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twistedmentat posted:So, does anyone think the Maquis was correct in their actions? I always felt they were being incredibly selfish, the Federation was willing to do pretty much anything to help the settlers relocate, but nope, they refused it, then got pissed off that the Cardassians treated them like poo poo. Nah, they were a bunch of shitheads. Trying to tie the whole thing to American Indian treaty breaking makes no sense in the context of what was going on. They basically expected the Fed to continue fighting a war for the sake of a few people's land at the expense of everyone else.
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Feb 4, 2017 21:28
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I'm surprised the Federation still allows people to colonize planets in situations like that. Maybe we don't see the decent colonies, but it seems like every group of colonists is a bunch of assholes who are trying to get into trouble. Whenever the federation shows up and says "Sorry, but this other race that we can't afford to go to war with says this is their planet. Your option is to get what you can and come with us or die," the colonists choose to die.
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Feb 4, 2017 21:32
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twistedmentat posted:So, does anyone think the Maquis was correct in their actions? I always felt they were being incredibly selfish, the Federation was willing to do pretty much anything to help the settlers relocate, but nope, they refused it, then got pissed off that the Cardassians treated them like poo poo. I think a big part of the problem is Trek has always been unwilling to explore any of the social problems that might actually exist in the Federation. These colonists definitely wanted to strike out on their own and get away from something about the Federation, but it's never exactly clear what. Maybe they really just wanted a little freedom and space so they could be their own distinct society and not part of a trillion-person megaculture that shapes every aspect of their daily lives. Maybe they wanted a challenge that they'd never get in a utopia. Maybe they wanted to build something that was theirs and no one else's. Maybe they didn't appreciate the Feds ceding the homes they'd built for themselves to the Cardassians without even consulting them. It is, in fact, rather selfish, but people are selfish and living in a society where the greater good invariably trumps individual ambition may have been exactly what these people were trying to get away from. If building a home on the frontier is what gave their lives meaning, then asking them to relocate and become good little Fed citizens again may have seemed like a worse fate than risking their lives for what they believed in. Of course, they didn't know they'd all wind up getting killed. They probably thought they'd win somehow and keep what they'd worked for and weren't thinking enough about what they still stood to lose. So yes, it's selfish and stupid, but it's also extremely human.
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Feb 4, 2017 21:53
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Some reactions after finishing the first half of The 50-Year Mission on audiobook: -Somehow I had no idea Nick Meyer was involved in IV, meaning that he is attached in a pretty big way to literally all of the well-regarded TOS films. -This entire book really puts into perspective that outside of Spock, McCoy, and Kirk, everyone else had a nothing part. I mean it's obvious if you know anything about it, but they really chafed under that and all the bad blood seems to come from the actors doing little more than lending their likenesses to the movies. If I were a TOS secondary I would be green with envy at TNG characters actually getting episodes centered around them. -OF COURSE all the Futurama writers are huge Trekkies. -A lot of stuff is left off the table on discussions of III, IV, V, and VI. On VI alone, I have heard that the rumors of Nimoy having to shut down a Kim Cattrall photoshoot are untrue, and they don't go at all into Brock Peters having a difficult time playing a space racist in VI. Meanwhile you get every little tidbit on the production of I and II (on I there is almost too much detail). As far as my thoughts on the second book so far, if I never hear an aintitcoolnews review again I will definitely be OK. I'm familiar with how unprofessional and  they are, but talk about trying to corner the lonely virgin demographic.
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Feb 4, 2017 22:37
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bull3964 posted:It's just a shame it's not possible to cut the reactors out of the Enterprise and decommission it in a non-destructive way so it could be a museum. Well there is one way... 
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Feb 5, 2017 00:27
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dont even fink about it posted:-This entire book really puts into perspective that outside of Spock, McCoy, and Kirk, everyone else had a nothing part. I mean it's obvious if you know anything about it, but they really chafed under that and all the bad blood seems to come from the actors doing little more than lending their likenesses to the movies. If I were a TOS secondary I would be green with envy at TNG characters actually getting episodes centered around them. I remember seeing an interview with Walter Koenig once and he talked about Star Trek 4 and how happy he was that Chekov actually got something to do, and you can see him get SO visibly excited that Chekov even had his own music cue in the soundtrack. "I had a theme!"
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Feb 5, 2017 00:30
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Duckbag posted:I think a big part of the problem is Trek has always been unwilling to explore any of the social problems that might actually exist in the Federation. These colonists definitely wanted to strike out on their own and get away from something about the Federation, but it's never exactly clear what. Maybe they really just wanted a little freedom and space so they could be their own distinct society and not part of a trillion-person megaculture that shapes every aspect of their daily lives. Maybe they wanted a challenge that they'd never get in a utopia. Maybe they wanted to build something that was theirs and no one else's. Maybe they didn't appreciate the Feds ceding the homes they'd built for themselves to the Cardassians without even consulting them. It is, in fact, rather selfish, but people are selfish and living in a society where the greater good invariably trumps individual ambition may have been exactly what these people were trying to get away from. If building a home on the frontier is what gave their lives meaning, then asking them to relocate and become good little Fed citizens again may have seemed like a worse fate than risking their lives for what they believed in. Of course, they didn't know they'd all wind up getting killed. They probably thought they'd win somehow and keep what they'd worked for and weren't thinking enough about what they still stood to lose. The Maquis are portrayed really poorly, they are made out to look like total idiots by just about every angle imaginable. People constantly hold up DS9 as the greatest Trek series, but to me it's just filled with annoying characters dealing with stupid problems that don't make any sense. As a show it was not properly equipped to discuss the material it wanted to. If the Federation is not a utopia, explain how it isn't one instead of just having characters that don't appear to understand how the Federation even works. There's nothing "backwater" about DS9 aside from characters in the first few episodes saying it is. Before long they have all the amenities of the Enterprise, but with a bunch of nonsensical pseudo-realism tacked on that doesn't add up in-universe. The seeds for the kind of stories DS9 wanted to tell, and in fact most of DS9's story prompts, were actually planted in TNG after Roddenberry became too ill to gently caress with it. I sort of resent that everyone thinks DS9 is the innovator. It's frustrating to watch DS9 constantly hand-wave instead of depict, while TNG, finished up before DS9 even got good, had a lot of the grittiness and realism that DS9 supposedly added. While I'm venting, I'm incredibly sick of Star Trek being constantly rebooted with origin story movies and shows. We are on our third prequel/reboot. You're not going to top or even compete with the TOS run. Tell me a story in the 2380's or 90's.
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Feb 5, 2017 01:35
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remusclaw posted:Nah, they were a bunch of shitheads. Trying to tie the whole thing to American Indian treaty breaking makes no sense in the context of what was going on. They basically expected the Fed to continue fighting a war for the sake of a few people's land at the expense of everyone else. Gee, I wonder if we had a catchy Star Trek quote to sum up why the Maquis are a bunch of shitheads? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa6c3OTr6yA Oh hey!
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Feb 5, 2017 01:38
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Get the cheese to sickbay. E: VVV - Hey fellow idiot. Orv fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Feb 5, 2017 |
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Feb 5, 2017 01:46
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dont even fink about it posted:The Maquis are portrayed really poorly, they are made out to look like total idiots by just about every angle imaginable. I'm watching the Voyager episode "Learning Curve" and Tuvok is dealing with some Maquis crew members who are being assholes.
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Feb 5, 2017 01:47
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It's hilarious that the Maquis were made specifically for Voyager yet TNG and DS9 did more with them than Voyager ever did.
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Feb 5, 2017 02:31
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More like the Mock-uis, amirite?
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Feb 5, 2017 02:33
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Cojawfee posted:I'm surprised the Federation still allows people to colonize planets in situations like that. Maybe we don't see the decent colonies, but it seems like every group of colonists is a bunch of assholes who are trying to get into trouble. Whenever the federation shows up and says "Sorry, but this other race that we can't afford to go to war with says this is their planet. Your option is to get what you can and come with us or die," the colonists choose to die. Plus there doesn't seem to be all that many of them and it's like few thousand people on per planet. Imagine getting into a space war over a bunch of stubborn people that wouldn't even fill Barcelona's stadium if you put them all together.
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Feb 5, 2017 04:16
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Evek posted:It's hilarious that the Maquis were made specifically for Voyager yet TNG and DS9 did more with them than Voyager ever did. Didn't they debut on DS9?
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Feb 5, 2017 04:55
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Yes they did, and also appeared on TNG. But they were created in order to have a "rebel faction" to cause "tension" on the next series.
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Feb 5, 2017 05:01
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Rhyno posted:Didn't they debut on DS9? Formally yes but they had been kicking the idea around since the last season of TNG.
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Feb 5, 2017 05:02
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Man, Fields of Fire (the one with the Vulcan serial killer with the transporting bullets) is a real dogshit episode. I know it gets ragged on a lot in this thread, but one point I don't see brought up much: Ezri finds the killer by randomly running into him on the elevator in the last 5 minutes of the episode. You don't introduce the culprit in the last 5 minutes 
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Feb 5, 2017 06:20
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Pakled posted:Man, Fields of Fire (the one with the Vulcan serial killer with the transporting bullets) is a real dogshit episode. I know it gets ragged on a lot in this thread, but one point I don't see brought up much: Ezri finds the killer by randomly running into him on the elevator in the last 5 minutes of the episode. You don't introduce the culprit in the last 5 minutes Just got to Season 7 today... I think I'll skip that one.  Speaking of Ezri. I know that Farrel wanted to go and the symbiote was a very fortuitous plot device to just get a new Dax, but it felt kind of cheap to have it back so soon if it all.
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Feb 5, 2017 06:39
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I think you can make a case that the Maquis were getting treated callously by the Federation to at least some extent, but it definitely seemed like either they were eager to cast off moorings, there was a lot of advanced stupidity that we did not see, or that they were getting secretly backed with free coverage from Romulus Today.
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Feb 5, 2017 06:44
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skooma512 posted:Speaking of Ezri. I know that Farrel wanted to go and the symbiote was a very fortuitous plot device to just get a new Dax, but it felt kind of cheap to have it back so soon if it all. It sucks because Ezri is a good character and I wish she wasn't introduced so late in the show's run.
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Feb 5, 2017 06:45
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Yeah I wish we got Ezri in like season 4 or 5, and early technobabble dax was outright eliminated in favour of "roguish" dax. DS9 thrived on flawed characters and their development and Ezri was actually an interesting character for that, but never got time to develop.
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Feb 5, 2017 06:55
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I do like her as a character, she's got a more interesting hook than Jadzia, I think, what with her being unprepared to join, but it's kind of a shame that her spotlight episodes in season 7 were not that great.
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Feb 5, 2017 06:57
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I liked Jadzia because she was the rather clichéd gives-no-fucks kind of character, without being cynical over everything. Like, Julian was creepily infatuated with her? She's been Curzon; she thinks it's funny that the dude has absolutely no game trying to get in her pants. She sees through the bluster of Klingons from frame one interacting with them, trolling the poo poo out of them in diplomatic endeavors.
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Feb 5, 2017 07:17
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Kazinsal posted:It sucks because Ezri is a good character and I wish she wasn't introduced so late in the show's run. Ezri should have been a dude just to really gently caress with Worf, Quark and Bashir as well as show just how different a host can be from another host. But that Idea is right up there with kill William and replace him with Thomas Riker in terms of awesome things that will never happen. MrJacobs fucked around with this message at 07:57 on Feb 5, 2017 |
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Feb 5, 2017 07:54
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You know what Star Trek needs? Less women, and more dudes.
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Feb 5, 2017 07:59
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skasion posted:You know what Star Trek needs? Less women, and more dudes. Ladies ruin everything. I googled "Star Trek Ladies" and a few clicks more lead me to this clown who got married in a Nemesis dress uniform. 
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Feb 5, 2017 08:05
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The Trek connections run deep!wikipedia posted:In 1982, the carrier made her 10th WESTPAC deployment. In April 1983, Enterprise ran aground on a sandbar in San Francisco Bay while returning from deployment and remained stuck there for several hours.[40] Coincidentally, George Takei, who played Mr. Sulu, helmsman of the fictional starship Enterprise, was aboard at the time as a guest of the navy.[41] Even though groundings and collisions are usually career-enders for U.S. warship captains, the captain at the time, Robert J. Kelly, who had already been selected for promotion to commodore, eventually became a four-star admiral and commander in chief of the U.S. Pacific Fleet.[42]
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Feb 5, 2017 08:07
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skasion posted:You know what Star Trek needs? Less women, and more dudes. That's not what I meant.
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Feb 5, 2017 08:20
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dont even fink about it posted:The seeds for the kind of stories DS9 wanted to tell, and in fact most of DS9's story prompts, were actually planted in TNG after Roddenberry became too ill to gently caress with it. I sort of resent that everyone thinks DS9 is the innovator. It's frustrating to watch DS9 constantly hand-wave instead of depict, while TNG, finished up before DS9 even got good, had a lot of the grittiness and realism that DS9 supposedly added. While I disagree with you on DS9, you're spot on about TNG (post-Roddenberry, pre-burnout - basically seasons 3-5) pushing the envelope and not getting enough credit for it. They weren't doing straight episode-by-episode syndication, but there was a lot of long-form storytelling, particularly with the Klingons and Romulans. The Defector alone sets up so much of what you'd get tonally and thematically with DS9: directly referencing and building off an episode earlier in the season, inverted sympathies with the focus on the enemy alien while the crew are being hard-asses, shades of gray morality, and loyalty to ideals vs. loyalty to identity.
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Feb 5, 2017 08:22
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MrJacobs posted:That's not what I meant. I like Ezri a lot better than Jadzia, and she fucks with the expectations of characters enough. She's a very different sort of person from Jadzia, a somewhat unusual character type for a Trek show, and probably just needed another season or two to get fleshed out more organically. As it is they kind of bombard you with Ezri time like every other episode of S7.
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Feb 5, 2017 08:29
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Personally I think they should've planned from the start to kill and replace Dax at the end of season 2. Have your initial Dax as the introduction and then pull the rug out.MrJacobs posted:Ezri should have been a dude just to really gently caress with Worf, Quark and Bashir as well as show just how different a host can be from another host. But that Idea is right up there with kill William and replace him with Thomas Riker in terms of awesome things that will never happen. Main reason it couldn't happen is it would've left Kira the only woman.
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Feb 5, 2017 08:33
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skasion posted:I like Ezri a lot better than Jadzia, and she fucks with the expectations of characters enough. She's a very different sort of person from Jadzia, a somewhat unusual character type for a Trek show, and probably just needed another season or two to get fleshed out more organically. As it is they kind of bombard you with Ezri time like every other episode of S7. Although seriously, Worf's love interests dying is something that they have carried over to the novels for some reason and I don't know why.
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Feb 5, 2017 08:36
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Worf should have been Dax for the final season, talk about game changer.
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Feb 5, 2017 08:38
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McSpanky posted:Worf should have been Dax for the final season, talk about game changer. DS9 S08E03: Worf attempts to settle into his "new flesh", struggling with spot itch, an uncontrollable urge to discuss menstruation with Kira, and what to do when both your names are last names. Vic convinces Jake and Nog to rob a bank.
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Feb 5, 2017 08:44
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Yes please.
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Feb 5, 2017 08:48
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Someone needs to make a ds9 season 8 twitter
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Feb 5, 2017 09:04
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Baronjutter posted:Someone needs to make a ds9 season 8 twitter Every fifth tweet should be "I don't see flying cars. Why. Why? Why?!"
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Feb 5, 2017 09:24
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skooma512 posted:Just got to Season 7 today... I think I'll skip that one. Well, more accurately, Farrell didn't want to do 26 episodes a year any more, and tried to negotiate a reduced commitment of something like 8-13 episodes. (I just loaned my Fifty Year Mission out so I can't get the exact quote.) Apparently Rick Berman flipped out and told her it was all or nothing, so she left. Ira Behr claims that if he'd been made aware of any of this at the time, he would have fought to let her do the reduced schedule and keep her on the show.
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Feb 5, 2017 09:32
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dont even fink about it posted:Meanwhile you get every little tidbit on the production of I and II (on I there is almost too much detail). Yeah, that's my big issue with the first volume. There is so much stuff that happened during the production of the first six movies, but 75 percent of the book is about the original series and the first movie, and then it just hits fast-forward.
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Feb 5, 2017 16:46
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Yeah the bit about the Kim cattrall photo shoot was like a sentence. I was driving on the highway and did a double take because I wasn't sure what I'd just heard and they didn't say anything else about it.
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Feb 5, 2017 17:00
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