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Sulla-Marius 88 posted:Just put Merkel in charge, the British are clearly incapable of governing themselves Hah, no. Get hosed, aside from less racism than May, there's little difference. Rather not have another lovely centre right type thanks. Guavanaut posted:Everyone take out your copybooks, today's lesson is Liberals will always defend right wing populism over any kind of leftism. Write it 100 times. Hahaha, The Guardian have given space to someone from The Federalist. That's peak Guardian. 5th Feb, 1885 - King Leopold II of Belgium has decided that Congo isn't a colony of Belgium, it's a personal possession. This definitely goes badly for the people of Congo. forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 14:10 on Feb 5, 2017 |
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Feb 5, 2017 14:06
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Pissflaps posted:Any labour mp would do Even Burgon?
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Feb 5, 2017 14:15
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Guavanaut posted:Everyone take out your copybooks, today's lesson is Liberals will always defend right wing populism over any kind of leftism. Write it 100 times. Why are fascist and champion of forgotten millions mutually exclusive?
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Feb 5, 2017 14:17
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Because one's a bad word, and people don't like to be called the bad word. "I'm not a racist, I'm a race realist." "I'm not a sexist, I'm a gender traditionalist." "I'm not a piece of poo poo, I'm part of the alt-right."
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Feb 5, 2017 14:22
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OwlFancier posted:Why are fascist and champion of forgotten millions mutually exclusive? it's funny because fascists like to purposefully forget millions
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Feb 5, 2017 14:22
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Guavanaut posted:I'm going to choose to read them in the same way as that movement for gender inclusive Spanish, mi amig@s. Maybe you should remember that migrants are a scourge taking our homes, benefits, nhs and jobs
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Feb 5, 2017 14:22
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Anyone who thinks Labour should support remaining in the EU should watch Caroline Lucas on Peston today. As much as I admire her she had absolutely no answer to the question of 'why did you support a referendum and now reject leaving the EU?' and it's painful to watch. Possibly because it's an impossible question to answer.
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Feb 5, 2017 14:51
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jabby posted:Anyone who thinks Labour should support remaining in the EU should watch Caroline Lucas on Peston today. As much as I admire her she had absolutely no answer to the question of 'why did you support a referendum and now reject leaving the EU?' and it's painful to watch. Possibly because it's an impossible question to answer. Plenty of MPs didn't. Incidentally, they were right to oppose the referendum purely for keeping the Tory Party together.
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Feb 5, 2017 14:54
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jabby posted:Anyone who thinks Labour should support remaining in the EU should watch Caroline Lucas on Peston today. As much as I admire her she had absolutely no answer to the question of 'why did you support a referendum and now reject leaving the EU?' and it's painful to watch. Possibly because it's an impossible question to answer. you would have thought she might have anticipated that question, and maybe prepare for it
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Feb 5, 2017 14:58
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forkboy84 posted:Plenty of MPs didn't. Incidentally, they were right to oppose the referendum purely for keeping the Tory Party together. Some didn't support a referendum. Corbyn and the vast majority of Labour did, and the Greens did. The honest answer to the question of course is either 'we didn't really want a referendum but wanted to seem like we support democracy' or 'we wanted a referendum but the public voted wrong so now we want to ignore it'. Neither of which is likely to go down well with the public. JFairfax posted:you would have thought she might have anticipated that question, and maybe prepare for it You can have all the time in the world to prepare for a question and there still not be a good answer. jabby fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Feb 5, 2017 |
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Feb 5, 2017 14:58
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forkboy84 posted:Plenty of MPs didn't. Incidentally, they were right to oppose the referendum purely for keeping the Tory Party together. Not that many. Just the SNP and Dennis Skinner voted no wasn't it?
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Feb 5, 2017 15:00
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You could probably give an accurate answer that the leave case was predicated on absolute lies but given they're lies that people really want to believe I doubt you could sell that in the timeframe available.
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Feb 5, 2017 15:12
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Cerv posted:Not that many. Just the SNP and Dennis Skinner voted no wasn't it? Interesting that when it came up for a vote in 2011, Skinner, Corbyn and McDonnell all broke the Labour whip to vote in favour of an EU referendum, although Cameron succeeded stopping it on that particular instance. A significant number of Labour and Tory MPs rebelled at that vote - interesting how different the votes were for the later one... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8847123/EU-referendum-how-the-MPs-voted.html
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Feb 5, 2017 15:15
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Cerv posted:Not that many. Just the SNP and Dennis Skinner voted no wasn't it? Jesus, really? That's hilarious. I just assumed that the Labour right would have decided a referendum was a terrible idea. My bad. All of Labour is useless.
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Feb 5, 2017 15:22
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forkboy84 posted:Jesus, really? That's hilarious. I just assumed that the Labour right would have decided a referendum was a terrible idea. My bad. All of Labour is useless. careful now. if you look back at what the Labour-right leadership said in justification for not voting against the 2015 bill it's the exact same logic as the Corbyn-leadership in not voting against article 50 now. will of the people and all that
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Feb 5, 2017 15:42
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Labour sets up 'working group' to investigate universal basic income, John McDonnell revealshttp://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-sets-up-working-group-to-investigate-radical-idea-of-basic-income-john-mcdonnell-reveals-a7563566.html posted:Labour has set up a “working group” to investigate the radical idea of a basic income and will report back on its conclusions before the next general election, John McDonnell has said. Yes please.
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Feb 5, 2017 15:43
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jabby posted:Some didn't support a referendum. Corbyn and the vast majority of Labour did, and the Greens did. The answer is actually "We wanted a referendum because it would tear the Tory Party apart when it didn't go the way of the Eurosceptics".
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Feb 5, 2017 15:46
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blunt posted:Labour sets up 'working group' to investigate universal basic income, John McDonnell reveals I can see a number of potential pitfalls with that, but hey, that's what an investigatory group is for. If they find out that it's a bad idea, then it's a bad idea, and at least they've checked.
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Feb 5, 2017 15:46
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goddamnedtwisto posted:The answer is actually "We wanted a referendum because it would tear the Tory Party apart when it didn't go the way of the Eurosceptics". went well didn't it
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Feb 5, 2017 15:50
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If I recall, one of the major stumbling blocks to UBI in the UK–and most economic policy all around–is the shitshow that is the housing market.
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Feb 5, 2017 15:50
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Capitalism cannot fail, it can only be failed.
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Feb 5, 2017 15:53
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- proponents of ubi
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Feb 5, 2017 15:53
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TinTower posted:If I recall, one of the major stumbling blocks to UBI in the UK–and most economic policy all around–is the shitshow that is the housing market.
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Feb 5, 2017 15:55
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Guavanaut posted:Everyone take out your copybooks, today's lesson is Liberals will always defend right wing populism over any kind of leftism. Write it 100 times. Obama promised solutions, delivered a comprehennsive healthcare plan, then like turkeys voting for christmas, dumb fucks across America voted for Trump because he promised to repeal it, whilst not being aware that this OMBUMMERCARE thing they hated so much because Fox told them to was actually the ACA that provided their insurance.
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Feb 5, 2017 15:56
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thespaceinvader posted:Obama promised solutions, delivered a comprehennsive healthcare plan, then like turkeys voting for christmas, dumb fucks across America voted for Trump because he promised to repeal it, whilst not being aware that this OMBUMMERCARE thing they hated so much because Fox told them to was actually the ACA that provided their insurance. Now that's not entirely fair, there's a great number of things wrong with the ACA. Now, of course, most of the issues are due to Obama having to make compromises to get it past the Republican controlled houses.
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Feb 5, 2017 15:58
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Guavanaut posted:Everyone take out your copybooks, today's lesson is Liberals will always defend right wing populism over any kind of leftism. Write it 100 times. I really thought this was a joke headline you had edited yourself. 
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Feb 5, 2017 16:12
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One thing you can say for the British parties in comparison to the American parties is that at least they will actually contest every opening nine times out of ten. You get a by-election for a local council, for instance, and the parties will often fight hard for those as they will in a by-election for a Westminster seat. The number of seats in America - at local level, state level, even national level in some cases - where the Democrats (and it's usually the Democrats) just didn't bother putting up a candidate is ridiculous. There's places Clinton won handily last November where the Democrats didn't even put up a candidate in the corresponding state legislature seats. Consider how the brilliant, ground-breaking idea put in place by the most successful DNC chair of the past 15 years (Howard Dean) essentially amounted to, "Let's contest every seat." When you consider the amount of money in American politics in general and campaigning in particular, it's ludicrous that they were not and are not. Of course, if turnout is any indication, the Democrats don't seem to think that anything but the White House matters, which is probably why the Republicans now control the executive, the legislature, the majority of the state governments (I'm pretty sure they have as much as they need to pass new constitutional amendments) and quite soon they'll have de facto control of the judiciary.
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Feb 5, 2017 16:13
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mehall posted:Now that's not entirely fair, there's a great number of things wrong with the ACA. I don't doubt there was a lot wrong with it. It's the American healthcare system, it's FUBAR. But nevertheless, it's the truth - Trump fooled or tricked or badgered or bewildered a whole mess of people into voting for him despite it being transparently against their best interests, and like here, a lot of it falls on the media being at fault for it. E: Wheat Loaf posted:One thing you can say for the British parties in comparison to the American parties is that at least they will actually contest every opening nine times out of ten. You get a by-election for a local council, for instance, and the parties will often fight hard for those as they will in a by-election for a Westminster seat. It's one of the things that really puts me off discussion in CLP and Branch meetings - people vituperatively condemning the greens, particularly (the largest minority on our council IIRC) but the Lib Dems and the SNP, as well, whilst virtually ignoring the Tories. Neither of the latter I'm a fan of, but I recognise that to most people, they're seen as broadly on the same end of the political spectrum as Labour. I mean, I have my differences with Green party policy, largely scientific, but fundamentally they want basically the same thing I do - a fairer society that will last many generations, rather than an unfair one that will unravel in 100 years or so the rate we're going. So it really pisses me off when people make out that they're the bad guy, because they're the main opponent. This came up in particular in response to the electoral alliance proposal that was doing the rounds last year. It put me off bothering to go to meetings for nearly two months, being told 'you can't trust the greens, they're arseholes' because they fight local elections against labour. My wife is a green party voter, I think, though she's always cagey about it. Sometimes (most times) I get really ticked off when the left devolves into factional infighting whilst the right laughs gleefully and hoovers up the votes. thespaceinvader fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Feb 5, 2017 |
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Feb 5, 2017 16:14
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TheRat posted:I really thought this was a joke headline you had edited yourself. The Guardian has published an oped by Bin Laden before. It's a consistent albeit stupid position.
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Feb 5, 2017 16:17
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Fangz posted:The Guardian has published an oped by Bin Laden before. It's a consistent albeit stupid position. It's not BY Donald Trump, though the banner is misleading. It's ABOUT Donald Trump.
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Feb 5, 2017 16:24
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Following the election last year really made me appreciate our political system, even if it can be a bit poo poo at times
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Feb 5, 2017 16:24
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Wheat Loaf posted:One thing you can say for the British parties in comparison to the American parties is that at least they will actually contest every opening nine times out of ten. You get a by-election for a local council, for instance, and the parties will often fight hard for those as they will in a by-election for a Westminster seat. The dems kinda did try to contest every state, this is actually one of the main complaints about this campaign. That they were complacent about states that were apparently safe according to polling data like Michigan and instead went for more risky states like Georgia to run up the electoral college score/obtain downticket advantages. Dem failure in congress is mostly about gerrymandering. Also the story of lowered turnout is kinda nonsense. Turnout reduced in states where the dems won comfortably. But it rose in the marginal states that Trump flipped. Basically the most plausible conclusion is that Trump succeed in activating a new population of racist rural voters to replace the educated voters he lost loads of, and that helps under the US system.
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Feb 5, 2017 16:26
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thespaceinvader posted:It's not BY Donald Trump, though the banner is misleading. It's ABOUT Donald Trump. My point is that they habitually put up opinion pieces by people the editorial line disagrees vehemently with.
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Feb 5, 2017 16:27
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Cerv posted:careful now. if you look back at what the Labour-right leadership said in justification for not voting against the 2015 bill it's the exact same logic as the Corbyn-leadership in not voting against article 50 now. Hence why I said all of the Labour Party is useless. I absolutely think what Corbyn is doing is dumb. Leaving the EU will be bad for poor people. Despite the EU being bad for poor people because neoliberalism inherent to the EU is bad.
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Feb 5, 2017 16:32
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"It can't get any worse, and maybe if those southern pricks in London bitching that they have to commute for an hour a day because house prices in the capital are high find out what it's like to choose between heating and food then things might change" said many a poor person before voting to leave.
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Feb 5, 2017 16:38
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OwlFancier posted:You could probably give an accurate answer that the leave case was predicated on absolute lies but given they're lies that people really want to believe I doubt you could sell that in the timeframe available. She tried that and Peston countered with the fact that the remain camp were lying through their teeth too, with the so-called 'punishment budget' being a particularly egregious example. Yes, the Greens weren't responsible for that but both sides doing it makes it a lot harder to say the result should be overturned in favour of remain because 'the leave side lied'. As an answer it's also very vulnerable to the standard 'so you think the British public are stupid?' defence. Very few people are going to be convinced by an argument that rests on them being unable to spot when politicians/the media are lying to them, because everyone thinks they are too smart for that to happen. forkboy84 posted:Hence why I said all of the Labour Party is useless. I absolutely think what Corbyn is doing is dumb. Leaving the EU will be bad for poor people. Despite the EU being bad for poor people because neoliberalism inherent to the EU is bad. I think that's a reasonable argument, but I think if you feel that way you should be mad at him for voting in favour of a referendum. Not for voting to trigger Article 50. Once he voted to give the decision to the public then the die was cast so to speak. jabby fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Feb 5, 2017 |
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Feb 5, 2017 16:40
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Yeah that is definitely a powerful motivator.... the problem is that they're wrong and things can and probably will get worse.
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Feb 5, 2017 16:40
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Oh but we poors know that it can and will get worse. At this point we will take the consequences so long as the middle classes get brought down with us. Then just maybe the government might listen. I saw a high voted guardian comment the other day where some witch was crowing about how she loved sitting in a Waterstones cafe leafing through a pile of potential purchases because there were never any chavs or workmen in high vis jackets in there.
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Feb 5, 2017 16:48
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quote:She tried that and Peston countered with the fact that the remain camp were lying through their teeth too, with the so-called 'punishment budget' being a particularly egregious example. Yes, the Greens weren't responsible for that but both sides doing it makes it a lot harder to say the result should be overturned in favour of remain because 'the leave side lied'. Cool, you don't know what the word lie means.
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Feb 5, 2017 16:59
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Guavanaut posted:Everyone take out your copybooks, today's lesson is Liberals will always defend right wing populism over any kind of leftism. Write it 100 times. the writer is a American conservative/libertarian/small-gubmint type though he's a senior fellow of this. he writes for that.
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Feb 5, 2017 17:01
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