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MisterBibs posted:We didn't need the humans as protagonists. Humans aren't the protagonists in Warcraft. The orcs that want to avoid being fel corrupted (or those who want to atone for being fel corrupted) are the protagonists. Sure, if you ignore that the main plot thread of Warcraft 3/TFT is about Arthas's journey to become the Lich King, with the Orcs being increasingly relegated to side stories as the games progress.
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Feb 1, 2017 05:30
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Sure, if you ignore that the main plot thread of Warcraft 3/TFT is about Arthas's journey to become the Lich King, with the Orcs being increasingly relegated to side stories as the games progress. Arthas's story is all about Arthas refusing to follow the warning the Orcs heeded, and suffering the penalties for not being like the Orcish Horde. After all, they pretty much had to invent a human faction that didn't die off to support WoW, because within context of War3 humanity had been lost. TFT is pretty much all about setting up the other factions joining the Orcish Horde (partially as a result of the human-centric Alliance being terrible non-protagonists in the form of Garithos and Whoever Abandoned The Blood Elves). You want a good guy protagonist in Warcraft, it's Thrall and the Orcs. Any other factions are either antagonists or realize Thrall and the Orcs are right. MisterBibs fucked around with this message at 05:46 on Feb 1, 2017 |
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Feb 1, 2017 05:43
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You have a giant wall of pictures with red string lines connecting to Thrall, don't you.
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Feb 1, 2017 08:21
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MisterBibs posted:Arthas's story is all about Arthas refusing to follow the warning the Orcs heeded, and suffering the penalties for not being like the Orcish Horde. After all, they pretty much had to invent a human faction that didn't die off to support WoW, because within context of War3 humanity had been lost. That story is about Arthas and the Alliance, full stop. It then shifts to being about the remnants of the Alliance and the various races of Kalimdor. Orcs play a role in that but they're fully absent from over half the game. MisterBibs posted:
The RPG campaign is about the Horde, as are a few missions setting up the Forsaken. That campaign's relative importance to the game is made clear by the fact that it wasn't finished until a year after the actual game came out. The rest is about Arthas, the remnants of the Alliance and Night Elves, with a heavy focus on Illidan and his crew of elves/naga/dranei. That last part is curious, but makes sense if you believe the rumors that they were originally going to be a third faction in WoW (given how TFT is obviously setting the stage for WoW). MisterBibs posted:You want a good guy protagonist in Warcraft, it's Thrall and the Orcs. Any other factions are either antagonists or realize Thrall and the Orcs are right. Jaina? Malfurion? Tyrande? They all realized Medivh was right. Just like Thrall.
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Feb 2, 2017 01:08
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The other day I saw the guy who invented Orcish for this movie give a talk, and met him afterward (he's also responsible for all the GoT languages). It was cool! He is a super chill dude, although I didn't get the impression he cared much for his work on Warcraft.
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Feb 2, 2017 04:19
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MisterBibs posted:Especially since the Human and Orc campaigns in the first game were antithetical to each other, and the Human one doesn't even happen, story-wise. Shhhhh, don't tell them the spoiler!
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Feb 2, 2017 07:40
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MisterBibs posted:Arthas's story is all about Arthas refusing to follow the warning the Orcs heeded, and suffering the penalties for not being like the Orcish Horde. After all, they pretty much had to invent a human faction that didn't die off to support WoW, because within context of War3 humanity had been lost.  You're so wrong it's kind of incredible. Warcraft 3 is the story of Arthas and everything else that happens does so to bring him to the point where he becomes the Lich King. The only part of the Orc campaign that actually matters is the death of Cenarius and, honestly, that could have been done by the Undead and/or the Legion without changing the overall plot.
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Feb 2, 2017 11:57
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Tender Bender posted:That story is about Arthas and the Alliance, full stop. It then shifts to being about the remnants of the Alliance and the various races of Kalimdor. Orcs play a role in that but they're fully absent from over half the game. Arthas's story is about his fall, a fall that represents the failure to heed the warning Thrall and the Orcs heeded. He's the failure state that the heroes and the hero's faction avoid. Tender Bender posted:The rest is about Arthas, the remnants of the Alliance and Night Elves, with a heavy focus on Illidan and his crew of elves/naga/dranei. I'm not denying that TFT had a lot of filler stuff like that. The actual stuff of importance was Orc/Horde centric. Ya know, Orcs and the Horde being the protagonists, and all. If it wasn't for setting up the soon to be Horde Factions and +1ing Arthas as the core Bad Guy for the franchise, there'd be little reason to ever mention the expansion. Tender Bender posted:Jaina? Malfurion? Tyrande? They all realized Medivh was right. Just like Thrall. They realized they were right by working with, and agreeing with, Thrall and his Horde. Especially the Night Elves who initially (and wrongly) opposed the hero and his faction. ThingOne posted:You're so wrong it's kind of incredible. Warcraft 3 is the story of Arthas and everything else that happens does so to bring him to the point where he becomes the Lich King. The story of Arthas becoming the Lich King is the bad guy's story. The good guy's story is the Orcish Horde. Failure to agree with that lays the path of madness that leads to having issue with Thrall saving the day regularly in WoW. MisterBibs fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Feb 2, 2017 |
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Feb 2, 2017 16:00
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Thrall/Orcs aren't even playable in TFT.
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Feb 2, 2017 16:29
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I mean this is all very fascinating Mister Bibs but the Orcs are barely in either of the Warcraft 3 Games, Reign of Chaos is Arthas' fall and how the world becomes screwed. Whilst Frozen Throne is all about what comes after and the eventual saving moment. But in all cases the Orcs are either doing their own thing and not really interacting with the other factions, or actively relying on the other factions to be the driving force. Jaina in particular is kind of the single most vital character in the game, because she is the one who leaves Arthas and ultimately the reason the Orcs are free of Mannoroth's Curse, as without her Grom would remain crazed. Thrall is only ever one part of the whole, which is kind of the point of Warcraft 3. It is an ensemble story with multiple heroes, multiple villains and a number of people who fall somewhere in the middle. This is because it's an RTS, and thus there cannot be a single hero or protagonist. Even in the one campaign where there is arguably a single hero, it isn't Thrall, it's Rexxar. But knowing you from the actual WoW lore thread there is no arguing with you, so instead I'll say this about the movie. The human half of the story may be the weaker half, but it is still somewhat necessary and if it'd been as good as the Orc half the movie as a whole would hold together much better. Especially as regardless of Durotan and the Frostwolves, a single tribe among the huge Horde, the Orcs are the villains of the movie. Even those who turn against Gul'Dan do so too late to make a difference to the destruction they've caused.
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Feb 2, 2017 16:31
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MisterBibs posted:Arthas's story is about his fall, a fall that represents the failure to heed the warning Thrall and the Orcs heeded. He's the failure state that the heroes and the hero's faction avoid. This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of storytelling. Someone being in a story doesn't mean the story is about them. And, again, literally nothing Thrall does isn't matched by Jaina and her group. She's also, you know, an active participant in the first half of the story.
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Feb 2, 2017 16:33
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e: screw it, we've been over this in the lore thread (Thrall and the Horde not the heroes of Warcraft?  People'll say anything to bait me, even madness stuff), so I'll just prune my responses to the movie.Lord_Magmar posted:Thrall is only ever one part of the whole, which is kind of the point of Warcraft 3... thus there cannot be a single hero or protagonist. I suppose with such a strange, unsupported first part, you'd believe the second. It's Thrall and his Horde, those that assist Thrall and his Horde, and the antagonists. Just because Jaina (et al) help Thrall out doesn't mean Thrall ain't the protagonist. There's a reason why babby Thrall is in the last scene of the movie. This movie introduced the Parents Of The Hero, the now-not-going-be-probably sequel features the Hero. It's Warcraft, and a movie where the hero isn't Thrall is a weaker one for it. Christ, this conversation started with someone actually suggesting they do the events of Warcraft 2. Why? You move on to the plot that matters. Lord_Magmar posted:The human half of the story may be the weaker half, but it is still somewhat necessary and if it'd been as good as the Orc half the movie as a whole would hold together much better. The weakness of the human half is that they tried to have both sides be protagonists against a third party. It's understandable, since they were trying to meld Warcraft 1 and Warcraft 3, but it was a failure state from the get-go. The human/alliance side aren't the protagonists, don't try and make them be. MisterBibs fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Feb 2, 2017 |
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Feb 2, 2017 17:11
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MisterBibs posted:I suppose with such a strange, unsupported first part, you'd believe the second. It's Thrall and his Horde, those that assist Thrall and his Horde, and the antagonists. Just because Jaina (et al) help Thrall out doesn't mean Thrall ain't the protagonist. If we use your logic, that the game is about a faction that doesn't appear until halfway through the game and receives as much or less screen time as three other factions, how does what you're saying above not apply to Tyrande/Furion and the elves, and Jaina and her alliance? Arthas isn't even the antagonist of WCIII/TFT, he's one of the protagonists. Tender Bender fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Feb 2, 2017 |
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Feb 2, 2017 17:59
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MisterBibs posted:There's a reason why babby Thrall is in the last scene of the movie. This movie introduced the Parents Of The Hero, the now-not-going-be-probably sequel features the Hero. It's Warcraft, and a movie where the hero isn't Thrall is a weaker one for it. Christ, this conversation started with someone actually suggesting they do the events of Warcraft 2. Why? You move on to the plot that matters. You cannot just move onto Warcraft 3 because without the context of the Orcs being invading blood-crazed monsters, which for the most part this movie does show, who lost and got locked up for it Thrall's story is actually weaker. The Orcs except for Durotan, the Frost Wolves and Garona, are the antagonists of this movie, but only because they need to set up the fact that the Orcs are at least Villainous for now, it isn't until they lose and get imprisoned that Thrall is allowed to come and lead them back to their old ways, as viewed through his lens. Also the Humans are absolutely the protagonists of this movie, it's weaker for it but the primary hero of this film is actually Kadghar, the guy who even in the game has become more important than Thrall. Considering Thrall has been the primary her of one expansion, Cataclysm, whilst Khadgar is currently at 2, Warlords and Legion. This is a movie about the first war, and in the first war the Orcs were invading monsters, the fact that this movie gives more context and cultural understanding of the Orcs doesn't change that the majority of the Horde are monsters for now. Honestly I wouldn't mind if they had the Second War just be the opener to the next movie, but they probably should at least use the chance to show off Deathwing and the Dragon stuff, there's plenty to do with the second war to make a strong movie. The Third game is actually the hardest to make a movie about, because there's no real central character to follow and the important storyline flows from Arthas to Jaina/Thrall to the Night Elves back to Arthas and so on and so forth. Tender Bender posted:Arthas isn't even the antagonist of WCIII/TFT, he's one of the protagonists. Also this is entirely true, Arthas is the primary protagonist of at least Reign of Chaos, because it's a game about his failures and descent into villainy. This doesn't make him the hero, that's Jaina considering what her story actually involves.
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Feb 3, 2017 00:20
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Lord_Magmar posted:You cannot just move onto Warcraft 3 because without the context of the Orcs being invading blood-crazed monsters, which for the most part this movie does show, who lost and got locked up for it Thrall's story is actually weaker. We already got the context we need, though? Garona has taken up the leadership of the Horde from killing the Alliance King, but the movie ends on the note that the Orcs and Humans are still gonna have to fight. We already know that even fel-juiced Orcs are honorable and are being steered into being monsters by Gul'dan, too. The only thing that would be painful to gloss over from War2 is Gul'dan dying. Otherwise, you can gloss over the entirety of War2 by having Doomhammer rue that even with Gul'dan's fel power, they still lost, and are suffering from withdrawl. It's War2, it was an excuse plot anyway. Lord_Magmar posted:The third game is actually the hardest to make a movie about, because there's no real central character to follow and the important storyline flows from Arthas to Jaina/Thrall to the Night Elves back to Arthas and so on and so forth. I think that with the Legion being the ultimate bad guy (plus, you're not getting that many movies to do a LK/Scourge movie and a Legion movie), you could totally get away with deciding to cut the Lich King stuff entirely, making the fight expressly about the Legion coming back directly, rather than through an intermediary Undead Scourge led by an Orc that wasn't even in the movie. All the chaos and death of the Scourge can be shifted to the Legion's first strike, and Thrall would have to work with the Alliance survivors to push the demons back. MisterBibs fucked around with this message at 01:58 on Feb 3, 2017 |
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Feb 3, 2017 01:50
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I don't think that the entire war between all of the main characters that this movie built up to, the rise and defeat of a major faction, and the deaths of at least two of the main characters, can be "glossed over". Also severely misreading the Warcraft fan base if you think the scourge/lich king is something to pass over in favor of a Legion invasion. Good point that Ner'zhul isn't in the movies, but for a film adaptation I think rolling Gul'dan into his role as the Lich King would be a smart move. Tender Bender fucked around with this message at 02:09 on Feb 3, 2017 |
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Feb 3, 2017 02:04
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Tender Bender posted:. That's what I was thinking to. Gul'dan pretty much disappears from the narrative once he's dead with only his skull ever really getting a mention (witch as the Litch king he would no longer need). So there's not much reason he couldn't take Ner'zhul's place, if nothing else it would cut down on characters they would need to introduce.
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Feb 3, 2017 03:47
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Honestly my hope about the third movie, would be two movies. One about Arthas' journey called Rise of the Prince/King/etc. and of course a movie about Thrall called Lord of the Clans or something. The man who has everything falls to evil and the Orc with nothing becomes the leader of one of the world powers would be a neat mirror to have as the final movie. Jaina is the binding point, who is in the first half of Artha's Movie and the second Half of Thrall's. And for all that he isn't the hero or the singular protagonist Thrall would be a good focal character for the Kalimdor side of the movie, because his story in freeing and leading the Orcs is something the game itself glossed over because it wasn't as important to the story they wanted to tell as Arthas entire plot. Which is kind of the point really. In Warcraft and Warcraft 2 the Orcs are the villains and evil, then Warcraft 3 turns this on it's head by making the human campaign the fall of Arthas and the Orc campaign about an Orc who is good, this is the big theme. No one is evil or good, it's about choice, I think. I mean the biggest reason why you can't have Gul'dan take Ner'zhul's place, is that you kind of need Gul'dan's skull for one of Illidan's big moments and he's the current hero of WoW itself, this entire expansion has been falling over itself to tell you how awesome Illidan is, was and will be. That said you could combine Illidan claiming the Skull with Arthas claiming the Frozen Throne.
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Feb 3, 2017 04:12
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You could make the skull literally anything though. Assuming they still did Mannaroth he could eat Mannaroth's skull or heart or whatever or just have him chug down the demon blood cocktail. Gul'dan Lich King would be smart for a number of reasons, a known and developed villain undergoing a huge loss/transformation to become a different kind of villain is cool and interesting.
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Feb 3, 2017 05:07
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Tender Bender posted:I don't think that the entire war between all of the main characters that this movie built up to, the rise and defeat of a major faction, and the deaths of at least two of the main characters, can be "glossed over". It can, because we've already screen a whole bunch of combat scenes between the two faction's iconic lowest-tier units slamming into each other. Why would you waste valuable time doing it for an entire movie? You're trying to get to a Thrall And Company Do Stuff movie as soon as you possibly can. Tender Bender posted:Good point that Ner'zhul isn't in the movies, but for a film adaptation I think rolling Gul'dan into his role as the Lich King would be a smart move. Thing is, the Lich King is a Legion intermediary. Looking at it from a movie producer's perspective (in this hypothetical world where we'd get multiple movie sequels), you've already got a finite amount of movies you can make. Which is the ultimate Bad Guy for the movie franchise? You've got fel magic and those that control it, which has been already set up in the first movie... or an intermediary bad guy whose fundamental trope - the undead - is worn thin. The game franchise can get away with it, because it needs to pump out expansions in perpetuity. But as a movie series? You're lucky to have a trilogy, cuts in plot have to be made. First movie is what we got, second one is Thrall's formation of the Horde as the Legion wrecks poo poo, the third movie is the Legion gets defeated. Not as comprehensive as the game series, but entirely workable. I'll give you credit, the Gul'dan idea is clever, but I think there's just one too many beats in this hypothetical. Maybe if they did a final-movie-in-too-parts thing (which I just noticed someone mentioning), but that's the only way I could see it working... and even then it just strikes me as opening yourself up to criticism that you've overly complicated the movie series.
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Feb 3, 2017 08:27
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You would have the fans going completely insane, if you go and make Gul'dan the Lich King.
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Feb 3, 2017 10:02
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Part of the problem with that is that Thrall does very little in Warcaft 3. The first thing he does is run away from the main plot, then it's mostly internal Orc stuff. You could tell a coherent version of Warcraft 3 that eliminates the Orcs entirely.THE BAR posted:You would have the fans going completely insane, if you go and make Gul'dan the Lich King. Not inherently a problem, if it works.
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Feb 3, 2017 10:25
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THE BAR posted:You would have the fans going completely insane, if you go and make Gul'dan the Lich King. Actually yeah this is probably the biggest thing, anything but Ner'zhul, Arthas, Bolvar as the Lich King would create a lot of bad will amongst the fan base. Even if they don't know Ner'zhul was the original Lich King they sure as gently caress know it isn't Gul'dan. I think perhaps the greatest issue is that the sacking of Stormwind hasn't happened yet, and that's kind of a big deal for why the Horde ends up where it is when Thrall comes to save/free them. Also whilst Garona may have won the Horde's respect I think Orgrim is probably going to end up Warchief, just because him having the position is kind of important for Thrall's story as well. Honestly if they do get a sequel the second war is kind of necessary to set up a bunch of the plot for Thrall and future movies, just because they need to introduce a bunch of concepts and ideas still, and we haven't gotten any stuff about the High Elves or Trolls yet and that's a tragedy considering that Warcraft 3 basically kills all but a small number of the High Elves. For that matter Lordaeron needs to be introduced and built up, otherwise there's no real emotional impact for the Legion/Scourge destroying it all anyway. Actually for that matter Varian and Arthas could both be easily introduced in a hypothetical second movie, which would actually be really useful for further movies too. Seeing as both of them have pretty important stories in the grand scheme of Warcraft, regardless of how well people actually liked Varian.
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Feb 3, 2017 10:37
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Part of the problem with that is that Thrall does very little in Warcaft 3. The rest of the problem is that the first three volumes of Warcraft lore are a tangled, retconned mess written by a hack as an afterthought to a popular RTS. Playing WC3 was like "lol this plot is arbitrary AND derivative, oh well gotta build more farms and then later get in some ladder play and tower D." That is just to say that the games were not exactly vetted against the quality of their story. As for WoW, the necessity of constantly releasing expansions combined with lazy writing created a matroska of unoriginal villains and then add in time loops and LOL its worse than a day-time soap opera.
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Feb 3, 2017 15:46
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MisterBibs posted:It can, because we've already screen a whole bunch of combat scenes between the two faction's iconic lowest-tier units slamming into each other. Why would you waste valuable time doing it for an entire movie? You're trying to get to a Thrall And Company Do Stuff movie as soon as you possibly can. It depends what story you're trying to tell. Is your goal to reach the Ultimate Good Vs Evil Conflict in the Warcraft Universe? Then I guess yeah cut out all the fat to fight Sargeras. Is your goal to tell a compelling story? Then you can definitely include the Scourge, and probably should, since it's at the core of the RTS game that most people have played, the most popular expansion, etc. There's a reason that Arthas is so drat iconic and Archimonde isn't. You could definitely tell the Reign of Chaos story without the undead, but I don't think anyone would want to see it. The games have been, very successfully, telling stories mostly without using the Legion as the ultimate bad guy, for 20+ years. Reign of Chaos culminates in the Legion invasion, which is just part of the whole, and aside from that the Legion has basically been a backstory element to drive or empower the villains, to lend credibility to them as a threat. This is totally fine and they work well as a worldbuilding tool, arguably much more so than as an onscreen threat. We're kind of dancing around the core problem with these movies (which, as you said, aren't going to get made anyway), which is that to tell them realistically in a film adaptation you'd have to strip out much of what makes them interesting in the first place.
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Feb 3, 2017 17:28
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It really would work better as a character-driven high-fantasy soap with one world-shattering arc simmering in the background per season that puts your favorite character's subplot at risk (I mean why cares about Deathwing? But the rising and falling fortunes of the Steamwheedles - now that is a vignette I want to watch every week).
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Feb 4, 2017 08:08
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So if Blizzard were to ever make a Starcraft movie, how do you think that would go over?
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Feb 4, 2017 11:22
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bad because sc2 was trash. warcraft was funner when it was goofier in the original two games. they shoulda made the movie like that and not WoW.
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Feb 4, 2017 14:25
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Aces High posted:So if Blizzard were to ever make a Starcraft movie, how do you think that would go over? The story as shown in the first Terran campaign, or the novelization of it, could make a pretty decent movie. But beyond that? I'm not sure you could do it well.
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Feb 5, 2017 07:20
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Aces High posted:So if Blizzard were to ever make a Starcraft movie, how do you think that would go over? Like a wet fart, even worse than Warcraft's resulting box office numbers. Starcraft doesn't have a third of the public awareness that the Warcraft brand has.
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Feb 5, 2017 18:57
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Aces High posted:So if Blizzard were to ever make a Starcraft movie, how do you think that would go over? Starship Troopers was great!
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Feb 5, 2017 19:17
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Hopefully they don't make the Thrall is a slave movie, because its story was so bad it didn't even work as an adventure game! And that's some low standards. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gslAG2OEO1c It might of also turned Thrall into Guybrush Threepwood also, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUNFrbpOSTE.
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Feb 5, 2017 19:58
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Tenzarin posted:Hopefully they don't make the Thrall is a slave movie, because its story was so bad it didn't even work as an adventure game! And that's some low standards. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gslAG2OEO1c It might of also turned Thrall into Guybrush Threepwood also, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUNFrbpOSTE. The Ten Commandments was great!
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Feb 5, 2017 21:04
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Aces High posted:So if Blizzard were to ever make a Starcraft movie, how do you think that would go over? Badly. My opinion: the best form that could take is a serialized 10-episode sci-fi show. If they could budget it...which I doubt. If competent writers embraced it as the wholesale genre ripoff of Aliens, Predator and Independence Day that SC1 was, it could be cool. If it's a desperate clusterfuck to reconcile all their expanded lore, gently caress it.
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Feb 6, 2017 02:03
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MisterBibs posted:Like a wet fart, even worse than Warcraft's resulting box office numbers. Starcraft doesn't have a third of the public awareness that the Warcraft brand has. Um, I'm not sure about that. Korea still loves SC in a big way. Warcraft is definitely bigger, but SC is not small by any amount. Also, Sci-Fi is very much 'in' at the moment. Xealot posted:Badly. My opinion: the best form that could take is a serialized 10-episode sci-fi show. If they could budget it...which I doubt. They'd need to get writers who were both familiar with the series, but not such superdorks that they think it's good.
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Feb 6, 2017 11:07
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well why not posted:They'd need to get writers who were both familiar with the series, but not such superdorks that they think it's good. soooooooooo just stick with the original story then? Maybe throw in a couple EU extras like how Kerrigan was responsible for assassinating Mengsk's parents (or whatever that was). I mean say what you will about the transformation that Warcraft went through between 2 and 3 I have yet to ever hear anyone say that the story in Starcraft and Brood War was "bad". I mean, we're not talking high art here but I feel like Starcraft was one of those examples everyone held up when they used to say "Blizzard is great; they make fun games that are challenging to play but also fun, and the story is nice as well"
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Feb 6, 2017 12:13
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I think if there were to be an adaptation of another Blizzard property, I'd put money on Overwatch getting some sort of animated feature first.
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Feb 6, 2017 12:18
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After the Warcraft movie I'm not sure the world can take a Starcraft movie.
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Feb 6, 2017 12:29
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dont even fink about it posted:After the Warcraft movie I'm not sure the world can take a Starcraft movie. Maybe they can give 33 year old Jim Raynor an adult son and have him tragically die to zerg as he is kept back from him by protoss force fields.
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Feb 6, 2017 18:48
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PlushCow posted:Maybe they can give 33 year old Jim Raynor an adult son and have him tragically die to zerg as he is kept back from him by protoss force fields. This was basically Kerrigan before they decided she was actually Raynor's TRUE LOVE.
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Feb 6, 2017 19:13
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