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Cpt.Wacky posted:I'm pretty sure I mentioned that here as a lesson learned a while ago. It seems like some mistakes you just have to make yourself so that you learn from them. A really sharp blade, properly fettled chip breaker, setting the blade up very carefully and lubricating the sole should let you plane the reverse grain reasonably well though. I laminated my bench about 4 months ago so I might have missed it :\ Took a while for assembly. I'm lazy.
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Feb 6, 2017 22:46
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I used my (restored by tablesawtom) no. 5 plane for the first time yesterday, to clean up the edges on some 4/4 cherry boards. Even taking off thin shavings, there's a very noticeable difference between going with and against the grain. One gives a glassy-smooth finish, the other is much more rough. Is it the case that a properly-set-up plane can give you a smooth finish even when you plane in the wrong direction? I mean, I can certainly see getting a macro-scale flat surface, more than good enough for a workbench, but wouldn't the surface finish still be rough? Kind of? Tearout is usually caused by the fibers ripping apart ahead of the blade - they're being levered apart by the wedge action. This can sometimes be mitigated by setting the frog farther forward, effectively closing the mouth of the plane. I'm not sure how in-depth to go here but the reason that planes leave such a smooth finish is the toe of the plane exerts force in front of the blade, keeping the fibers from splitting apart before they can be cleanly sliced by the edge. A narrower mouth, like on a smoothing plane, gives a finer finish with less tearout because it's holding down the wood closer to the edge. That said, unless there's a really compelling reason to go against the grain (such as roughly hogging off a lot of material with a jack plane), it really gives a better finish to go with the grain.
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Feb 6, 2017 23:19
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I used my (restored by tablesawtom) no. 5 plane for the first time yesterday, to clean up the edges on some 4/4 cherry boards. Even taking off thin shavings, there's a very noticeable difference between going with and against the grain. One gives a glassy-smooth finish, the other is much more rough. Is it the case that a properly-set-up plane can give you a smooth finish even when you plane in the wrong direction? I mean, I can certainly see getting a macro-scale flat surface, more than good enough for a workbench, but wouldn't the surface finish still be rough? Only to a point, sometimes it's just going to be impossible with a plane depending on the grain. There was a video posted in the last few months? that showed extreme close ups of a plane working against the grain and different cutting depths and angles on the cap iron. But at some point you have to resort to other tools like card scrapers and cabinet scrapers. Falcon2001 posted:I laminated my bench about 4 months ago so I might have missed it :\ Took a while for assembly. I'm lazy. Don't feel too bad, start to finish my bench build was probably over 1.5 years.
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Feb 6, 2017 23:46
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Skippy Granola posted:Kind of? Tearout is usually caused by the fibers ripping apart ahead of the blade - they're being levered apart by the wedge action. This can sometimes be mitigated by setting the frog farther forward, effectively closing the mouth of the plane. In addition to this (mouth of the plane being tight to support the fibers), a very very close and well-seated chipbreaker can also fix or eliminate tearout. If you want to get into the full blown nerdgasm about it, there's this really cool video http://giantcypress.net/post/23159548132/this-is-the-full-version-of-the-video-created-by?8de140f8 Starts at about 4:00 Other reading/video http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/reconsidering-chipbreakers-as-not-totally-evil http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/cap-irons-tear-out-video/
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Feb 6, 2017 23:52
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Trabant posted:I used thread advice to look for used band saws and I think this is about the only one that fits the bill: I'd hold out for a delta/Rockwell 14" I'm sure that saw is better than nothing but IMO the 14" delta is the bottom end of the desired performance envelope if you are intending to be bandsaw centric.
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Feb 7, 2017 00:17
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Trabant posted:I used thread advice to look for used band saws and I think this is about the only one that fits the bill: Here's something that you could actually use: https://austin.craigslist.org/tls/5969383404.html There's also a 16" Inca 3 wheeler for $500... but... eh... e: found it https://dallas.craigslist.org/ndf/tls/5987346793.html Phone fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Feb 7, 2017 |
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Feb 7, 2017 01:37
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Just read a review of the Bosch vs Sawstop saws where the guy does a safety comparison by slamming his palm /jamming his finger into the blade(s) while they're running  I mean, he only had like 1mm of the blade above the table at the time, but Jesus Anyways, the Sawstop was apparently far more effective in preventing "potential" injury. As judged by "postmortem" analysis of the number and depth of cuts on said testers hand. ( )
Hubis fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Feb 7, 2017 |
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Feb 7, 2017 01:48
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Hubis posted:Just read a review of the Bosch vs Sawstop saws where the guy does a safety comparison by slamming his palm /hamming his finger into the blade(s) while they're running DIY & Hobbies > Woodworking Thread: "Not Perfect, But Significantly Better Than Amputation"
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Feb 7, 2017 01:50
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Phone posted:Here's something that you could actually use: https://austin.craigslist.org/tls/5969383404.html poo poo, guess I'm driving to Denton! Yup, that Delta was atop the list right up until I started reading the reviews (for whatever they're worth) and  I usually don't put much stock (  ) in Amazon reviews because too often they're skewed unreasonably high / bought by the manufacturer, so when I saw a distribution like that it was enough to scare me away. According to some people, the quality improved over time. It's just that there's no way of knowing what the deal is with that specific unit, so I wrote it off.
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Feb 7, 2017 02:12
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I did a safety test on my Delta saw by keeping my fingers out of the path of the blade and not cutting wet lumber so there is no kick back and it passed with flying colors. 15+ years. Turns out that table saws are safe, it's people who are unsafe.
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Feb 7, 2017 03:20
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wormil posted:I did a safety test on my Delta saw by keeping my fingers out of the path of the blade and not cutting wet lumber so there is no kick back and it passed with flying colors. 15+ years. Turns out that table saws are safe, it's people who are unsafe. I'm sure every guy captured in that study I linked thought they were a-ok #1 safety experts right up until the moment they lost a finger. I bet they were super confident about their years of experience.
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Feb 7, 2017 03:22
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wormil posted:I did a safety test on my Delta saw by keeping my fingers out of the path of the blade and not cutting wet lumber so there is no kick back and it passed with flying colors. 15+ years. Turns out that table saws are safe, it's people who are unsafe. And guns are perfectly safe as long as you don't point them at anything you don't mean to kill. Your argument is facetious; yes of course tablesaws are possible to use safely, else we wouldn't use them, but they're still substantially more dangerous than any other tool most carpenters use.
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Feb 7, 2017 03:30
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GEMorris posted:I'm sure every guy captured in that study I linked thought they were a-ok #1 safety experts right up until the moment they lost a finger. I bet they were super confident about their years of experience. Maybe, confidence born in ignorance, just like fear can be born in ignorance. One safety rule you should remember whether it's a table or band saw, don't put anything inline with the blade you want in one piece.
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Feb 7, 2017 04:10
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wormil posted:Maybe, confidence born in ignorance, just like fear can be born in ignorance. Sure, but that changes nothing about the inherent risk of the tool and the measurable results in quantity of accidents. You can aggressively ignore data if you want, but don't pretend that somehow table saws don't expose you to more risk.
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Feb 7, 2017 04:18
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:And guns are perfectly safe as long as you don't point them at anything you don't mean to kill. Your argument is facetious; yes of course tablesaws are possible to use safely, ... So I'm right, but I'm not being serious? You don't want too disagree just discredit my motives.That's very passive aggressive. Let me assure you that I am serious and mean it when I say saws can be used safely. Fear mongering is not productive, education is.
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Feb 7, 2017 04:24
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(I'm sorry guys, I just thought it was a funny anecdote  )
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Feb 7, 2017 04:26
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GEMorris posted:Sure, but that changes nothing about the inherent risk of the tool and the measurable results in quantity of accidents. And don't pretend that injury is not a result of user error or lack of education on how to use the machine.
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Feb 7, 2017 04:25
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wormil posted:So I'm right, but I'm not being serious? You don't want too disagree just discredit my motives.That's very passive aggressive. Let me assure you that I am serious and mean it when I say saws can be used safely. Fear mongering is not productive, education is. You're right, but it read, to me, as you trying to downplay the seriousness of tablesaw injuries. I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from using a tablesaw, assuming they know how to use one safely. But it's easy to get into the hobby without realizing the inherent dangers of the tools, especially the tablesaw. Much like it's depressingly easy to get a gun without undergoing gun safety training. Nobody should be doing that, but it's a fact of life and we should be doing what we can to rectify it, by encouraging people to either get the training or not get the saw.
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Feb 7, 2017 04:29
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:And guns are perfectly safe as long as you don't point them at anything you don't mean to kill. Your argument is facetious; yes of course tablesaws are possible to use safely, else we wouldn't use them, but they're still substantially more dangerous than any other tool most carpenters use. edit- aright that was harsh. Fact remains wormil knows what he's talking about. Mr. Mambold fucked around with this message at 04:51 on Feb 7, 2017 |
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Feb 7, 2017 04:47
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Mr. Mambold posted:
Yeah, I know radial arm saws are more dangerous, but most carpenters don't use 'em -- note the careful phrasing in my previous post.  As for bog-standard circular saws, now I'm curious about stats for those vs. tablesaws. I found this Popular Mechanics article that lists, in order, table saws, nailguns, chainsaws, ladders, and circular saws. It does say that circular saws have the highest rate of reported saw injuries (30% of the total) but doesn't otherwise provide stats. I find that interesting because personally I don't really like using my circular saw; it's such a bare-bones tool that you have to build and clamp in a jig to do any cut (whereas with a tablesaw you at least have the fence right there to do easy cuts to measured distances). Unless you like freehanding crosscuts I guess. Anyway, I'd expect that circular saw injury rates would be lower simply because circular saw use would be lower. So that's interesting; what am I missing? I'm having trouble finding other sites that don't look like they're shills for Sawstop. Anyone else have a source on stats for tablesaws vs. circular saws?
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Feb 7, 2017 04:59
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:You're right, but it read, to me, as you trying to downplay the seriousness of tablesaw injuries. I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from using a tablesaw, assuming they know how to use one safely. But it's easy to get into the hobby without realizing the inherent dangers of the tools, especially the tablesaw. Much like it's depressingly easy to get a gun without undergoing gun safety training. Nobody should be doing that, but it's a fact of life and we should be doing what we can to rectify it, by encouraging people to either get the training or not get the saw. I don't know how to express casual seriousness in words without sounding angry or smarmy or otherwise having the tone misinterpreted. So yes I'm serious in that I believe what I'm saying, but at the same time you can buy whatever saw you want and I don't care. I have no agenda but there are things I believe to be true and I'm going to express them even if others disagree with me. It doesn't have to be an argument though and I will try harder not write things in a provocative way. Also Hubis, I thought it was funny too. Table saws are always a polarizing subject aren't they. Whether it's safety, or brand, or cabinet vs contractor vs bench top, etc.
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Feb 7, 2017 05:02
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Saws are inherently dangerous. Its true for both table saws and band saws. Many people get injured while working with them. But more people use them every day without injury than the number who do get injured on a yearly basis. Band saws are safer than table saws, but neither is totally safe.
ilkhan fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Feb 7, 2017 |
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Feb 7, 2017 05:21
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wormil posted:I don't know how to express casual seriousness in words without sounding angry or smarmy or otherwise having the tone misinterpreted. Tone is hard to read correctly on the Internet. I apologize for misreading your statements. ilkhan posted:Saws are inherently dangerous. Its true for both table saws and band saws. Many people gets injured while working with them. More people use them every day without injury than the number who do get injured on a yearly basis. Band saws are safer than table saws, but neither is totally safe. This is a true thing.
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Feb 7, 2017 05:49
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Phone posted:There's some magic happening in this table (about saws): Just in case anyone missed the fact that the vast vast majority of people who got injured were not new to saws nor did they infrequently use them. The average age was like 56. I bet they all thought they were being safe, everyone does right up until they get bit. Sorry that saying anything bad about table saws is apparently the equivalent of attacking a way of life or making GBS threads on a bald eagle, but as someone who has seen way too many close calls (in the very shop your daughter uses now, Wormil) I can say that guiding new woodworkers towards a table saw is absolutely increasing their risk profile for having a dismembering accident. When someone asks "can I reasonably rip with a bandsaw" and you respond with the equivalent of "the cut will be no better than a handsaw, get a table saw its the best" you are disingenuously influencing people to pursue a riskier path. You yourself said your bandsaw wasn't in a great tune, so why would you chime in on what is possible for ripping with a bandsaw? I get that you think I'm a Schwarz shill and all the other things you put in your little rant, but I've never seen anyone get so protective of their "way of life" than when anyone suggests that they could do a task that you do with a table saw with some other tool. Doubly so if they suggest a table saw isn't required for woodworking. GEMorris fucked around with this message at 07:27 on Feb 7, 2017 |
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Feb 7, 2017 06:07
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Anyway, I'd expect that circular saw injury rates would be lower simply because circular saw use would be lower. So that's interesting; what am I missing?
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Feb 7, 2017 06:19
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Sawstop is good. As Nick Offerman wrote, "How much is a finger worth to you?"
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Feb 7, 2017 06:32
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Working with a sliding table saw though, much safer operation in general. My 40 year old lump is probably safer than most new saws that don't incorporate sawstop technology. As for bandsaw quality of cut, I have a blade with different TPI on the same blade, 3/4 TPI varitooth from tuffsaws, it gives shockingly good cuts, like that of a 10tpi blade. I am sold on varitooth blades from now on.
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Feb 7, 2017 07:46
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GEMorris posted:...the equivalent of attacking a way of life or making GBS threads on a bald eagle, Hey, whoa, no making GBS threads on bald eagles please. Uncouth. Then take a deep breath and imagine a world where disagreement /= persecution. Now pretend you are living in that world. What's interesting is that 85% of the saws in your graphic did not have safety labels so obviously the answer is more safety labels. Now I'm being facetious  Skippy Granola posted:Sawstop is good. Looking at the cpsc.gov data, there was a drop of about 4,000 injuries a year (I didn't look at every year) since Sawstop, from like an average of 83k to 79k (although some years are as low as 74k). Those numbers include ALL saws.  https://www.cpsc.gov/Research--Statistics/NEISS-Injury-Data Fair warning, looking at those numbers my scare you away from everything.
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Feb 7, 2017 07:55
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This chat about tablesaws v bandsaws is pretty interesting - when I took what we called woodworking in school as a young teen, I always thought the bandsaw to be a scarier tool - maybe because your whole body is a lot closer to the blade I guess. And also the thicknesser... we were never allowed to use that thing - a student from earlier years caught a board to the guts when it shot out after the blades hit a nail and ended up with a bunch of stitches.
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Feb 7, 2017 08:15
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Oh man you guys should see the combination mitre/table saw abomination my local diy store sells, you'd have a fit. http://www.diy.com/departments/evolution-diy-1200w-240v-210mm-table-mitre-saw-fury6/174003_BQ.prd
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Feb 7, 2017 08:18
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mortarr posted:This chat about tablesaws v bandsaws is pretty interesting - when I took what we called woodworking in school as a young teen, I always thought the bandsaw to be a scarier tool - maybe because your whole body is a lot closer to the blade I guess. I mean since the table is higher the bandsaw is closer to your face, but your face shouldn't be anywhere near the blade. If you have your blade guides adjusted (so that they are barely above the thickness of the workpiece) and you use a push stick, there is no way a band saw should get you, even if the blade snapped during the cut. There's just no risk of kickback. I had a pretty poor impression of bandsaws when I worked in a shared shop with poorly maintained saws. A table saw that isn't maintained well definitely degrades in quality more gracefully than a bandsaw that is neglected. Old saws with dull blades and bad tires are just a miserable experience.
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Feb 7, 2017 08:22
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GEMorris posted:If you have your blade guides adjusted... You know, thinking back, I don't believe we ever adjusted the blade guides to the size of the piece. I remember doing curved cuts with like 10-15cm of raw blade flying past, so maybe thats why I'm not a fan of them. Could be why we broke so many bandsaw blades too.
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Feb 7, 2017 08:37
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I've made a couple of benches and a table for outdoor seating (currently just stored in the shed, waiting for spring), but I wanted something more mobile and lightweight - so, chairs. I've been looking around for plans for chairs that fit my aesthetic requirements as well as my limited skillset and even more limited amount of gear. I found these: http://www.ana-white.com/2010/04/plans-simple-stackable-outdoor-chair.html I know Ana White's plans are low on durability in general, but - is it just me or does this seem exceptionally flimsy? or am I unnecessarily concerned? I'm a bit worried at the strength of the backrest as well as the seat. Screws can shear off and the angled cut worries me a bit. Any input? I like the look as well as the stackability.
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Feb 7, 2017 10:55
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Dane posted:I've made a couple of benches and a table for outdoor seating (currently just stored in the shed, waiting for spring), but I wanted something more mobile and lightweight - so, chairs. I've been looking around for plans for chairs that fit my aesthetic requirements as well as my limited skillset and even more limited amount of gear. I found these: I didn't take a detailed look, but the back and seat are both made from 1x4s and should be plenty strong enough for the amount of weight that will be put on them. If you wanted to be really paranoid, you could put another stretcher across the underside of the side and the middle of the back, so the 1.4s would be supported in the middle as well as at the ends. But I don't think that's really necessary.
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Feb 7, 2017 16:52
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I didn't take a detailed look, but the back and seat are both made from 1x4s and should be plenty strong enough for the amount of weight that will be put on them. If you wanted to be really paranoid, you could put another stretcher across the underside of the side and the middle of the back, so the 1.4s would be supported in the middle as well as at the ends. But I don't think that's really necessary. Thanks. I think it was just the way it was cut that concerned me. I'll just have to pick the most solid looking ones for the backs.
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Feb 7, 2017 17:00
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Yeah, I wouldn't feel comfortable leaning back in that chair, for what it's worth.
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Feb 7, 2017 20:31
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Slugworth posted:Circular saw use is only lower among certain groups. A rough carpenter (framer) generally uses a circular saw almost exclusively. They are also the group most likely to be using power tools in non-ideal conditions, thus, 'where'd my finger go?' No poo poo. Now imagine this non atypical scenario 40 years ago.  Circular saws were domestic, there wasn't any bosch or makita or anything non American made. Worm drive and typical lefty. Milwaukee, Skil, Rockwell (became porter-cable) Black & Decker and a few others. They had 2-3 horsepower in a small chassis, didn't have an electric brake and framers thought the blade guard was a hindrance so they'd jam a shim up between it and the housing keeping it up. The faster these guys got finished the more, quicker they got paid. Imagine seeing this now- a guy uses his skilsaw for the umpteenth time that day, but it kicks back and runs back under his arm on the ground. For a half second he's thanking his lucky stars it missed him. Then it runs along the ground and up another guy's leg and thigh 20 feet away. That guy got some stitches. Fun times.
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Feb 7, 2017 21:15
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Slugworth posted:Yeah, I wouldn't feel comfortable leaning back in that chair, for what it's worth. Wondering how I can strengthen that angled cut without making it look bulky or screwing up the stackability of it.
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Feb 7, 2017 21:58
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Dane posted:Wondering how I can strengthen that angled cut without making it look bulky or screwing up the stackability of it. Instead of using a 2x4, you could make a laminate out of 2-3 pieces of thinner material that have the same cut, but at a different angle on the grain. So wherever the grain is short on one board it's long on at least one other.
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Feb 7, 2017 22:02
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Dane posted:Wondering how I can strengthen that angled cut without making it look bulky or screwing up the stackability of it. Some sort of drawbored mortise and tenon joint that will suck them together and allow for more gluing surface.
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Feb 7, 2017 22:03
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