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Guavanaut posted:Everyone take out your copybooks, today's lesson is Liberals will always defend right wing populism over any kind of leftism. Write it 100 times. edit: 2032: Arnold Schwarzenegger is the president, to the annoyance of Sylvester Stallone. How he's still alive by then is unknown, but hey, at least it implies that Trump will leave him something to be president of Zephro fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Feb 5, 2017 |
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Feb 5, 2017 17:01
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jabby posted:
I can be mad at him for both. And in fact I am. Although I am mostly mad at the way that Corbyn has completely failed to hold the Tories to account over Brexit and triggering Article 50. I've pretty much come to terms with the fact that Brexit is inevitable, doesn't mean I don't expect the opposition to do their loving job and at least put the brakes on the worst excesses. Much like why Harriet Harman saying they should abstain on the welfare bill back in 2015 was dreadful, it failed to hold the government to account. Zephro posted:I had a quick look at the Federalist and it seems to be a right-wing, god-and-family, Christianty-with-everything website more than a liberal one They regularly get mocked on Chapo Trap House. Or did before the election anyway.
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Feb 5, 2017 17:01
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as for why the Grauniad is picking it up: a mixture of #slatepitch contrariness and because the article, byline aside, is indistinguishable from left-wing authors making the same charge of corrupt and incompetent elites running the establishment
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Feb 5, 2017 17:10
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/05/ken-clarke-on-brexit-ive-never-seen-anything-as-mad-or-chaotic-as-this
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Feb 5, 2017 17:14
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ronya posted:he's a senior fellow of this. he writes for that. I get that the idea of CiF is supposed to be to provide the Millsian idea of a free pulpit for everyone (who can pass the Graun's arbitrary standards), but we also know all about the failure of that kind of thing against rabid populism.
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Feb 5, 2017 17:16
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forkboy84 posted:Hence why I said all of the Labour Party is useless. I absolutely think what Corbyn is doing is dumb. Leaving the EU will be bad for poor people. Despite the EU being bad for poor people because neoliberalism inherent to the EU is bad. Perhaps Corbyn should have backed Leave during the campaign. He's elected on the basis that he stays true to his principles and he wants to enact radical change. His principles vis-a-vis the EU had always been in the Bennite Eurosceptic position, and leaving the EU would have been the most radical change he could have conceivably associated with. If Corbyn had declared for Leave and campaigned hard for it, it might have prevented Brexit from being defined as it has been by Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove et al. If he had been out there spouting some stuff about how it's run by bosses and capitalists or whatever (obviously why I voted to Remain myself lol) he could have added a new dimension to the referendum conversation. He even could have said that we could have even freer movement outside the EU if he'd wanted, because we'd be Taking Back Control of Our Borders and that would mean we could keep them as open as we want. It wouldn't have been the most incredible thing anyone said during the campaign. How could this have happened? I imagine it could have happened if Greece had flared up again and the EU institutions started making trouble for SYRIZA (though I think it's only fair to note that the EU institutions are responsible for 27 other countries and can't make special concessions for Greece, any more than they should have been making special concessions for Britain to stay in as a full member) and people started talking about "Lexit" again (because I distinctly remember a couple of Owen Jones articles during the height of the crisis in 2015 which argued that the Greek situation showed that leftists should be prepared to seriously consider leaving the EU). Now, what would the outcome be for him? Notwithstanding an inciting event as described above, I imagine he would almost certainly have faced a leadership challenge regardless of which way the referendum went. But whether or not he'd lose would depend on whether his supporters are willing to take a nuanced look at the politics of the situation, or if they'd all just buy into the "Euroscepticism is bad because Nigel Farage is a racist" idea you see a lot. In any event, I think it is interesting to speculate.
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Feb 5, 2017 17:19
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aside from the Americanism of using "middle class" to invoke the notion of the wage labouring class, the essay could have come from a left-wing populist, of which there are plenty of course CiF leans towards a particular set of views; non-liberal ones have to pass a somewhat higher bar than liberal ones. combine that with a desire for ronya fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Feb 5, 2017 |
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Feb 5, 2017 17:23
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ronya posted:aside from the Americanism of using "middle class" to invoke the notion of the wage labouring class, the essay could have come from a left-wing populist, of which there are plenty
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Feb 5, 2017 17:47
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Wheat Loaf posted:Perhaps Corbyn should have backed Leave during the campaign. He's elected on the basis that he stays true to his principles and he wants to enact radical change. His principles vis-a-vis the EU had always been in the Bennite Eurosceptic position, and leaving the EU would have been the most radical change he could have conceivably associated with. If Corbyn had declared for Leave and campaigned hard for it, it might have prevented Brexit from being defined as it has been by Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove et al. If he had been out there spouting some stuff about how it's run by bosses and capitalists or whatever (obviously why I voted to Remain myself lol) he could have added a new dimension to the referendum conversation. He even could have said that we could have even freer movement outside the EU if he'd wanted, because we'd be Taking Back Control of Our Borders and that would mean we could keep them as open as we want. It wouldn't have been the most incredible thing anyone said during the campaign. Whichever way Corbyn campaigned on Brexit, the result would have been the same - being denigrated and lied about by the press, even the nominally lefty press, when he wasn't being ignored.
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Feb 5, 2017 17:48
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thespaceinvader posted:Whichever way Corbyn campaigned on Brexit, the result would have been the same - being denigrated and lied about by the press, even the nominally lefty press, when he wasn't being ignored. Then there's no cost for him to actually pick the morally correct position that represents his supporters. Instead the position that what the government is up to is based fundamentally on lies and cruelty is left to wither and die.
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Feb 5, 2017 17:57
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Guavanaut posted:That and the idea that Trump is somehow not part of the 'elites' himself, which Trump claims, Davidson strongly implies, and no left-wing populist would believe. cough substitute "anti-establishment" if you prefer
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Feb 5, 2017 18:02
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https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/827312590359519233 #LibDemFightback #UKIPSurge
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Feb 5, 2017 18:04
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This is really a function of how 'establishment' is a stupid word that has no meaning. When conservatives say 'establishment' they mean teachers, academics, scientists, leftwing politicians, judges, charity workers, journalists. When leftists say 'establishment' they mean rich people.
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Feb 5, 2017 18:05
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Fangz posted:Cool, you don't know what the word lie means. Yes, the remain arguments put across by Cameron and Osbourne were completely truthful, and a budget with huge tax rises and massive spending cuts was a realistic prospect rather than a transparent threat which would crash the economy if ever implemented.
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Feb 5, 2017 18:06
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assuming that one thinks that it was about the by-election, three-lining the bill must seem like a great move in retrospect
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Feb 5, 2017 18:08
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jabby posted:Yes, the remain arguments put across by Cameron and Osbourne were completely truthful, and a budget with huge tax rises and massive spending cuts was a realistic prospect rather than a transparent threat which would crash the economy if ever implemented. Lol if you think Brexit won't crash the economy. The timing is the thing that remain got wrong, and they got it wrong because people didn't predict the precise political consequences of when and how the decision will be implemented. The ability of the May government to lie to the public that everything is going to be okay is basically the cause of all of the forecast error. Osborne by most economic experts understated the damage Brexit is going to do, because people put in charge of making the estimates were told to disregard the economic damage of reduced migration.
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Feb 5, 2017 18:10
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Fangz posted:This is really a function of how 'establishment' is a stupid word that has no meaning. We should just discard all words because their meanings are invariably subjective and multi-faceted and communicate solely through inarticulate grunting.
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Feb 5, 2017 18:10
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the bank of england has the final say on whether there will be a crash, although a painful decline in projected growth that demands more austerity is of course another possibility
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Feb 5, 2017 18:12
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TomViolence posted:We should just discard all words because their meanings are invariably subjective and multi-faceted and communicate solely through inarticulate grunting. This seems to be what is happening, yes.
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Feb 5, 2017 18:11
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Lord of the Llamas posted:https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/827312590359519233 In b4 "this is bad for Corbyn"
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Feb 5, 2017 18:17
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ronya posted:the bank of england has the final say on whether there will be a crash, although a painful decline in projected growth that demands more austerity is of course another possibility Current economic forecasts from official stats are ridiculously optimistic because they work within the parameters of assumptions supplied to them by the government. As in, they implictly assume everything will be awesome.
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Feb 5, 2017 18:17
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thespaceinvader posted:Whichever way Corbyn campaigned on Brexit, the result would have been the same - being denigrated and lied about by the press, even the nominally lefty press, when he wasn't being ignored. I don't think that really means anything for what I posted. (I'm just posting things I think might be interesting for people to talk about.)
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Feb 5, 2017 18:18
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Lord of the Llamas posted:https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/827312590359519233 Interesting cherry picking. quote:In the two seats on Rotherham council, one was gained by the Liberal Democrats at Labour’s expense, whilst Labour also gained a seat from UKIP. The Lib Dems were boosted in a 50.4 point increase in their vote share in the first ward, Brinsworth and Catcliffe. In this ward Labour’s vote plummeted by 26.2 points. https://labourlist.org/2017/02/council-by-elections-labour-take-seat-from-ukip-as-lib-dems-surge-in-rotherham/ Anyway local council elections is a load of noise.
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Feb 5, 2017 18:25
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Council elections are meaningless unless they favour the party I support then they are the perfect barometer of how the next general election will go.
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Feb 5, 2017 18:37
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Fangz posted:Lol if you think Brexit won't crash the economy. Of course Brexit will crash the economy, I'm not talking about the predictions of the damage it would do. Those weren't lies. I'm talking about Osbourne claiming he would force through a budget that would be the absolute worst thing to do in that situation in an attempt to scare the population. That was a lie. In any case the lies are a weak argument for opposing Brexit when you supported a referendum. You always come back to the fact that if Brexit is so terrible (it is) the decision should never have been left up to the British people. So don't be mad at Corbyn for whipping Article 50, be mad at Corbyn, the rest of Labour, the Greens, the Lib Dems and a lot of other people for supporting the referendum in the first place.
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Feb 5, 2017 18:42
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quote:LAB 36.1% (+15.5) Am I going mad or was Labour's previous share still bigger than UKIP's?
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Feb 5, 2017 18:43
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I can't get enough of are Dan
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ober better watch out there are some serious people out for him https://twitter.com/USXPD/status/827808750459248640?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
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Feb 5, 2017 18:42
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I mean if the right want to throw themselves out of helicopters I'm not going to stop them.
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Feb 5, 2017 18:53
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Goku is totally Antifa
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Feb 5, 2017 19:13
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Gonzo McFee posted:Goku is totally Antifa There aren't really any right wing animes. That's the strange thing. Maybe Berserk because Guts is really loving manly and doesn't afraid of anything? Toho (their loving mascot) is about fairies and shrine maidens, what the gently caress does that have to do with the right?
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Feb 5, 2017 19:16
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jabby posted:Of course Brexit will crash the economy, I'm not talking about the predictions of the damage it would do. Those weren't lies. I'm talking about Osbourne claiming he would force through a budget that would be the absolute worst thing to do in that situation in an attempt to scare the population. That was a lie. Osborne thinking that max austerity is the solution to all problems seems consistent with his previous positions, it didn't happen because Osborne stopped being Chancellor. In the long term the punishment budget will probably happen. It's a matter of when. But you're shifting the goalposts, eh? The position that Osborne's predictions was a 'punishment budget' is a Leave position. Osborne created a projection of what a Brexit crash in 2019-2020 would mean and how he would address it in terms of spending cuts and tax rises. So how does this turn into a lie? Is the lie here that Osborne didn't actually think Brexit would lead to an economic crunch? Is the lie that Osborne is actually a secret Keynesian? It turns only into a lie if you swallow a shitload of Leave whoppers. Specifically the theory that Osborne actually thinks Brexit would be great for the economy, but he's pretending that he would intentionally and knowingly make the economy worse because he's evil, whereas actually he knows well enough that Britain will be in a glorious golden age and the Tories would never respond to bad economic circumstances by loving over the public. And well, if you actually believe all of that, then hahahaha. quote:In any case the lies are a weak argument for opposing Brexit when you supported a referendum. You always come back to the fact that if Brexit is so terrible (it is) the decision should never have been left up to the British people. So don't be mad at Corbyn for whipping Article 50, be mad at Corbyn, the rest of Labour, the Greens, the Lib Dems and a lot of other people for supporting the referendum in the first place. I can be mad about multiple people simultaneous to being mad at Corbyn. Events don't have a single cause. Yeah, I am annoyed with all these frat boys for setting my flat on fire, but the fucker who is still pouring on lighter fluid? Fangz fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Feb 5, 2017 |
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Feb 5, 2017 19:17
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HJB posted:Am I going mad or was Labour's previous share still bigger than UKIP's?
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Feb 5, 2017 19:19
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Fangz posted:It's a matter of when. I was gonna say "massively cut everything" definitely seems like what May will do, whether or not she will raise taxes is debatable but she sure as poo poo will find some way to make the poor pay for her fuckups.
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Feb 5, 2017 19:21
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Regarde Aduck posted:Toho (their loving mascot) is about fairies and shrine maidens, what the gently caress does that have to do with the right? 
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Feb 5, 2017 19:21
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OwlFancier posted:I was gonna say "massively cut everything" definitely seems like what May will do, whether or not she will raise taxes is debatable but she sure as poo poo will find some way to make the poor pay for her fuckups. May's basic strategy is very simple - she needs to delay the crash until some other crisis happens (e.g. the Trump recession). Then she can hide the consequences of Brexit and the lovely government response to it in the wider global recession. That's how she'll avoid blame.
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Feb 5, 2017 19:25
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Every degenerate on this forsaken rock loves anime for some insane reason including me
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Feb 5, 2017 19:26
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Fangz posted:May's basic strategy is very simple - she needs to delay the crash until some other crisis happens (e.g. the Trump recession). Then she can hide the consequences of Brexit and the lovely government response to it in the wider global recession. That's how she'll avoid blame. It's going to be fun watching her manage that within tory ideological constraints if so.
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Feb 5, 2017 19:26
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Regarde Aduck posted:There aren't really any right wing animes. That's the strange thing. Maybe Berserk because Guts is really loving manly and doesn't afraid of anything? Toho (their loving mascot) is about fairies and shrine maidens, what the gently caress does that have to do with the right?
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Feb 5, 2017 19:29
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Lord of the Llamas posted:https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/827312590359519233 https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/827308197279047682 Not a good idea to pay too much attention to these council ward elections.
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Feb 5, 2017 19:30
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Regarde Aduck posted:There aren't really any right wing animes.
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Feb 5, 2017 19:32
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