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Nothing says opposition like demanding changes to a bill but promise to vote for it anyway. Even if you believe that the referendum result means that every democratic party now has to support Brexit 100% the way Labour has acted with the A50 bill is just plain horrible.
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Feb 5, 2017 20:59
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jBrereton posted:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38872899 how about that no amendments policy eh boys uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh
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Feb 5, 2017 21:00
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Pissflaps posted:I sense another migraine is coming. The Guardian was floating a story about Abbots spokesperson repeatedly dodging the question of whether she'll follow the whip.
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Feb 5, 2017 21:00
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Skinty McEdger posted:The Guardian was floating a story about Abbots spokesperson repeatedly dodging the question of whether she'll follow the whip.
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Feb 5, 2017 21:01
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There are people in this thread who believe that Labour will force concessions out of the Tories on the article 50 vote by three line whipping for it and stating multiple times that they will vote for it even if they don't get amendments. It's hilarious and also pathetic.
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Feb 5, 2017 21:03
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Fangz posted:Osborne thinking that max austerity is the solution to all problems seems consistent with his previous positions, it didn't happen because Osborne stopped being Chancellor. In the long term the punishment budget will probably happen. It's a matter of when. Wait, you actually think Osbourne believes austerity will solve Britain's problems? You think he believes austerity helps people, rather than knowing his policies gently caress the country and the public and not caring because they help him and his mates? There's charitable and there's crushingly naive. Fangz posted:But you're shifting the goalposts, eh? The position that Osborne's predictions was a 'punishment budget' is a Leave position. Osborne created a projection of what a Brexit crash in 2019-2020 would mean and how he would address it in terms of spending cuts and tax rises. So how does this turn into a lie? Is the lie here that Osborne didn't actually think Brexit would lead to an economic crunch? Is the lie that Osborne is actually a secret Keynesian? Osbourne is well aware Brexit will harm the economy. He's also aware that the budget he proposed was a threat, rather than something that would actually come to pass. He was relying on people not knowing how the economy worked enough to think his budget was a possible scenario. Pissflaps posted:There are people in this thread who believe that Labour will force concessions out of the Tories on the article 50 vote by three line whipping for it and stating multiple times that they will vote for it even if they don't get amendments. It's hilarious and also pathetic. Let's see a quote to back that up. Most people are smart enough to know that how Labour votes has absolutely no impact on them getting amendments through.
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Feb 5, 2017 21:06
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spectralent posted:Cap got brainwashed, like basically everyone should've seen coming because, seriously, comic books. I kind of like the idea of Captain America being just the sort of genius loci of the USA and so he thinks whatever the populace thinks.
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Feb 5, 2017 21:10
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Only 1 Tory rebelled on the first vote. There was a theory in this thread that with Labour whipping to vote for it, it meant Tory rebels could vote how the liked with no repercussions, since Labour would help it pass. This has been shown not to be true. Labour are legitimately worried about how they would appear to the public in the press, since we already saw how the press treated those who voted against in the last vote.
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Feb 5, 2017 21:11
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mehall posted:Only 1 Tory rebelled on the first vote. I don't remember that theory being posted in this thread.
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Feb 5, 2017 21:16
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OwlFancier posted:I kind of like the idea of Captain America being just the sort of genius loci of the USA and so he thinks whatever the populace thinks. This is a pretty cool idea but Cap's just some guy who's vulnerable to mind control mehall posted:Labour are legitimately worried about how they would appear to the public in the press, since we already saw how the press treated those who voted against in the last vote. Labour did literally have someone killed for opposing the populist right before they were emboldened by winning and the press putting out hit lists. It'd make me antsy.
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Feb 5, 2017 21:17
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jabby posted:Wait, you actually think Osbourne believes austerity will solve Britain's problems? You think he believes austerity helps people, rather than knowing his policies gently caress the country and the public and not caring because they help him and his mates? Yes, I do actually Osborne believes austerity solves Britain's problems as he defines them, with problems being stuff like 'high levels of debt'. I do not consider him a mastermind, rather he's an idiot together with the majority of the country. There's an element of malice as well because he doesn't consider the worst consequences (to the poor) as a terribly bad thing, okay. But as I'll say below, the key point isn't whether Osborne honestly believes this, but what he thinks the general public believe. quote:Osbourne is well aware Brexit will harm the economy. He's also aware that the budget he proposed was a threat, rather than something that would actually come to pass. He was relying on people not knowing how the economy worked enough to think his budget was a possible scenario. Okay, work through this. The key question is: Does Osborne believe that increased austerity is seen by the UK public as a reasonable response to a financial downturn? 1. If he does believe that, then how is this claim a threat? He's saying he'll do what most people think is the right thing when the crash happens. 2. If he doesn't believe that, then why the gently caress is he Chancellor? Why are the Tories considered better than Labour at handling the economy? How did he very successfully use the economic downturn to justify a series of austerity measures? And the proposed budget is not just a possible scenario, it's a very likely scenario. If the public finances get squeezed, the right wing press get antsy about debt, and boom austerity measures. This is basically the constant of UK economic policy for the last two governments. To pretend the Tory government would do an about face and adopt Keynesian economics for the good of the country, and undo all the years of austerity... that would be a lie. Fangz fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Feb 5, 2017 |
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Feb 5, 2017 21:17
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With the best will in the world, it's a weird loving time for Corbyn's labour to start worrying about what the press thinks after weathering a long and co-ordinated campaign of negative media coverage from every conceivable direction. Labour need to actually set out a concrete agenda and decide what they're all about, rather than spending all their time on the defensive, slowly withering under the onslaught of a hostile press.
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Feb 5, 2017 21:21
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I think labour is about pandering to Corbyn's ego.
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Feb 5, 2017 21:24
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mehall posted:Only 1 Tory rebelled on the first vote. Rubbish. No tory was going to stick their head above the parapet if they didn't believe they could win, and with Labour 3 line whipping to get it through they were always going to go with the party. The thing about parliamentary rebellions is they only happen when they will work, because defying your party often comes with severe consequences that no MP will want to suffer unless they've won.
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Feb 5, 2017 21:30
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jBrereton posted:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38872899 how about that no amendments policy eh boys corbyn has those brexiteers right where he want them
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Feb 5, 2017 21:30
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TomViolence posted:With the best will in the world, it's a weird loving time for Corbyn's labour to start worrying about what the press thinks after weathering a long and co-ordinated campaign of negative media coverage from every conceivable direction. Labour need to actually set out a concrete agenda and decide what they're all about, rather than spending all their time on the defensive, slowly withering under the onslaught of a hostile press. Again, talking about loonie leftie ideas for having trains that aren't poo poo hasn't gotten people shot in the last year.
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Feb 5, 2017 21:33
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Fangz posted:Okay, work through this. The key question is: Does Osborne believe that increased austerity is seen by the UK public as a reasonable response to a financial downturn? Yes. Fangz posted:1. If he does believe that, then how is this claim a threat? He's saying he'll do what most people think is the right thing when the crash happens. Because even though the public believes it's the right thing for the economy (incorrectly) they understand the concept of higher taxes affecting them personally. It's not rocket science. Fangz posted:And the proposed budget is not just a possible scenario, it's a very likely scenario. If the public finances get squeezed, the right wing press get antsy about debt, and boom austerity measures. This is basically the constant of UK economic policy for the last two governments. The budget wasn't just about austerity, it also included higher taxes. A Tory government would almost always rather see the economy suffer than raise taxes.
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Feb 5, 2017 21:35
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spectralent posted:Again, talking about loonie leftie ideas for having trains that aren't poo poo hasn't gotten people shot in the last year. True point, and it's unsettling to say the least that we have the press all but directly putting out hits on people they don't like. Still, I don't think being visibly intimidated by the bad newspaper men and cowed into silent acquiescence with the sitting government is a good look.
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Feb 5, 2017 21:44
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TomViolence posted:True point, and it's unsettling to say the least that we have the press all but directly putting out hits on people they don't like. Still, I don't think being visibly intimidated by the bad newspaper men and cowed into silent acquiescence with the sitting government is a good look. No but it's undeniably pretty effective. In lieu of any strong motivating push to unify, which the shambolic response doesn't give, it seems like people are mostly keeping their heads down. I'm just appalled it's gotten this far; in lieu of any media controls in the face of serious crime it appears the press are now taking to open sedition. Levenson might well have been our last chance to cull the press's power.
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Feb 5, 2017 22:00
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Pissflaps posted:I think labour is about pandering to Corbyn's ego. lol if there's one thing it is not about it's that. You can call him misguided, incompetent, or as useful as someone over the age of consent to Jimmy Savile, but if you think it's about his career or ego, you're barking.
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Feb 5, 2017 22:00
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If Labour's about pandering to Corbyn's ego he's apparently a huge masochist given most of them have spent his entire leadership term trying to openly sabotage him.
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Feb 5, 2017 22:03
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Mister Adequate posted:lol if there's one thing it is not about it's that. You can call him misguided, incompetent, or as useful as someone over the age of consent to Jimmy Savile, but if you think it's about his career or ego, you're barking. It was seeing him suddenly become animated when he had the opportunity to preach to the converted to vote for him again. He seemed to love that.
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Feb 5, 2017 22:07
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I wonder if there might be a difference between a leadership contest and functioning as leader of the labour party that might elicit differing responses from someone.
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Feb 5, 2017 22:07
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Christ alive, you lot, why do you still respond to Pissflaps?
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Feb 5, 2017 22:09
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TomViolence posted:Christ alive, you lot, why do you still respond to Pissflaps? battered spouse syndrome
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Feb 5, 2017 22:11
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Kurtofan posted:corbyn has those brexiteers right where he want them in power and walking all over him? I mean Corbyn has been moderately effective at becoming and remaining Labour leader and generally being  , but then he just kinda stopped.
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Feb 5, 2017 22:15
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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OwlFancier posted:I wonder if there might be a difference between a leadership contest and functioning as leader of the labour party that might elicit differing responses from someone. Because he enjoys doing the first bit but not the second. TomViolence posted:Christ alive, you lot, why do you still respond to Pissflaps? 24% of your posts in this months thread are about or in reply to me. You can't have my attention all to yourself.
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Feb 5, 2017 22:16
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TomViolence posted:Christ alive, you lot, why do you still respond to Pissflaps? People think they can convince a man without beliefs to change his mind
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Feb 5, 2017 22:20
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feedmegin posted:Why would you vote UKIP these days, I guess? They achieved their aim, we're leaving, so there's no reason not to just vote Tory instead. I suppose it depends on where you live. Places where people who would be sympathetic to the ideas but will never vote for the Conservatives out of 30 years of sheer anti-Thatcher inertia; former seaside towns with aging populations, places where people won't vote for Labour because they think Labour only cares about students, immigrants and Londoners, but won't vote for the Tories because they think the Tories are out of touch snobs and poshos. UKIP could potentially get their foot in the door in places like that; they could have become a home for people who were right-wing but didn't like the Tories, corresponding to the stereotype which developed in the Kennedy era that that Lib Dems were for people who were left-wing but didn't like Labour. But it won't happen in either such place, or in any other places, because UKIP, as a party, are both poorly-organised and poorly-led.
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Feb 5, 2017 22:27
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TomViolence posted:Christ alive, you lot, why do you still respond to Pissflaps? Periodically I reply to someone then realise the person they quoted was pissflaps. This fills me with deep shame, and I am sorry.
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Feb 5, 2017 22:29
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I'm not going to think ukip is done until nuttall loses
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Feb 5, 2017 22:33
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Namtab posted:I'm not going to think ukip is done until nuttall loses You won't have to wait long for him to lose because Labour is almost certainly winning both of these by-elections, but what you need to keep in mind is that Nuttall losing will almost certainly going to be Farage's pretext for coming back and retaking the helm again.
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Feb 5, 2017 22:36
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Wheat Loaf posted:You won't have to wait long for him to lose because Labour is almost certainly winning both of these by-elections, but what you need to keep in mind is that Nuttall losing will almost certainly going to be Farage's pretext for coming back and retaking the helm again. I'm less worried about the guy who failed to get elected at least 8 times than I am about skip actually getting elected in leave areas.
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Feb 5, 2017 22:39
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jabby posted:Yes. Increased taxes would be less damaging than trying to do it through spending cuts alone, so you're saying Osborne lied by saying that Brexit would be less bad than it would actually be. Let me restate what you are saying. Osborne lied by saying that the brexit crash would lead to tax and spending changes, when in reality if he was honest he would say it would probably lead to spending cuts which would be much more cruel and lead to much worse damage. This is a horrible deceit that means that REMAIN ALSO LIED, thus neutering any protest (from people who had nothing to do with Osborne) about Leave's claims to deliver ponies to everyone when they actually are going to kill their babies. Fangz fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Feb 5, 2017 |
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Feb 5, 2017 22:58
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I'm not even sure Farage wants back in at this point. He got what he wanted, he's got some lucrative side gigs out of it, and possibly the ear of the mad king of the west. Brexit is going to be a shitshow and he can influence it from the outside by being a pundit, without the taint of being involved, and he can sweep back in when the time is right for him to 'pick up the pieces' or whatever like some returning heroPissflaps posted:I don't remember that theory being posted in this thread. I remember posting that theory
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Feb 5, 2017 22:59
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baka kaba posted:I remember posting that theory That explains why I don't remember it being posted.
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Feb 5, 2017 23:10
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TomViolence posted:Christ alive, you lot, why do you still respond to Pissflaps?
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Feb 5, 2017 23:26
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Fangz posted:Increased taxes would be less damaging than trying to do it through spending cuts alone, so you're saying Osborne lied by saying that Brexit would be less bad than it would actually be. I don't know why you have such a bee in your bonnet about this, but yes the fact that Osborne lied about his budget and the fact that Cameron lied about not resigning does taint the Remain side. I'm not saying it's particularly rational, I'm saying it's a genuine argument that's being used that's hard to counter in a TV interview. Not that it really matters, because telling the public you wanted a referendum but were totally shocked that the other side lied is such a loving non-starter that it's hard to imagine anyone thinking otherwise. People know politicians lie. The politicians that voted for the referendum are aware politicians lie. Literally the only credible argument against the referendum result is that the decision should never have been given to the British people, and you can't make that argument if you voted for the referendum.
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Feb 5, 2017 23:28
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http://www.bmgresearch.co.uk/polling-results-used-itvs-peston-sunday/ Media in misrepresenting facts related to Corbyn shocker! E: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoZloTEbE3s&t=536s Clip in question
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Feb 5, 2017 23:27
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Where are the 'polling results'? That word cloud? I think BMG are talking bobbins. edit: That data is from this YouGov research last year that seems to have been shown to Labour MPs recently - presumably by Labour themselves. Only Corbyn describes it as 'leaked' and it doesn't show the usual polling info because it's not a poll. I've cracked the loving case. Pissflaps fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Feb 5, 2017 |
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Feb 5, 2017 23:32
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