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spectralent posted:What's your solution? Seriously, come at me here. We lose if we say racism isn't part of the solution, okay, cool. What's the fix? Show me the game plan.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:08
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spectralent posted:What's your solution? Seriously, come at me here. We lose if we say racism isn't part of the solution, okay, cool. What's the fix? Show me the game plan. Start making a positive case for immigrants? Seriously, most of the problem is that the argument's premises have been ceded to the right. The baseline assumption is 'there is too much immigration', and the dispute is over how to deal with it.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:09
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Prince John posted:The bolded bit makes it sound like you're saying Labour are choosing a minority over a majority, but 75% of their constituencies voted to Leave. An overwhelming majority of Labour MPs have a constituency that wants some kind of Brexit. Their members hold different views on Europe on average, but they're not going to run off and vote UKIP at the next election. I can understand why the party is making GBS threads themselves about UKIP. They need to represent their voters, not the notional average voter in their constituency. So what if 90% of the tory voters in their constituency voted Leave, if you chase after them and forget the 80% of labour voters that voted for you voted Remain you will be loving hosed. Those Tory voters won't go for you in any circumstance while the government is implementing brexit, while the remainers will happily stop voting for you.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:10
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jBrereton posted:No I'm saying the solution is not racism at all it's creating a counternarrative about investment. You cannot say that racism is part of the solution when post-1997, immigration rose massively, and important people in the party say that's OK. It doesn't chime. See racist mugs versus racist mug votes. Then I'm not following you, because if the bad thing is that Corbyn said immigration is sustainable, surely the good thing is to suggest, as the racist right do, that immigration is actually a drain on society (through at best economic means, and at worst tainting cultural purity)?
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Feb 4, 2017 01:13
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spectralent posted:Then I'm not following you, because if the bad thing is that Corbyn said immigration is sustainable, surely the good thing is to suggest, as the racist right do, that immigration is actually a drain on society (through at best economic means, and at worst tainting cultural purity)? What I'm saying is that you cannot possibly argue for anti-immigrant measures when the leader of the party says it's fine. The loving dissonance is gigantic.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:14
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Fangz posted:They need to represent their voters, not the notional average voter in their constituency. So what if 90% of the tory voters in their constituency voted Leave, if you chase after them and forget the 80% of labour voters that voted for you voted Remain you will be loving hosed. Those Tory voters won't go for you in any circumstance while the government is implementing brexit, while the remainers will happily stop voting for you. a lot of labour members voted remain, a lot of labour voters voted leave. this isn't hard to grasp, it's also what makes Labour's situation - whoever is leading - really loving tricky at the moment.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:14
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JFairfax posted:a lot of labour members voted remain, a lot of labour voters voted leave. A lot more labour voters voted remain than leave. A whole bunch of tory voters voted remain also. This current crisis is a product of the labour leadership's total failure of coherence and self-confidence.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:16
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jBrereton posted:what the gently caress are you talking about lol It sounded like you're suggesting it's labour's failing (towards UKIP) to have their leader saying "Immigration's sustainable". Is that not the case?
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Feb 4, 2017 01:17
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Tories gently caress the country with a stupid loving referendum and it's labour that has to eat the poo poo sandwich they ordered, it's loving incredible.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:16
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JFairfax posted:a lot of labour members voted remain, a lot of labour voters voted leave. About 75% of labour voters voted Remain.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:17
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Fangz posted:A lot more labour voters voted remain than leave. Yeah, this is the big lie about "Labour lost the referendum". If the Tories had replicated Labour's performance we'd be in comfortably.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:18
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it was 63% of labour voters who voted remain, and how many former labour voters voted UKIP at the last election? also a lot of historical labour voters who recently switched to UKIP in the last general or two voted leave. the point is 30% / 40% that's still a significant proportion of labour voters who voted leave. it's a hard loving problem to reconcile.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:20
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JFairfax posted:also a lot of historical labour voters who recently switched to UKIP in the last general or two voted leave. These people aren't coming back to Jeremy Corbyn's Labour.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:22
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Do you honestly think Labour's current performance is going to win over Tory and UKIP Leave voters? Why the gently caress, as a Tory or UKIP leave voter, would you be convinced by Labour's weaksauce 'people's brexit' bullshit that literally everyone knows is just an act of political cowardice that most Labour MPs don't believe in?
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Feb 4, 2017 01:23
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The problem is that people are cherry picking facts and figures on imagration in order to present their own agenda to the public. . It's all "Look how many brown people who have come over here and don't bother to learn how speak OUR language and taking YOUR jobs Rah rah rabble rabble VOTE FOR US AND WE WILL SAVE YOU ignore all the Americans, Canadians and Australians here on visas it's ok white immigrants don't count "
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Feb 4, 2017 01:23
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Pissflaps posted:These people aren't coming back to Jeremy Corbyn's Labour. and they sure as gently caress ain't coming back to a pro-remain labour
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Feb 4, 2017 01:23
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TheRat posted:Lol Darth Walrus posted:Bloody autocorrect. Being fair he's using this to deflect from his advocacy of the Rapey Rapegang of Rapists Who Rape because it's easier to attack you for a typo than admit he's backed a horse that turns out to be four rapists in a costume.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:24
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spectralent posted:It sounded like you're suggesting it's labour's failing (towards UKIP) to have their leader saying "Immigration's sustainable". Is that not the case?
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Feb 4, 2017 01:25
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JFairfax posted:and they sure as gently caress ain't coming back to a pro-remain labour The labour voters that stayed labour voters sure as gently caress aren't going to stick around for pro Brexit Labour.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:25
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Pissflaps posted:The labour voters that stayed labour voters sure as gently caress aren't going to stick around for pro Brexit Labour. well this is the problem then isn't it, labour seemed to be damned if they do and damned if they don't. there is really no magical perfect way out of this that labour can waltz out of.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:25
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learnincurve posted:The problem is that people are cherry picking facts and figures on imagration in order to present their own agenda to the public. . It's all "Look how many brown people who have come over here and don't bother to learn how speak OUR language and taking YOUR jobs Rah rah rabble rabble VOTE FOR US AND WE WILL SAVE YOU ignore all the Americans, Canadians and Australians here on visas it's ok white immigrants don't count " And it's obviously fearmongering when people say this might actually happen to you too
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Feb 4, 2017 01:27
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JFairfax posted:well this is the problem then isn't it, labour seemed to be damned if they do and damned if they don't. You're right. Labour is hosed. Corbyn has hosed Brexit and hosed the Labour Party. Has Labour ever had a worse leader?
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Feb 4, 2017 01:27
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Pissflaps posted:The labour voters that stayed labour voters sure as gently caress aren't going to stick around for pro Brexit Labour. Yeah they are
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Feb 4, 2017 01:27
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I think it's infinitely easier to try and turn remain-voting tories or non-voters (while the other side is losing enthusiasm and turnout as dreams turn into reality), than try and pick up leave-voting tories and UKIPers while somehow still holding on to remainer Labour voters.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:27
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baka kaba posted:Yeah they are The polls suggest otherwise.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:28
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Pissflaps posted:You're right. Labour is hosed. this isn't the takeaway. how could any other leader manage this better? come out impotently trying to stop brexit? how will that play in the press? in the north? does it realistically have any chance of being successful? let's assume you're a charistmatic, popular labour leader Pissflaps, what would you do in this situation?
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Feb 4, 2017 01:28
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Pissflaps posted:The polls suggest otherwise. There are polls where 'voting intention: Labour' has 0% in support of Remain?
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Feb 4, 2017 01:29
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JFairfax posted:this isn't the takeaway. Just actually loving stand up for the thing you believe in. The press and the public like or hate all sorts of positions but they hate phoneys most of all. And they can smell a phoney a mile away on this.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:30
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JFairfax posted:let's assume you're a charistmatic, popular labour leader Pissflaps, what would you do in this situation? I would have stayed true to my principles and opposed Brexit at every opportunity.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:31
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Pissflaps posted:I would have stayed true to my principles and opposed Brexit at every opportunity. congrats u have just hosed the labour party and you hold no seats in the north of england
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Feb 4, 2017 01:31
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Pissflaps posted:You're right. Labour is hosed. Blair, Blair was worse.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:31
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baka kaba posted:There are polls where 'voting intention: Labour' has 0% in support of Remain? These are the polls where labour voters are deserting the party in droves.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:31
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Fangz posted:Just actually loving stand up for the thing you believe in. The press and the public like or hate all sorts of positions but they hate phoneys most of all. loving hell, through the brexit campaign corbyn was about the most real about all of this 'no the EU isn't perfect but it's better we stay in and try to reform it'.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:32
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JFairfax posted:congrats u have just hosed the labour party and you hold no seats in the north of england Actually I haven't and I do.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:33
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Fangz posted:Just actually loving stand up for the thing you believe in. The press and the public like or hate all sorts of positions but they hate phoneys most of all. That's so hilariously wrong. The press know that 99% of politicians are totally unprincipled. They only care about whether their position is one the owners of the press support. No one is ever going to get props for 'standing up for what they believe' if what they believe isn't right wing racism.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:34
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PST posted:Blair, Blair was worse. Yeah he did that winning election thing *shudders*
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Feb 4, 2017 01:34
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All the UKMT experts agreeing sagely that Corbyn is doing a Good Job while Labour floats around the toilet.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:35
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Tesseraction posted:Being fair he's using this to deflect from his advocacy of the Rapey Rapegang of Rapists Who Rape because it's easier to attack you for a typo than admit he's backed a horse that turns out to be four rapists in a costume. Sarcastic moralising from the threads most tedious leave-voter. What a time to be alive.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:35
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Pissflaps posted:These are the polls where labour voters are deserting the party in droves. Then surely the ones that are staying, if it's all about the Brexit, should be skewing heavily in support of Leave. But you keep posting polls showing the opposite, to show how out of touch the leadership is
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Feb 4, 2017 01:36
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Pissflaps posted:The polls suggest otherwise. Pissflaps, in Middlesbrough: 40,477 Votes to leave 21,181 Votes to remain 19,296 Leave Majority Tell me, how does labour appeal to voters in Middlesbrough by being pro-remain? http://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/update/2016-06-24/eu-referendum-middlesbrough-votes-to-leave-the-eu/
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Feb 4, 2017 01:37
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