or to try to mind control my neighbor's pops. Or to engineer a bio plague that just targets his dudes and covertly spread it to his planets.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2017 21:12
|
|
|
Wiz posted:Allow me to explain the biggest problem with something like peaceful annexation of planets through culture: Everyone loves it when they're the one getting planets flipped to them... but when it's the other way around? Yeah, no, not so much. Yeah, having what's essentially a culture output meter that flatly determines whether a planet belongs to ____ empire or _____ nation like in Gal Civ would be kind of a pain to deal with. Ditto with someone building a galactic rock stage or hyper-entertainment complex or whatever. That's just shifting the culture meter issue over to a more abstract level without considering the actual populations of the planet in question. I do like some of the ethos related ideas that IP introduces however. IP isn't perfect by any means but a few of the featured mods within it have some neat takes on the idea of a "culture war". It keeps the galaxy fresh and opens up opportunities to expand your influence beyond warfare as the game goes on and populations start migrating around. As it is in vanilla ethics seem to mostly be important on the population end to determine happiness and productivity. Actually having them organize and try to change things within the government (and even change the government if they're radically different) is a neat idea. Without some way to have political refugees fleeing a country or having activist pops that try to change things I don't see how it'd be too balanced in its current format, however. Otherwise without the ability to migrate they'd just hang around forever and gently caress things up until they were purged, got their way, or had their ethics altered. Having an expanded policy section and factoring in ethics to a planet/population's loyalty could also mean that some factions are focused around policy changes too. IE: If you had a major spiritualist/religious group within your empire that was also xenophobic they might agitate to ban ____ race or synthetics from core worlds or something similar. Or as another example a pro-capitalist/materialist group agitating for free trade and a lack of tariffs once an interplanetary trade system via ships and the like is in. Stuff that'd expand on the existing independence/slavery factions. It'd also open up an opportunity for a new method of conflict outside of the warfare and the current diplomacy system. Though I guess that's a whole other bag of issues. Archonex fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Feb 2, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2017 21:51
|
|
|
Wait, you can release planets/systems as vassals? How did I miss this.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2017 22:00
|
|
|
GunnerJ posted:Wait, you can release planets/systems as vassals? How did I miss this. If they have a faction agitating for independence you can grant it through the faction window. Releasing them doesn't seem to be that beneficial a lot of the time though. If there's a faction agitating for independence it probably means they don't get along well enough with your empire yet to not be disloyal. Though maybe other people have had different experiences? Archonex fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Feb 2, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2017 22:02
|
|
|
Archonex posted:If they have a faction agitating for independence you can grant it through the faction window. vassals build up a trust meter as they continue to be ruled by you, which over time will stabilize the relationship. the way you smooth over the disloyal period is to gift them 5-10 minerals per month for 10 years, which basically gives them a 'favorable trade deal' relationship bonus and keeps them quiet. even as a xenophobic overlord i've pacified many vassals this way.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2017 22:16
|
|
|
Wiz posted:People are a lot less willing to accept losing planets when they didn't have a chance to fight back. It's the same with say losing territory through espionage/sabotage, things that you can only fight back against 'indirectly' tend to be very frustrating when they have a large impact on the player's experience. e:Oh wait I missed this. Office Sheep posted:You could use the faction system. If the neighbouring system has great happiness a faction that wants to make the planet change emipres emerges. If the faction is strong enough on a planet liberation only wars only empires can annex that specific planet. Wiz posted:Yes, that is a fine enough idea, or the planet rebelling and defecting if the rebellion isn't put down. The planet defecting because you built a galactic rock concert stage though, ehh.... Also let me fund enemy factions to increase their influence please. Splicer fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Feb 2, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2017 22:19
|
|
|
Wiz posted:Yes, that is a fine enough idea, or the planet rebelling and defecting if the rebellion isn't put down. The planet defecting because you built a galactic rock concert stage though, ehh.... While I'm sure you're working on other fixes to this, having some form of cultural imperialism would stir up the mid/late game when things start to stagnate. Cultural pressure putting your worlds at risk of flipping (though hopefully through a more involved mechanic than the Civ4 style) could be an impetus to go to war (both for the player and for the AI). The game currently frequently reaches a point where you sit there with not a lot happening, and adding this means of interaction could go a long way to addressing that.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2017 22:55
|
|
|
Majestic posted:While I'm sure you're working on other fixes to this, having some form of cultural imperialism would stir up the mid/late game when things start to stagnate. Cultural pressure putting your worlds at risk of flipping (though hopefully through a more involved mechanic than the Civ4 style) could be an impetus to go to war (both for the player and for the AI). The game currently frequently reaches a point where you sit there with not a lot happening, and adding this means of interaction could go a long way to addressing that. I wonder what would happen if the stakes were a bit lower than flipping planets over. Like, you have a cultural influence and if a planet that isn't your becomes swayed by it you get a portion of their energy and research output. Sovereignty isn't threatened unless something much more dramatic goes on.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2017 23:02
|
|
|
 I have discovered cloning. Somehow. Every time I split a fleet my admirals are multiplying and bugging out, they've become everywhere and also apparently nowhere. Any way to fix it? Slickdrac fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Feb 2, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2017 23:06
|
|
|
Yeah that's been a known bug for quite some time.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2017 23:09
|
|
|
so i'm considering making a run at "suffer not the alien" and i have a couple of questions from fuckery i know happened with that stuff a while back: 1) how do robotic pops interact with this? i distinctly remember synths being a huge problem for xenophobic empires, even if they were also materialist, because the constructed synths would have "alien overlords" even when given full citizenship rights. materialist pops have no problem with them though. do synths count as another race for the purposes of this achievement? 2) how do gene-mods of your host species interact with this? i would fully plan on making sub-races of my host race for each individual atmosphere type because gently caress terraforming. do they interfere with the achievement or cause huge happiness maluses? e: wiz if you know i'd happily take an answer from you, these are specific enough that googling around is generally not helping me with current information. the only people who asked did so back near release. Coolguye fucked around with this message at 01:20 on Feb 3, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2017 23:44
|
|
|
Wanting a CIV style influence system is a bad opinion and you should feel bad. All that stuff should tie to pop ethics. Once Stellaris gets a trade system this can increase pop divergence. Then you can get support rebels to have them change the government/ split off and be made into a client state.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2017 23:49
|
|
|
I have been using the civilian trade mod, and got into a war to annex some planets from a neighbor. Made some mistakes but managed to build a fleet to overwhelm their fleet and starbase. They surrendered and the planets were ceded...to the traders. That was awkward. Now I need to load an older save and make sure that I don't accidentally set those war goals to the trader civilisation. These previews make me more excited for the DLC and 1.5...
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2017 00:09
|
|
|
I've been super inactive since writing the OP, sorry, works been super busy. Anything that desperately needs adding to the OP? Oh and AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA EXPANSIOOOOOOOOOON
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2017 00:50
|
|
|
Wiz posted:Yes, that is a fine enough idea, or the planet rebelling and defecting if the rebellion isn't put down. The planet defecting because you built a galactic rock concert stage though, ehh.... What about Star Ruler 2's diplomatic currency? That gave culture empires real teeth while still letting the military focused ones kick their doors open if they overdid it with the annexations.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2017 00:58
|
|
|
Wiz posted:The planet defecting because you built a galactic rock concert stage though, ehh.... Wasn't that how one of those spaceship animes ended?
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2017 01:01
|
|
|
King Doom posted:Wasn't that how one of those spaceship animes ended? I'LL HAVE YOU KNOW MACROSS 7 IS A MASTERPIECE OF ANIMATION AND FURTHERMORE
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2017 01:02
|
|
|
hey is there a way to tell how much border a frontier station will put out? im getting anoyed with seing a nice group a systems, building a station and having it only cover like 2 systems with everything else juuuuuust out side it. iv done this enough to manipulate things slightly (i think borders will actually go farther than normal to make a continous one), but a basic "heres the radious with your tech factored in" dotted outline would be nice.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2017 01:05
|
|
|
For those of you who missed the stream because you work normal business hours (ie. you work when America works) you can catch the repeat on the Paradox Twitch channel: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/119136373 Doesn't look like it's on their YouTube channel yet though. Maybe by sometime tomorrow?
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2017 01:12
|
|
|
Clearly, we need diplomatic marriages and personal unions.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2017 01:16
|
|
|
Bholder posted:Clearly, we need diplomatic marriages and personal unions. brb gonna make that a game Also holy smokes someone's done a pack for Legend of the Galactic Heroes in japanese 
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2017 01:56
|
|
|
Deceitful Penguin posted:Huh. I cannot believe there isn't a modrace pack with all the countries It's in english too, if the front page from earlier today is any indication. The UNSC ship pack from Halo is the best though.  It's even NSC compatible. The detail on it is nuts. I especially like all the little things in the pack, like the fact that later tier ships are more ships built around gigantic gently caress off guns A-10 Warthog style rather than just being guns attached to ships. Archonex fucked around with this message at 08:14 on Feb 3, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2017 02:07
|
|
|
It would only make me depressed that I could never be my heart waifu Yang Wen-li or Captain Tylor, for that matter. Now there's a climactic battle that will never be in a videogame 
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2017 02:11
|
|
|
Bholder posted:Clearly, we need diplomatic marriages and personal unions. I'm sure that carnivorous species would appreciate a free lunch.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2017 03:21
|
|
|
Sperglord Firecock posted:I'LL HAVE YOU KNOW MACROSS 7 IS A MASTERPIECE OF ANIMATION AND FURTHERMORE Looks like someone does not believe in love. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2017 03:25
|
|
|
DatonKallandor posted:What about Star Ruler 2's diplomatic currency? That gave culture empires real teeth while still letting the military focused ones kick their doors open if they overdid it with the annexations. StarRuler 2 deserved a vastly better reception than it got, and the diplomacy system is one that should just become the standard in 4Xs. It's as revolutionary and brilliant a concept as the ones that created the genre in the first place, in my reckoning. e; I am loving ready for this expansion.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2017 04:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 23:51 |
|
|
I really wanted to get into star ruler but it seemed 99% focused to be a micro-heavy RTS with a 4x sort of there on the side as a thing you minmax to build/bigger more ships.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2017 04:56
|
|