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Bates posted:Some of us have better things to do than walking around giant warehouses looking for things deliberately placed to maximize the time you spend there. If you think it's a good use of your time then more power to you but it's not that weird that many prefer to hang with their kids or to study, work, nap etc. Going along on grocery shopping trips is beneficial for kids. It helps them grow up and not be goons who have to rationalize away every task that might expose them to strangers.
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Feb 7, 2017 00:16
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You understand that the groceries aren't delivered by a robot, right Like, this is a really stupid derail and I feel bad for continuing it, but the idea that anyone sees grocery shopping as a social activity is mind blowing to me. If I could have the food magically appear in my kitchen I would absolutely do that because I really don't need to be wasting any more of my day on buying poo poo than I already do.
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Feb 7, 2017 00:24
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I happen to be legally blind so I can't just drive myself down to the grocery store and so is my mother. Can't exactly do anything about it until somebody figures out retina transplants. Grocery delivery is reasonable-ish here through Shop 'n Save but it's considerably cheaper to go shopping with my aunt who can drive us to Aldi's... and is also very involved in things at her church so shopping with her has to be scheduled around it all. It's not impossible to avoid being a shut-in in my shoes but when you either walk or take the bus everywhere in a city where more than a few people are not fond of buses or the people who typically ride them it's pretty easy to do it if you haven't got some obligation to leave the house for already set up that day. As for the vending machines, yeah okay the crowbars were overboard but drink codes are things people have spent time on figuring out before and I doubt it'd be easy to catch someone doing that from glancing at your phone. Have people really not ever had a machine take their money and refuse to give them what they paid for? There isn't always a customer number you can call on the side of the machine to get your money back in 4 weeks or whatever on these things either.
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Feb 7, 2017 00:41
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Going along on grocery shopping trips is beneficial for kids. It helps them grow up and not be goons who have to rationalize away every task that might expose them to strangers. I don't need to go grocery shopping to interact with strangers - I do that through hobbies, volunteer work and various clubs. If shopping is an important part of your social life then you should of course continue to do that. Ignatius M. Meen posted:I happen to be legally blind so I can't just drive myself down to the grocery store and so is my mother. Yeah me too. I started doing home deliveries because it was a goddamn ordeal every time I had people over and had to lug everything around on foot or bicycle.
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Feb 7, 2017 01:39
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Paradoxish posted:You understand that the groceries aren't delivered by a robot, right Yes, going out in society is a social activity. Maybe you trudge and sulk and shrink away hissing anytime someone makes eye contact, but I know the cashiers who work at my store and talk to them, and frequently run into people I know or have some reason to chat with the other people there. I wonder just how much of human existence you've decided you're too good for. Bates posted:I don't need to go grocery shopping to interact with strangers - I do that through hobbies, volunteer work and various clubs. If shopping is an important part of your social life then you should of course continue to do that. That's easy mode, yo. You should develop skills on coping with strangers when you don't have a structured activity and someone else making the introductions for you. And PSA: If you don't teach your kids how to shop for food they'll grow up to be fat takeout addicts like you. Tiny Brontosaurus fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Feb 7, 2017 |
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Feb 7, 2017 01:42
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Paradoxish posted:You understand that the groceries aren't delivered by a robot, right These six-wheeled robots are about to start delivering food in the US
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Feb 7, 2017 02:12
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New York Post ran an article about Amazon's physical store ambitions. https://nypost.com/2017/02/05/inside-amazons-robot-run-supermarket-that-needs-just-3-human-workers/ Things like this scare the hell out of me. We're moving towards a future where nearly all the money circulating in your community is siphoned away to some corporation and there's nothing in place for the people left behind. Even if we had free college and a basic income, how many generations away from Jeff Bezos do we have to get before his descendants decide that they've had enough of floating the bill for the mooting underclass? The idea of our owners enabling a work-free utopia forever is insanity. There has to be either an end date (yeah, you can have your basic income if you agree not to reproduce so we can scale down society to just the haves) or some way for mega-corporations to monetize you (anything you produce while drawing a basic income is now the property of [whatever corporation] and they'll give you a tiny royalty if anything comes from it)
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Feb 7, 2017 03:19
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:That's easy mode, yo. You should develop skills on coping with strangers when you don't have a structured activity and someone else making the introductions for you. And PSA: If you don't teach your kids how to shop for food they'll grow up to be fat takeout addicts like you.
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Feb 7, 2017 03:20
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A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 05:26 on Feb 7, 2017 |
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Feb 7, 2017 05:03
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:That's easy mode, yo. You should develop skills on coping with strangers when you don't have a structured activity and someone else making the introductions for you. And PSA: If you don't teach your kids how to shop for food they'll grow up to be fat takeout addicts like you. I'm sure there's a youtube video teaching others how to shop, in the incredibly rare event that a child is never exposed to a supermarket. This is also assuming grocery stores will still be viable in the long-term, which they might be or they might not. Big box stores were pretty safe as a business right up until amazon changed everything.
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Feb 7, 2017 05:39
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Yes, going out in society is a social activity. Maybe you trudge and sulk and shrink away hissing anytime someone makes eye contact, but I know the cashiers who work at my store and talk to them, and frequently run into people I know or have some reason to chat with the other people there. I wonder just how much of human existence you've decided you're too good for. Hey, more power to you if shopping is something that you enjoy and find socially valuable. Grocery stores probably aren't going to go anywhere for a while, so it's not like we're stepping on each other's toes here. I still don't understand why you find it so offensive that someone might not see walking through a store as a meaningful part of their life, but whatever.
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Feb 7, 2017 05:50
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As the parent of a three and a half year old I can confirm that going through checkout is valuable socialization for teaching them how to interact with society. As the parent of a three and half year old I also occasionally thank God for Amazon Fresh. As the child of someone who worked front line retail grocery and liquor from my conception to now, i can say with certainty, god it sucks so much. The corporate absurdities, chains buying each other, and fraction of customers that are terrible, it's rough. My father is more is more stressed in his retail job than I am by my job. If I gently caress up it will kill people and make the news. I regularly make desicions that will cost a party very large amounts of money unexpectedly. Retail is much worse. There has to be a human way to deal with the growing automation of our systems, that is better than now, and not dystopic.
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Feb 7, 2017 07:25
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Yes, going out in society is a social activity. Maybe you trudge and sulk and shrink away hissing anytime someone makes eye contact, but I know the cashiers who work at my store and talk to them, and frequently run into people I know or have some reason to chat with the other people there. I wonder just how much of human existence you've decided you're too good for. This is another case of "introducing robots to this defunct system will make it worse by disabling a non-solution to it's problems". Just like the society that produces more food than ever, with more living space (and elasticity to produce more) and energy (and elasticity to increase energetic efficiency) somehow having bottom half of the society struggling to make ends meet having "we need more people doing SOMETHING so they are technically useful" focus (aka "BUT THE JERBS, THE JERBSSS"), going to grocery store somehow being some sort of crucial social glue is again a symptom of failure and degradation that shouldn't enjoy some sort of protection from the scurry robots that are about to uproot another of our historically crucial social virtues. The time spared can be used for actual real socialisation, including socialisation with strangers - you can take your kids for a walk and engage other strangers on a walk with their kids, enjoying their own Time They Don't Have To Spend Buying Groceries In. If everyone spends the extra time ignoring their kids and watching Netflix then yeah, you have a problem, but you should focus on working on that problem rather than clinging to a patchy "virtue out of lack of other options".
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Feb 7, 2017 10:52
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Call Me Charlie posted:New York Post ran an article about Amazon's physical store ambitions. The economy will collapse long before it reaches that point. If all ownership and production is controlled by a few people, then no one's going to be able to buy what they are selling. Elites cannot make an economy off of selling yachts to each other.
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Feb 7, 2017 11:12
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A solution for the "unemployable" group of people is to create something like "orphanages for adults": Buildings where these people live. Individually these people can't survive, but if they put all the money in the same pocket, they can buy food (cheap food), maybe even internet and games. They would be able to do some jobs. Government can help the group instead of helping them individually. The building can have a retrain school, so people in the building can learn new jobs / task, in the hours they are not playing videogames. These buildings can be distributed around cities, with the distance to each other limited, to avoid they creating a ghetto or becoming the seed of revolutionary movements.
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Feb 7, 2017 11:30
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Star Man posted:This is a thread full of nerdy shutins that complain about having to go to the grocery store and would rather have it delivered because going out to buy food would interfere with...something. Don't be too alarmed. It interferes with my sexhaving
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Feb 7, 2017 11:37
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I can see the social value of walking to the local grocery store, greeting your neighbour and chatting with the clerk who knows you by name. Much less so if you drive to a shopping mall where you'll pass a hundred people but none of them mean anything to you.
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Feb 7, 2017 11:39
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Tei posted:A solution for the "unemployable" group of people is to create something like "orphanages for adults": Buildings where these people live. Individually these people can't survive, but if they put all the money in the same pocket, they can buy food (cheap food), maybe even internet and games. They would be able to do some jobs. Government can help the group instead of helping them individually. The building can have a retrain school, so people in the building can learn new jobs / task, in the hours they are not playing videogames. These buildings can be distributed around cities, with the distance to each other limited, to avoid they creating a ghetto or becoming the seed of revolutionary movements. (Except for the owners of course.) I like the thing about becoming the seed of revolutionary movements, we could try that instead.
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Feb 7, 2017 11:57
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Guavanaut posted:I like the thing about becoming the seed of revolutionary movements, we could try that instead. One of the problems of future unemployement is that some of the unemployeed will be __very smart and hard working people with nothing to do__. That smell like revolution 300%. It could be a good thing or it could be a bad thing, because what exist after that? do you ban "thinking machines" and people have a medieval-lite life?
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Feb 7, 2017 13:28
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Tei posted:It could be a good thing or it could be a bad thing, because what exist after that? do you ban "thinking machines" and people have a medieval-lite life? Technology just needs to be stopped at the level it was where I was growing up when it was good and natural. Not all this future stuff that is scary and bad. -every generation literally ever.
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Feb 7, 2017 13:33
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Stopping technological progress sounds like a great way to lose the war against Eurasia.
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Feb 7, 2017 13:34
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Technology just needs to be stopped at the level it was where I was growing up when it was good and natural. Not all this future stuff that is scary and bad.
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Feb 7, 2017 13:49
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Call Me Charlie posted:New York Post ran an article about Amazon's physical store ambitions. If we can funnel the majority of the upcoming unemployed into college, basic income will be affordable for a long time. Many of today's college educated jobs will not be easily broken, probably good for another 50 years. Only then will the people of that time period need to decide how to proceed. With so many additional educated people, there's a pretty good chance the mood of the country will change, if not bring some new idea how to live with a large portion of the country unable to work. Doctor Malaver posted:I can see the social value of walking to the local grocery store, greeting your neighbour and chatting with the clerk who knows you by name. Much less so if you drive to a shopping mall where you'll pass a hundred people but none of them mean anything to you. One of the cashiers at my local grocery chain is old enough to remember a time when he worked as a cashier at some small store in a small town. He enjoyed it a lot. He got to know everyone in town and didn't have to rush anything. He tolerates his current job but any sort of happiness he had for the position left him years ago. We could conceivably have that small town vibe back, but it would require a federal mandate to override local housing authorities and implement mixed usage zones peppered across suburbia. Even then, big grocery chains will be hard to unseat just because we're used to them and they will likely still have cheaper goods than a smaller place.
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Feb 7, 2017 14:04
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I am still not seeing the inherent advantage of grocery shopping as a socially bonding, community bolstering experience. Initially it was socially relevant because the people selling you poo poo were usually the ones who grew it or built it. The social contact came with a promise of quality - if you swindle somebody, they know where you live, and they will make sure all your other customers will know it soon, too. We've got a butcher around a corner and I know I can buy raw sausage from him and count on not making GBS threads my guts out, I am glad to know him personally. I can't get mad at the grocery store clerk for quality of the bagged toast bread he sells to me when it's bread that's baked in Hungary and shipped to Czech Republic across Austria, even if I wanted, and bread is the one thing you would expect to stay mostly local (and I still buy other sorts of bread locally). Raw meat is from Poland, vegetables are from China or god knows where, fruit is from Spain. The person sells stuff they have completely no quality control over (and they can't even throw out bad shipments without oversight of chain management whom I have no chance of meeting). Social-towards-clerk shopping makes sense only if the produce is actually local. And when it's about just meeting local people in sake of meeting them, I don't see how it's better to meet them in a grocery store rather than meet them while watching a sports event or a theatre play or a concert, or just walking a dog in the park, or loving whatever. Shopping sucks and I will gladly have my homogenized Hungarian bread provided by a blissfully ignorant multicopter rather than by a wage slaving supermarket clerk who hates his job and his life.
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Feb 7, 2017 14:25
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Teal posted:And when it's about just meeting local people in sake of meeting them, I don't see how it's better to meet them in a grocery store rather than meet them while watching a sports event or a theatre play or a concert, or just walking a dog in the park, or loving whatever. Unless you go to concerts and plays in a local community center or school, it's not a community bonding experience. Walking the dog is but not everybody has a dog.
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Feb 7, 2017 14:56
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Technology just needs to be stopped at the level it was where I was growing up when it was good and natural. Not all this future stuff that is scary and bad. Half-wit posted:Stopping technological progress sounds like a great way to lose the war against Eurasia. Sure but it is possible to act between two extremes. One extreme being the strawman that you are attacking and the other "automate whatever you want, fire as many people as you want, the only thing that matters is profit".
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Feb 7, 2017 15:02
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Doctor Malaver posted:Unless you go to concerts and plays in a local community center or school, it's not a community bonding experience. Walking the dog is but not everybody has a dog.
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Feb 7, 2017 15:25
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In the future there will be literally social interaction parks where you go for the purposes of group activities. The escape room and airsoft fads are just the tip of a whole "real life simulation" industry that already exists in much of the world. Plenty of people have groups they interact with online and meet regularly to "do" things - sadly in the past they haven't been provided much that didn't involve food and/or alcohol but millennials tend to dislike traditional nightlife and people in general are pretty bored with their black mirrors. So while stupid service jobs that move box A to point B overnight at Wal-Mart or stand at the counter all day being terrible at running a cash register wasting everyone's time at CVS are vanishing, other jobs are being made. Efficiencies gained from technology lead to increased leisure spending. The burgeoning industry I am talking about is but one of many relatively new ideas that have found a foothold in the marketplace. I think in general when people talk about jobs they always buy into this patriarchal system where the royals worry about giving the peasants enough work to keep them occupied. Instead of "this person needs a job" we should be saying "this person needs to learn how to make their own money and not be so dependent on ephemeral social conditions". I'm not saying bootstraps but rather instead of worrying about how to keep all these out of work people busy and complacent we should be trying to make them productive. There's a lot of jobs in the world that just shouldn't exist.
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Feb 7, 2017 15:30
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Like the people who call up my business phone pretending to be Google. gently caress those guys. And anyone who works for Yelp. Or Groupon.
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Feb 7, 2017 15:33
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Guavanaut posted:What they need is something like a house, but open to the public. People could go there after work, have something to drink, read the news and chat to people from their local area. Members of the community could even provide entertainment. Like some kind of Public house?
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Feb 7, 2017 15:34
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Doctor Malaver posted:Sure but it is possible to act between two extremes. One extreme being the strawman that you are attacking and the other "automate whatever you want, fire as many people as you want, the only thing that matters is profit". If you are talking about laws that delay things by a few months or a year or two to make a better and more orderly transition then cool, fine. If you are talking about mandating humans do obsolete jobs that got automated years ago just as some weird patronizing make work thing then Lol, no. That is an absurd idea. Like if we are going to mandate that companies provide a bunch of fake jobs we can at least mandate they make fake jobs have some social worth like working at a soup kitchen or something. Mandating a company give some guy a lovely fake job that they don't even need him for just for that guy's benefit is an awful system. For everyone.
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Feb 7, 2017 15:53
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:If you are talking about laws that delay things by a few months or a year or two to make a better and more orderly transition then cool, fine. France has a fake jobs program https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/31/business/international/in-europe-fake-jobs-can-have-real-benefits.html
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Feb 7, 2017 16:03
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Jesus Horse posted:France has a fake jobs program This is extremely hosed up, especially given this: quote:The success rate of the training centers is high. About 60 to 70 percent of those who go through France’s practice firms find jobs, often administrative positions, Mr. Troton said. How is it that the resources exist to create these fake workplaces, but not to actually pay these people to do something productive? Creating an elaborate training system in order to move people off into temp work is absurd.
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Feb 7, 2017 16:35
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Doctor Malaver posted:Sure but it is possible to act between two extremes. One extreme being the strawman that you are attacking and the other "automate whatever you want, fire as many people as you want, the only thing that matters is profit". Owlofcreamcheese posted:If you are talking about laws that delay things by a few months or a year or two to make a better and more orderly transition then cool, fine.
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Feb 7, 2017 16:43
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Jesus Horse posted:France has a fake jobs program This gonna end in some weird not-so-horror future where nobody knows for sure if their job still has a genuine purpose or if they are one of the 95% people kept working a fake job while the robots do the real work, isn't it? Teal fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Feb 7, 2017 |
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Feb 7, 2017 16:46
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I think this has come up before but is the 2010s the ideal peak of human society or is there any automation technologies from earlier times we should have banned/restricted/made illegal? Like apparently 350,000 people were employed as AT&T telephone switchboard operators. Should they have had their job protected by law and should we mandate we return that sector to human hands? Or is it only future technology based job loss that is bad and all the ones in the past were good? Are there ones in the future that might be good and are there ones in the past that were bad? What is the metric?
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Feb 7, 2017 16:50
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:If you are talking about laws that delay things by a few months or a year or two to make a better and more orderly transition then cool, fine. There are places (New Jersey, Oregon, Brazil) where you can't pump gas on your own -- an attendant has to do it. Is it absurd? I don't know. Is it awful for everyone? Obviously it isn't awful for the attendants because they would otherwise quit. It isn't awful for drivers either because they would pressure for this to be changed. Their feelings probably vary from "don't care" to "very slightly inconvenienced". Jobs can be protected from other kinds of competition too. There are local laws and regulations about who can have a speaking role in a film or how many pharmacies can open in a town. Why wouldn't there be regulations about what proportion of employees you can automate? Note that I'm not proposing this as a great solution, I'm merely asking how that would be fundamentally different from other regulations.
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Feb 7, 2017 16:52
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I think this has come up before but is the 2010s the ideal peak of human society or is there any automation technologies from earlier times we should have banned/restricted/made illegal? All jobs should be automated so we can live in a society based on fully automated luxury gay space communism. Unfortunately capitalism still lives so all profits get sucked out of the system into the hands of the few, and thus we end up in a situation that job protection might be a good thing.
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Feb 7, 2017 16:55
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Freakazoid_ posted:If we can funnel the majority of the upcoming unemployed into college, basic income will be affordable for a long time. Many of today's college educated jobs will not be easily broken, probably good for another 50 years. Only then will the people of that time period need to decide how to proceed. With so many additional educated people, there's a pretty good chance the mood of the country will change, if not bring some new idea how to live with a large portion of the country unable to work. But what happens to those degree required 'good' jobs once there's a tidal wave of labor hitting those sectors? 3.4 million supermarket workers and 3.5 million truck drivers and 1 million other drivers (taxi/uber/bus/transit) and 3.6 million fast food workers. Let's be generous and say 15% of those jobs won't get automated after 30 years. What industries, besides government, could absorb nearly 10 million people without completely destroying everything that makes that profession a 'good' job? I know people love to default to 'basic income' but unless the government nationalizes nearly every major corporation, they won't go along with it. Especially in this new global no borders world they're trying to create. Owlofcreamcheese posted:I think this has come up before but is the 2010s the ideal peak of human society or is there any automation technologies from earlier times we should have banned/restricted/made illegal? I brought this up in the last automation talk but it's self-serve gas is illegal in two states and that's been a success story. Jobs that would have gone *poof* were able to be kept around at a minimal cost. And ironically, the small business gas stations that lobbied for it decades ago as a way to prevent them from getting snuffed out are now lobbying to repeal that law since they're having trouble finding people that want to pump gas in the dead of winter for minimum wage.
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Feb 7, 2017 16:59
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Jesus Horse posted:France has a fake jobs program What in the god drat poo poo is this 
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