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It's bad because people are bad with money and stuff like this doesn't help
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Feb 3, 2017 22:39
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Captain Invictus posted:Why does it suck though, since it does not affect the gameplay in any way? That's what has always weirded me out about the argument against purely cosmetic loot crates. You WANT, you don't NEED the cosmetics in there, and no doubt they would never exist otherwise. Having an option to buy them gives those who really, REALLY want some specific set or item to pay for them directly(in cases like dota or overwatch with in-order loot box loot), or often just let you pay for the skin directly. You can not buy the skins in Overwatch with real money you can only gamble for them which is rotten.
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Feb 3, 2017 22:40
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Its worse that you offer a monetary exchange but not an exact one, since it preys on the people who really want a specific item and you get 20 dollars out of them instead of the 2 or 3 the skin is actually worth.
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Feb 3, 2017 22:43
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I mean you can buy skins with credits e: I think the only really scummy thing overwatch ever did was the first event (the olympics one) where you could only get the olympic skins from rio loot boxes during the event and you couldn't buy any of them with credits Help Im Alive fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Feb 3, 2017 |
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Feb 3, 2017 22:43
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Ah, I don't play overwatch so I didn't know there wasn't a direct purchase option. TF2 has that but it's kinda fucky with the prices, though the steam marketplace allows for a ton of stuff to be had for pennies and for a lot of other games too.
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Feb 3, 2017 22:45
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Help Im Alive posted:I mean you can buy skins with credits Sure, but you only get credits randomly from loot crates and usually in small amounts at a time. If you could just outright buy credits you could bypass the loot crate system, but Blizzard clearly knows they're going to make more money on loot crate gambling than they would if they let people directly buy what they wanted.
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Feb 3, 2017 22:45
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Also I feel like its inevitable that eventually Overwatch is going to go free to play with an in-game auction house thing so all those event specific skins can get swapped for exorbitant sums and Blizz will skim some moolah off the top.
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Feb 3, 2017 22:45
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Help Im Alive posted:I mean you can buy skins with credits You cannot buy credits, though, you just slowly amass them whenever you get especially bad loot box pulls. It's a consolation prize, and it doesn't really bypass the gambling.
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Feb 3, 2017 22:46
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In Training posted:Also I feel like its inevitable that eventually Overwatch is going to go free to play with an in-game auction house thing so all those event specific skins can get swapped for exorbitant sums and Blizz will skim some moolah off the top. blizzard hosed up making all the characters look pretty cool though. they should have gone capcom route and made everyone really loving ugly so you gotta buy the skins like akuma in sfv
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Feb 3, 2017 22:48
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Real hurthling! posted:blizzard hosed up making all the characters look pretty cool though. they should have gone capcom route and made everyone really loving ugly so you gotta buy the skins like akuma in sfv Yeah lol. ANd charge insane dollars for skins that no sane person would actually pay for
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Feb 3, 2017 22:50
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Captain Invictus posted:Why does it suck though, since it does not affect the gameplay in any way? That's what has always weirded me out about the argument against purely cosmetic loot crates. You WANT, you don't NEED the cosmetics in there, and no doubt they would never exist otherwise. Having an option to buy them gives those who really, REALLY want some specific set or item to pay for them directly(in cases like dota or overwatch with in-order loot box loot), or often just let you pay for the skin directly. Even setting aside the "give corporations an inch and they'll take a mile" reason, it's a system that is purely anticonsumer, like intermediate currencies. Saying it's loot boxes or nothing at all isn't correct. The correct comparison is loot boxes vs just buying the thing. The former is worse for the consumer in essentially every case. Whether it's gameplay or balance affecting is entirely irrelevant. Making loot crates affect gameplay is just worse. This is also not even touching on the compromises it pushes on the game's design.
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Feb 3, 2017 22:50
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Yes, that was before I knew overwatch didn't let you buy skins directly. I'm more familiar with steam stuff which generally does let you, in addition to loot boxes.
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Feb 3, 2017 22:51
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Dr Cheeto posted:You cannot buy credits, though, you just slowly amass them whenever you get especially bad loot box pulls. It's a consolation prize, and it doesn't really bypass the gambling. Offering consolations is a pretty classic way to keep people gambling even when they lose.
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Feb 3, 2017 22:53
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devtesla posted:Offering consolations is a pretty classic way to keep people gambling even when they lose. Yeah it's like when you're at the casino and you've lost $500 at the blackjack table but you've gotten enough points on your club card for a FREE orange chicken dish from the kitchen. Welp no reason to go home when I've got FREE grub delivered to the table! Deal me back in!
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Feb 3, 2017 22:54
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As for the "it's only cosmetic" thing, I'm inclined to agree with Jim Sterling's argument, which starts around here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWTsJZD3YFQ&t=213s In short, though, his point is that Overwatch's loot crate system very closely follows a free-to-play model intended to sort of psychologically press you into spending money. It does this by making it take a very long time to unlock things through normal gameplay, showing you all the cool things you could have if you were lucky enough to get them, and stuffing the loot tables with crappy sprays and voice lines. Then it also lets you turn up duplicates of things you already have and gives you a tiny amount of credits for them, so you can't even take comfort in knowing that you're getting all those sprays out of the way--they can just turn up again. And on top of all of that, this is in a game that you've already paid money to play, so you're getting hit with this manipulative microtransaction system on top of paying full price for the game. And yes, it's all 100% cosmetic, but I'm convinced by Sterling's argument that cosmetic content is still part of the game experience, especially when it's the only progression mechanic the game has. Cosmetics matter, people care about cosmetics, so while cosmetic-only microtransactions are definitely better than gameplay-affecting microtransactions, they're still lovely in full-priced commercial game.
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Feb 3, 2017 22:56
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Since this argument is largely about Overwatch I'm going to assume that people are far and away more hat-crazy there than it ever was with tf2/csgo/dota, and the lack of a trading system(unless they added one) just compounds the frustration of not getting the skin you like alongside the bad crate system they have.
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Feb 3, 2017 23:00
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Harrow posted:As for the "it's only cosmetic" thing, I'm inclined to agree with Jim Sterling's argument, which starts around here: You seriously get a ton of lootboxes now with the arcade mode though I caved in and bought lootboxes a couple times early on when levelling up was the only way to get them (maybe like $15 total) but at this point you can easily get a lootbox every time you play
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Feb 3, 2017 23:00
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No, overwatch loot boxes are given to you for free. The contents in the box do not impact the actual gameplay in any way, and for the people who do purchase them, allows the game to continue churning out free content patches. I'm totally 100% fine with how they have monetized overwatch. But I'm the type of person who isn't a compulsive hoarder or base my self-esteem on game completion percentages. In order to compare overwatch to a gacha game, you are looking at getting a Reinheart*2 that doesn't have shield barrier unlocked or a 4* Ana who is missing nanoboost. That would be admittedly a terrible game that I would hate.
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Feb 3, 2017 23:01
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Overwatch needs something like the old "NoHat" mod* in DOTA2 Don't even know if that still works though, Valve may have killed it lol. *The "NoHat" mod made it so that regardless of whatever items people had equipped they would always appear as the default model/ward/courier to you.
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Feb 3, 2017 23:02
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f1av0r posted:No, overwatch loot boxes are given to you for free. The contents in the box do not impact the actual gameplay in any way, and for the people who do purchase them, allows the game to continue churning out free content patches. I'm totally 100% fine with how they have monetized overwatch. But I'm the type of person who isn't a compulsive hoarder or base my self-esteem on game completion percentages. Please don't defend anticonsumer practices. Also loot boxes don't "allow" blizzard to do poo poo.
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Feb 3, 2017 23:03
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f1av0r posted:The contents in the box do not impact the actual gameplay in any way, It doesn't matter. They are still an important part of the game, its economy, and its marketing. You have no choice but to receive boxes even if you decide not to open them.
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Feb 3, 2017 23:04
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chumbler posted:Please don't defend anticonsumer practices. Just to be clear here, you're talking about Overwatch's method and not the dota/csgo/tf2 method, correct?
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Feb 3, 2017 23:04
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Gambling is actually bad no matter how many people talk about having self control.
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Feb 3, 2017 23:05
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What is this 'ethics' you speak of.
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Feb 3, 2017 23:04
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the only lootbox system i have gotten into is guilty gear fishing. also i'm really mad i don't have all the songs yet cause just as i was about to get the last couple they added hundreds of cool diorama figures to the pool those songs are really really good too
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Feb 3, 2017 23:04
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Also Activision-Blizzard is a multibillion dollar corporation, they could support Overwatch from the tens of millions of people who bought it.
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Feb 3, 2017 23:04
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Real hurthling! posted:the only lootbox system i have gotten into is guilty gear fishing. also i'm really mad i don't have all the songs yet cause just as i was about to get the last couple they added hundreds of cool diorama figures to the pool Guilty Gear fishing is awesome
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Feb 3, 2017 23:05
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Captain Invictus posted:Just to be clear here, you're talking about Overwatch's method and not the dota/csgo/tf2 method, correct? Loot boxes are anticonsumer period. Some are just even more so.
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Feb 3, 2017 23:05
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TF2 HAT MINING RIG posted:Gambling is actually bad no matter how many people talk about having self control. I like going to the casino to play craps but that's mostly a) I know what the good bets are, b) it's fun to play with a bunch of people, and c) when a bunch of people are surly jerks I play the Don't Pass/Don't Come bets to really make them cross 
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Feb 3, 2017 23:06
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In Training posted:Also Activision-Blizzard is a multibillion dollar corporation, they could support Overwatch from the tens of millions of people who bought it.  Radical!!!
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Feb 3, 2017 23:06
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I should point out that if Overwatch was free-to-play, I would have zero problem with it and none of the arguments I posted would apply to it. You gotta make your money somehow and if it's through cosmetics and not charging me for characters, I prefer that. But because I paid full price for it, I do have a problem with being pelted with free-to-play monetization schemes. And I'm not trying to compare Overwatch to a gacha game. Overwatch came up as an example because exquisite tea wanted to know what made gacha games worse, and the breakdown I posted of it illustrates just how much less lovely Overwatch is than any gacha game on the market. But I also still think loot crates are bad, they're stuffed with too much bullshit nobody wants, and the sheer amount of unwanted stuff combined with the total lack of duplicate drop protection means that I don't get excited about loot crates at all, which sucks because they are literally the only reward you get for leveling up. Help Im Alive posted:You seriously get a ton of lootboxes now with the arcade mode though I haven't played much Overwatch lately so I didn't know about arcade mode being a loot carnival. That helps a bit, for sure, but I still find microtransactions--even if they're just cosmetic--to be uncomfortable in a game that I already paid full price for. I spent a while defending Guild Wars 2 for this and, looking back, I was a total idiot about it, because GW2's cosmetic/convenience-only microtransaction shop essentially ruined the game for me (for reasons I won't go into unless someone actually cares about a dumb MMO).
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Feb 3, 2017 23:06
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chumbler posted:Please don't defend anticonsumer practices. Also loot boxes don't "allow" blizzard to do poo poo. I mean I'm telling you as a consumer, that I'm fine with it. I'm paying nothing past my initial 60$ dollars and getting free expansions/dlc content because people want to buy loot boxes. I'm okay with that
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Feb 3, 2017 23:06
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In Training posted:Guilty Gear fishing is awesome you can change the text it shows when you catch fish and i made mine "hoy there small fry" cause i like windwaker
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Feb 3, 2017 23:06
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Real hurthling! posted:you can change the text it shows when you catch fish and i made mine "hoy there small fry" cause i like windwaker Oh my god I didn't know this.
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Feb 3, 2017 23:08
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Real hurthling! posted:you can change the text it shows when you catch fish and i made mine "hoy there small fry" cause i like windwaker lol
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Feb 3, 2017 23:08
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Please stop calling it gambling, you can actually (no you won't) win money from gambling.
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Feb 3, 2017 23:08
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chumbler posted:Loot boxes are anticonsumer period. Some are just even more so.
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Feb 3, 2017 23:09
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I wish TF2 and DOTA had died a decade ago
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Feb 3, 2017 23:10
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Phantasium posted:Please stop calling it gambling, you can actually (no you won't) win money from gambling. My roommate was sick recently and had to stay home from work for like a week. Naturally he did a really smart thing and went to the casino to acquire rent money. Thank loving God he got a lucky streak or we'd have had a big issue for sure!!! But yeah lifetime he's like $12,000 down to them or something lol.
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Feb 3, 2017 23:11
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f1av0r posted:I mean I'm telling you as a consumer, that I'm fine with it. I'm paying nothing past my initial 60$ dollars and getting free expansions/dlc content because people want to buy loot boxes. I'm okay with that You can be fine with it all you like, that has zero relevance to the scheme being anticonsumer. And again, the loot box system is not supporting anything that could not be supported by a scheme that is better for the consumer.
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Feb 3, 2017 23:11
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