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Fangz posted:I'm not naive about the potential to stop brexit, even now. I think the priority is to build on the anger many remain voters now feel, and whether many leavers now feel, about the vast amount of fuckage that is coming this way due to this decision, and not to betray them by repeatedly emphasizing that their opinions don't matter at all. Yep. This. Right now the only (UK wide) party doing this is the Lib Dems. And they're the Lib Dems.
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Feb 6, 2017 23:28
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Namtab posted:If only Owen Smith were the leader Said nobody, ever, Owen Smith included.
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Feb 6, 2017 23:29
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Fangz posted:This will basically be a second Iraq war vote. If Labour doesn't fight this, when are they going to start fighting? The argument for their surrender on this issue can be extended to a shitload more. You are basically establishing a precedent for full capitulation. I too remember how the Tories are constantly pillioried for voting for Iraq while in opposition, and take the majority of the blame for us going to war.
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Feb 6, 2017 23:30
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Gorn Myson posted:The opposition to this idea is "lets just follow the Conservatives and maybe, possibly, if we cross out fingers hard enough, we might be able to mitigate the damage". Well no, the opposition is "let's not position ourselves against the current public support for Brexit, but work on representing those people and pushing for a better version than the government is willing to deliver, and hold them to account when they fail" The best case scenario is people getting more and more opposed to the real deal, so that when the time comes, it's politically untenable to actually push the button - and hopefully Labour are in government at that point. And at worst, we get a less damaging version of Brexit. And Labour wants to gain support and put pressure on the process by making clear and popular points without "but you're just opposed to the whole thing" being used to deflect every criticism I mean whether it will work is a different story, but that's the general idea. The pissflaps vision is Corbyn making the A50 vote fail using some Matrix-style powers, or Corbyn going back in time to change the whole narrative behind the referendum, or anything else where it's all Corbyn's fault and everything would have totally worked out otherwise
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Feb 6, 2017 23:30
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Pissflaps posted:I wouldn't say it was his fault, but he certainly shares the blame. Corbyn did far more appearances arguing for Remain than other Labour members did and yet the press covered the other members more, he couldn't control that. Gorn Myson posted:I like how the resistance to the idea of opposing Brexit is that "it would empower the right". In the mean time, the Tories have pushed even further right than they have done in the recent past and they're getting nothing but favourable press over it and they're leagues ahead of any opposition in the polls. On top of this, Farage and Ukip still get a lot of press that is affectionate to their views. Actually I think the resistance to the idea of opposing Brexit is that the general population was directly asked what they wanted and they wanted Brexit. Now there's a hell of a lot of reasons to criticise that as a reason for doing it but instead everyone is basically repeating the same arguments as before the vote, including demanding a rerun later on, which really does just seem to be a case of 'I can't believe I lost' rather than any more developed arguments about why it shouldn't be done.
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Feb 6, 2017 23:31
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forkboy84 posted:It cuts out anyone who has to meet rent. So yeah, you've got to be from either a family where your folks can afford to pay for you to live in London or commuting distance from London, or live with parents who already live in that area. So yes, it's certainly not going to be only beneficial to those from a well off background, but it remains a fact that these work experience/CV padding things are often hugely beneficial to people and are largely restricted to those who are already from a background where they can afford to go two weeks without being paid. That's not an assumption, that's a fact. It's a very bad thing. It does nothing more than work to entrench inequality further. Yes, it's a common practice for lots of companies, for MPs, and yes, it's hugely problematic in every case. I am deeply opposed to it. I think wealth inequality is important, but racial inequality is also important, and the trade off is necessary here. There's large minority communities in London that can and do benefit from this and having their voices heard is important. Other schemes can focus on the poor.
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Feb 6, 2017 23:32
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jabby posted:I too remember how the Tories are constantly pillioried for voting for Iraq while in opposition, and take the majority of the blame for us going to war. I remember how the Tories were able to turn supporting the Iraq war into electoral success. namesake posted:Corbyn did far more appearances arguing for Remain than other Labour members did and yet the press covered the other members more, he couldn't control that. Probably for the best. He was mumbling, unconvincing and shite. Because he was lying. baka kaba posted:The best case scenario is people getting more and more opposed to the real deal, so that when the time comes, it's politically untenable to actually push the button - and hopefully Labour are in government at that point. Jesus christ youre not paying attention  Corbyn wants Brexit he would push the loving button.
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Feb 6, 2017 23:33
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baka kaba posted:Well no, the opposition is "let's not position ourselves against the current public support for Brexit, but work on representing those people and pushing for a better version than the government is willing to deliver, and hold them to account when they fail" You have to lead public opinion sometimes. Especially if public opinion is only narrowly in favour of a position. You have to look through the lies and bullshit and realise, no, I am going to take the right position on this and in a few years you'll see I was right.
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Feb 6, 2017 23:34
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"I'd rate the EU as seven... seven and a half... no seven... out of ten" - the most powerful endorsement of the EU and alternative narrative for the left within the EU framework ever delivered
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Feb 6, 2017 23:35
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Fangz posted:I think wealth inequality is important, but racial inequality is also important, and the trade off is necessary here. There's large minority communities in London that can and do benefit from this and having their voices heard is important. Other schemes can focus on the poor. What about people from poor minority communities in Birmingham, in Manchester, in Glasgow, in Bristol? Unpaid internships, even under the excuse of racial equality, are inexcusable. I'm actually staggered someone in UKMT outside of standard contrarians would try to defend them.
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Feb 6, 2017 23:38
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jBrereton posted:"I'd rate the EU as seven... seven and a half... no seven... out of ten" - the most powerful endorsement of the EU and alternative narrative for the left within the EU framework ever delivered The left shouldn't be supporting the EU, it should be supporting freedom of movement for the planet and not the freedom of labour to move across Europe.
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Feb 6, 2017 23:38
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For Nigel Farage's many faults he is a very well dressed guy. That's how you expect British people to dress. What's the point of being British at all if you're not going to dress like that all the time anyway?
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Feb 6, 2017 23:38
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Fangz posted:You have to lead public opinion sometimes. Especially if public opinion is only narrowly in favour of a position. You have to look through the lies and bullshit and realise, no, I am going to take the right position on this and in a few years you'll see I was right. Which is a fine argument for allowing Labour MPs to vote against A50, but not for subjecting the entire party to yet another round of evisceration by the overwhelmingly pro-brexit media in this country for no gain. The argument that brexit is stupid has been made and lost, however correct it may be. Making the same argument isn't going to change anyone's mind until the actual playing field changes, which won't occur until A50 is invoked and we end up actually trying to negotiate.
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Feb 6, 2017 23:39
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jBrereton posted:"I'd rate the EU as seven... seven and a half... no seven... out of ten" - the most powerful endorsement of the EU and alternative narrative for the left within the EU framework ever delivered Out of interest how would you defend the EU from a left-wing perspective that isn't a negative about leaving but a positive about staying?
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Feb 6, 2017 23:42
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forkboy84 posted:What about people from poor minority communities in Birmingham, in Manchester, in Glasgow, in Bristol? Unpaid internships, even under the excuse of racial equality, are inexcusable. I'm actually staggered someone in UKMT outside of standard contrarians would try to defend them. More non-white people in journalism, in the age of Trump and Brexit, is a vast and important good, and it's comparatively unimportant if most likely they'll only come from say, Tower Hamlets and not Moss Side. The symbolic stand doesn't make much difference in this day and age. No one can list the newspapers that don't do unpaid internships. OwlFancier posted:Which is a fine argument for allowing Labour MPs to vote against A50, but not for subjecting the entire party to yet another round of evisceration by the overwhelmingly pro-brexit media in this country for no gain. The argument that brexit is stupid will be made slowly and painfully over the next decades. We should stop giving a poo poo about the pro-brexit media. Fangz fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Feb 6, 2017 |
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Feb 6, 2017 23:42
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Pissflaps posted:I remember how the Tories were able to turn supporting the Iraq war into electoral success. I remember nobody giving a poo poo which way the Tories voted on Iraq. Sure if they opposed it they might have been able to spin some good publicity in hindsight, but it's not like supporting it put them in a worse position than Labour, which rightly took the blame for actually being the ones in government.
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Feb 6, 2017 23:46
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Tesseraction posted:Out of interest how would you defend the EU from a left-wing perspective that isn't a negative about leaving but a positive about staying? You might be able to argue that international unions are probably a practical necessity when it comes to facilitating any sort of free movement and that predation upon that by Capital is sort of inevitable as long as there are predatory capitalist forces, and thus the EU does probably represent the best hope for internationalist free movement, or at least any other arrangement would probably not be free of its problems with free movement. Fangz posted:The argument that brexit is stupid will be made slowly and painfully over the next decades. We should stop giving a poo poo about the pro-brexit media. Very probably so, I concur. However I doubt it will change anyone's mind, the british public are not known for their ability to admit to being wrong, though I would anticipate increased prevalence from younger, pro-remain voices as the decades roll on. However pretending the press don't exist seems silly when they effectively set our national agenda. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Feb 6, 2017 |
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Feb 6, 2017 23:47
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jabby posted:I remember nobody giving a poo poo which way the Tories voted on Iraq. The difference is nobody was surprised that the Tories backed the war in Iraq. Not sure you can say the same about Labour backing Brexit.
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Feb 6, 2017 23:47
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Folks like me are not just going to forget that Labour prioritised not getting eviscerated by the right wing media over representing the views of the people who voted for them. Labour is loving hosed. EDIT: People didn't care that the tories voted for the war because their voters supported it. But the Lib Dems did turn their opposition to the war to electoral advantage, in the US Obama's opposition was a major advantage for him, and the Blairite support for the war basically hosed them forever.
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Feb 6, 2017 23:49
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Fangz posted:You have to lead public opinion sometimes. Especially if public opinion is only narrowly in favour of a position. You have to look through the lies and bullshit and realise, no, I am going to take the right position on this and in a few years you'll see I was right. It's not that narrow anymore, all the recent polling says that people want some form of Brexit - there's a resignation there, but that's where we are Taking a wildly unpopular stance (not in numbers, in the sheer amount of vitriol and demonisation that would be aimed at Labour) and then later going "see we were right and you were wrong" isn't a vote-winner. People just aren't rational like that. Labour are trying to be persuasive and take a position of "we all want the best outcome" and bring the electorate along with them. It's easier to do that as part of the in-group. They're playing the long game here Pissflaps posted:Jesus christ youre not paying attention 
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Feb 6, 2017 23:49
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baka kaba posted:It's not that narrow anymore, all the recent polling says that people want some form of Brexit - there's a resignation there, but that's where we are Show your working. Fangz posted:Folks like me are not just going to forget that Labour prioritised not getting eviscerated by the right wing media over representing the views of the people who voted for them. Labour is loving hosed. This.
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Feb 6, 2017 23:50
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Fangz posted:Folks like me are not just going to forget that Labour prioritised not getting eviscerated by the right wing media over representing the views of the people who voted for them. Labour is loving hosed. That seems like wilful stupidity to be honest.
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Feb 6, 2017 23:50
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OwlFancier posted:That seems like wilful stupidity to be honest. Your arguments for Labour turning pro brexit are the same that the Lib Dems used for going into coalition with the Tories in 2010.
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Feb 6, 2017 23:51
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spiderbot posted:I think 'culture war' vs 'economics and equality' is a false dichotomy though - people/ communities who feel they are in a lovely situation with no way out and no chance of outside help are going to turn inwards, and part of that is going to be increased suspicion of outsiders and more extreme punishment for insiders who transgress. True, it's definitely not a strict divide (and treating it as such is unhelpful), but I also don't think that "in a lovely (economic) situation" fully explains things here. For one, it doesn't provide any explanation for why anyone who isn't in a lovely economic position would vote for Brexit. There's often (nearly always, in fact) a tendency amongst lefty types - I'm not don't think you did this by the way, but someone else in the thread, and I'm as guilty as anyone for doing this generally - to sort of knee-jerk assume that everything is and can only be a function of class/material circumstance, and that this is the only explanation worth discussing, but the article directly addresses this point: quote:To a certain extent, using the level of educational qualifications as a measure combines both class and age factors, with working class and older adults both tending to be less well qualified. Even when two people are working the same job, from the same background, in the same material circumstance - whether lovely or non-lovely - it's education that more strongly correlates with behaviour in this case. This is what suggests to me a kind of culture war dynamic, since it suggests it's more about differing principles or beliefs rather than a (theoretically shared) response to economic/class status. Bearing in mind that this doesn't discount class as a very important factor and that this is all by no means anything new in British politics, but I guess what's struck me about the vote and its fallout is just how powerful that cultural rift can be, and how it's been in part disguised or easily ignored by the way our institutional party politics functions. The current crisis consuming Labour isn't (just) about the differences between economic liberals and socialists, but also about how Labour constituencies are in large part not culturally aligned with the Labour party's values (at least to the degree that these cultural values can be inferred/wildly extrapolated from the referendum vote). Also, worryingly if entirely anecdotally, I think attitudes are hardening and becoming more entrenched, and will continue to do so regardless of the economic outlook (which will probably be shitter and even more unequal due to Brexit)
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Feb 6, 2017 23:54
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Pissflaps posted:Your arguments for Labour turning pro brexit are the same that the Lib Dems used for going into coalition with the Tories in 2010. "I'm nick clegg and I want to sit at the big table!" ?
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Feb 6, 2017 23:53
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Supporting momentarily popular things you don't believe in that you know will be bad and unpopular later, because the press might be ~mean~ is the most disgusting political opinion I've seen all day, and I've been keeping up with US news. Seriously, wtf?
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Feb 6, 2017 23:56
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Pissflaps posted:Show your working. 
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Feb 6, 2017 23:55
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Fangz posted:Supporting momentarily popular things you don't believe in that you know will be bad and unpopular later, because the press might be ~mean~ is the most disgusting political opinion I've seen all day, and I've been keeping up with US news. Seriously, wtf? Conceding an argument because you lost it and your opposition has only been emboldened by that while looking for an alternative angle of attack is not what you are describing and you are fully aware of that. Repeating the original Remain arguments in lieu of attempting to prove the government's inability to actually deliver on their promises is foolish.
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Feb 6, 2017 23:57
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OwlFancier posted:Conceding an argument because you lost it and your opposition has only been emboldened by that while looking for an alternative angle of attack is not what you are describing and you are fully aware of that. You have not lost the argument until you choose to concede.
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Feb 6, 2017 23:58
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Fangz posted:You have not lost the argument until you choose to concede. Of course you can lose the drat argument, you don't win by refusing to accept that your arguments have been defeated in debate. If you repeat the same argument when the discussion has accepted it as beaten you do not win the debate, you get ignored.
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Feb 7, 2017 00:00
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I'm seeing 61% of people not wanting it or wanting the best of a lovely situation. That is not 'wanting some form of Brexit'. More Leave voters have moved to the anti/mitigation stance than Remainers have moved to Hard Brexit. Blindly backing Brexit is dumb as poo poo.
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Feb 7, 2017 00:01
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You don't have to win an argument to be right.
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Feb 7, 2017 00:00
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hakimashou posted:You don't have to win an argument to be right. Being right counts for gently caress all, however. If being right made a difference we'd all be living in a communist utopia by now.
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Feb 7, 2017 00:02
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OwlFancier posted:Of course you can lose the drat argument, you don't win by refusing to accept that your arguments have been defeated in debate. If you repeat the same argument when the discussion has accepted it as beaten you do not win the debate, you get ignored. Are we worried about Labour being 'eviscerated', or are we worried about Labour being ignored?
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Feb 7, 2017 00:01
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Fangz posted:No one can list the newspapers that don't do unpaid internships. I say with 90% certainty that The Morning Star doesn't have unpaid internships. Anyway, this is a bad excuse. Internships, as The Guardian's writers have admitted, are terrible. While I agree there does need to be a broader representation of minorities in journalism, that's hardly unique to race. Journalism is wholly unrepresentative of Britain as a whole. And going purely by population, the poor are much more unrepresented in that profession (& most other high prestige or high pay jobs). Hell, the only groups not over-represented are those that attended independent schools & those that attended Oxbridge. Anyway, I'll stop now because we're just going over the same ground and it's probably not interesting to read.
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Feb 7, 2017 00:01
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Fangz posted:Are we worried about Labour being 'eviscerated', or are we worried about Labour being ignored? Why do you suppose the two are mutually exclusive?
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Feb 7, 2017 00:03
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The trouble with getting het-up and opposing Labour is that you're effectively siding with the tories and UKIP who caused this mess in the first place, Fangz. Corbyn is a democrat, as you can see from the various stances he has taken over his long career as a politician, and he considers the referendum binding even if it legally isn't. Brexit is a no-win situation for him: * You can whip against Article 50, in which case there'd be someone in this thread saying how it just goes to show that Corbyn doesn't respect the will of the British people and should resign in favour of a right-wing candidate * You can abstain or offer a free vote, in which case there'd be someone in this thread saying how it just goes to show that Corbyn has no convictions and can't offer real leadership, and should resign in favour of a right-wing candidate * You can whip in favour of Article 50, in which case there'd be someone in this thread saying how it just goes to show that Corbyn was in favour of Brexit all along, and should resign in favour of a right-wing candidate It's almost as though there's a right-wing narrative for every occasion, and by abandoning the first left-wing leader of a major political party we've had in decades all you'll be saying is that the UKIP, tory and Parliamentary Labour Party tactics we've seen over the last couple of years are the kind of politics you'll either support or at the very least not oppose. I don't think that'll work out for you, or for me.
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Feb 7, 2017 00:03
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OwlFancier posted:Why do you suppose the two are mutually exclusive? Because right now Labour is a loving joke. Being attacked by the press is an improvement from a party that might as well not exist. As Trump shows, sometimes the route to power is via being hated. Gort posted:The trouble with getting het-up and opposing Labour is that you're effectively siding with the tories and UKIP who caused this mess in the first place, Fangz. Corbyn is a democrat, as you can see from the various stances he has taken over his long career as a politician, and he considers the referendum binding even if it legally isn't. Fangz fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Feb 7, 2017 |
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Feb 7, 2017 00:04
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Fangz posted:Because right now Labour is a loving joke. Being attacked by the press is an improvement from a party that might as well not exist. As Trump shows, sometimes the route to power is via being hated. Trump won because his platform is populist authoritarian garbage which appals to angry idiots. You can't make a pro-remain argument based on actual facts that fits that mold.
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Feb 7, 2017 00:06
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Fangz posted:Being that kind of democrat is moronic. While alternatively I can support Trump, terrorists who shoot MPs in the street, and the tactics of the PLP.
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Feb 7, 2017 00:07
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