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Libluini posted:Owl Fancier, is your F5 key broken? My F5 works fine, it is merely often subordinate to my cynicism.
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Feb 7, 2017 17:47
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OwlFancier posted:What the gently caress did they do to make a magnetically accelerated lump of metal cost $800000 to fire? From the above posts it sounds like they're just doing that weird thing where people calculate the cost of each shot as "cost of the entire r and d behind the weapon + the actual cost per shot all divided by # of units made". So the cost would be much lower if you were amortizing the R and D costs over more bullets (or whatever one calls them), they just aren't doing that anymore.
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Feb 7, 2017 17:48
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A single soldier probably costs more than $70k to equip and operate, and will probably never be as effective as a Hellfire missile, no matter how fast he is accelerated at the target.
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Feb 7, 2017 17:49
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Guys i heard it costs 800k to refresh this page
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Feb 7, 2017 17:51
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chitoryu12 posted:$70,000 still seems like a pretty ridiculous amount of money to burn on shooting something once. ha
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Feb 7, 2017 17:51
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sullat posted:A single soldier probably costs more than $70k to equip and operate, and will probably never be as effective as a Hellfire missile, no matter how fast he is accelerated at the target. That soldier will be remembered by his family, who will think of the patriotic missile when it sacrifices itself for its country?
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Feb 7, 2017 17:55
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OK, I've a Thirty Years War question. I've gotten to the defenestration of Prague, and the first revolt of Palentine (or was it the Bavarians?) My take on this is that religious tensions, specifically, a belief that the apocalypse was nigh and that the Catholic church was evil among the protestant aristocrats ruling Palentine and made them ready for war. While the Holy Roman Empire was doing its whole "chill, dudes" via talking poo poo out and forming byzantine committee structures and such, people who thought "talk is pointless, let's get this poo poo started" threw some imperial dudes out a window. The Current emperor, Matthas, was old and useless, and his successor, Leopold may have been connected with the "FULL CATHOLICISM NOW" faction. So far war is 1) people raising troops and 2) burning a plundering poo poo for supplies. There has been a siege at (involved with beer, Pilsen?) which ended in victory for the rebels. Meanwhile, Cardinal Klesl (sp?) who up until this point has been acting as a hand of the king for Matthas, is fired for this failure of governance. (Or maybe "governance"; the political actions in the Holy Roman Empire are almost completely opaque to me.) Klsel finds out he is fired when all of his considerable, super-expensive poo poo is stolen from him by the Emperor to fund troops. [Later the Empire gives him a retirement package, which is decent of them.] Anyway, my question is: do the rebels at this point have any sort of end-goal in mind? Independence? A Kingdom of God's true religion? FULL PROTESTANTISM NOW for the empire?
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Feb 7, 2017 18:07
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chitoryu12 posted:$70,000 still seems like a pretty ridiculous amount of money to burn on shooting something once.
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Feb 7, 2017 18:11
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evil_bunnY posted:Don't look up the cost of modern munitions, you're in for s stroke. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3_EXqJ8f-0
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Feb 7, 2017 18:14
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Ask/Tell > Ask Us About Military History Mk. III: $800k per post
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Feb 7, 2017 18:19
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Nenonen posted:That soldier will be remembered by his family, who will think of the patriotic missile when it sacrifices itself for its country? Soldiers can be mass produced with unskilled labor.
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Feb 7, 2017 18:36
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Nebakenezzer posted:OK, I've a Thirty Years War question. Mostly being angry and having their concerns heard. Wars, esp. in the HRE before (and after) this are as much about acquiring a negotiating position as enforcing your will. Raising your armies and kicking up a fuss was abit like serving legal papers. It'd be wrong to call the Holy Roman Empire a constitutional monarchy but there was a (ever shifting) code of w/r/t rights and duties of the princes and the emperor and who got to say what about who where etc. etc.
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Feb 7, 2017 19:09
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P-Mack posted:Don't compare costs of military equipment to civilian products that are mass produced in the millions of units, compare it to specialized industrial equipment. When you spend $10,000 on a stupid replacement valve that does nothing but open and close, $70,000 for something that goes Mach 4 , has a computer in it, and explodes seems reasonable. Also your Civilian products rely upon common infrastructure costing billions, none of which is utilisable in a military environment.
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Feb 7, 2017 19:20
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A certain expensive Railgun.
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Feb 7, 2017 19:39
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INTJ Mastermind posted:Soldiers can be mass produced with unskilled labor. But they're really long lead time items.
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Feb 7, 2017 19:40
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the JJ posted:Mostly being angry and having their concerns heard. Wars, esp. in the HRE before (and after) this are as much about acquiring a negotiating position as enforcing your will. Raising your armies and kicking up a fuss was abit like serving legal papers. It'd be wrong to call the Holy Roman Empire a constitutional monarchy but there was a (ever shifting) code of w/r/t rights and duties of the princes and the emperor and who got to say what about who where etc. etc. So a war to enter into negotiations so that Palentine can kick out all Catholics?
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Feb 7, 2017 19:54
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Nebakenezzer posted:OK, I've a Thirty Years War question. Minor nitpick, it's 'the Palatinate'  . It's not a placename as such, it's a description of a type of sovereignty; 'palatine' means 'palace-ish' and the Palatinate is 'that place governed by the palace-ish bloke', basically. The same way you wouldn't say 'Congress meets at Capitol', sort of.
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Feb 7, 2017 20:10
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Thanks for the recommendation to read Ivan's War, whoever it was that recommended it. It is fantastic and a weird mix of sad and fiercely proud.
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Feb 7, 2017 20:34
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feedmegin posted:Minor nitpick, it's 'the Palatinate' Of course, not to be be confused with pfalzgraf or count palatine, which is a title unrelated to the Palatinate.
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Feb 7, 2017 21:18
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Nebakenezzer posted:So a war to enter into negotiations so that Palentine can kick out all Catholics? A lot of it had to do with representation because the official religious designation for many places had been decided back in 1555 and hadn't been updated since then. So you have areas that are officially Catholic despite an overwhelming Protestant majority.
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Feb 7, 2017 21:26
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Nebakenezzer posted:So a war to enter into negotiations so that Palentine can kick out all Catholics? What the Bohemian nobility (the rebellion begins in Prague, in Bohemia) wanted was a guarantee of their religious rights, previously granted to them by Emperor Rudolf II in the Letter of Majesty; in addition to being Emperor, Rudolf was King of Bohemia (and the King of Hungary, and Archduke of Austria) at the time. The more radical members of the Protestant nobility feared that Ferdinand would seek to impose Catholicism as an official religion in Bohemia; in addition to the obvious religious concerns, this has profound political implications. After the beginning of the Bohemian Revolt, the majority Protestant Hapsburg possessions of Upper and Lower Austria rose in revolt as well. Frederick V (his title is most commonly given as Elector Palatine, he was the Count Palatine of the Rhine, and by the Golden Bull of 1356, an Elector when it comes time to choose an Emperor), seriously enters the picture a year later, when an assembly of Bohemian Protestant nobles elected him as King of Bohemia (Bohemia was an elective monarchy, a different election than that for the Imperial title). By electing Frederick, they were seeking overt support from the Protestant Union, a loose alliance formed by German Protestant princes to oppose re-Catholicization of Imperial territory by the Emperor. Incidentally, they would have preferred to elect Johann George, Prince-Elector of Saxony, but Johann George was pretty firmly in the Catholic political camp, despite being a committed Lutheran himself; he refused the throne and would later aid Imperial forces in subduing the insurrection in Bohemia. PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Feb 7, 2017 |
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Feb 7, 2017 21:35
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Ithle01 posted:A lot of it had to do with representation because the official religious designation for many places had been decided back in 1555 and hadn't been updated since then. So you have areas that are officially Catholic despite an overwhelming Protestant majority. In another context it would sound downright unreasonable that something that sounds actually p easy to fix hadn't been for a century, but this is the HRE, a government that seems to be some sort of experiment in baroque complication feedmegin posted:Minor nitpick, it's 'the Palatinate' So wait, is the Palatinate the place that rules over the Palentine, or is this some sort of mysterious -government level- that just German provinces have, or what? See, when I was reading "Shattered Sword" there was confusion over who was running the IJN, not who or what the IJN was e: thanks for the reply Mr. Elder. I understand now, but the King of Bohemia being an elected position that both the HR emperor held at one time *and* the guy who ferments civil war is incredibly confusing. Not to mention: the King of Bohemia is an elector for the emperor, so a would-be Emperor could vote for himself? Nebakenezzer fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Feb 7, 2017 |
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Feb 7, 2017 21:36
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Nebakenezzer posted:In another context it would sound downright unreasonable that something that sounds actually p easy to fix hadn't been for a century, but this is the HRE, a government that seems to be some sort of experiment in baroque complication It happened in Lebanon for a while, once they portioned out government offices to different religions as a means of political power sharing they didn't take another census for decades. It's a pretty sane idea when you have religious power blocs that are roughly balanced.
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Feb 7, 2017 21:45
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Nebakenezzer posted:So wait, is the Palatinate the place that rules over the Palentine, or is this some sort of mysterious -government level- that just German provinces have, or what? Things don't have official names really, and the names tend to differ from German to English from what I can tell. The Electoral Palatinate is probably the clearest name for the polity ruled by Frederick V. In the case of the Electoral Palatinate, the title is hereditary, and the ruler is general styled Elector Palatine. There were a lot of other unrelated titles of Count Palatine through the years, though by 1600 most of them were extinct. When you read Count Palatine, Palatinate, or Electoral Palatine in works involving the 30YW, you can be pretty confident they're all referring to the same thing, and that's the lands ruled by Frederick V. Then to add more fun, by the end of the war, the Palatine electoral title has been transferred to the ruler of Bavaria, who is now official the Elector Palatine, but is never called that, with everyone going for the much more helpful Bavarian Elector. Then in 1648 a new, different title of Elector Palatine is created and given to Frederick V's son Charles Louis, bringing the total of Electors to eight. The Holy Roman Empire was complicated. Nebakenezzer posted:e: thanks for the reply Mr. Elder. I understand now, but the King of Bohemia being an elected position that both the HR emperor held at one time *and* the guy who ferments civil war is incredibly confusing. Not to mention: the King of Bohemia is an elector for the emperor, so a would-be Emperor could vote for himself? Exactly. The Bohemian kingship had been held by Habsburgs for almost a century prior to the beginning of the 30YW, and that Habsburg was also the Emperor for almost as long. And yes, the King of Bohemia gets to vote for himself (or for his son/heir more likely, since they tended to pre-arrange these things to ensure stability) in the Imperial election. The people really fomenting the Bohemian revolt are the Bohemian nobility though. Frederick comes a little later, though it is his election to the Bohemian crown that really sets poo poo off, there's no way the Hapsburgs can ignore that. feedmegin posted:Elector Palatine, who rules the Electoral Palatinate. In theory you could have any number of electors palatine and any number of palatinates ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Palatine_of_Durham - even with a semi-sovereign bishop for HRE flair!) - but in this time and place it does mean this specific dude/state. Corrected, thanks. And yeah, while we're talking about it, Count Palatine is a super old latin title, essentially meaning prince of the palace. It pops up all over the place. PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Feb 7, 2017 |
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Feb 7, 2017 21:47
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PittTheElder posted:The Electoral Palatinate is probably the clearest name for the polity ruled by Frederick V. In the case of the Electoral Palatinate, the title is hereditary, and the ruler is general styled Electoral Palatine. Elector Palatine, who rules the Electoral Palatinate. In theory you could have any number of electors palatine and any number of palatinates ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Palatine_of_Durham - even with a semi-sovereign bishop for HRE flair!) - but in this time and place it does mean this specific dude/state.
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Feb 7, 2017 21:51
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Do consider that the effect of precision guidance has changed warfare from sorties per aimpoint to aimpoints per sortie. During the Vietnam War it might take an entire flight of attack aircraft loaded with a dozen iron bombs each to knock out a single target. Nowadays a single fighter with a half-dozen SDBs aboard can reasonably be expected to successfully attack 3 or 4 targets per sortie. The same applies to artillery projectiles. Army testing of Copperhead found that 1-2 guided projectiles could achieve mission results that would require 50+ conventional shells to accomplish. Obviously for wide-area destruction or suppression missions unguided dumb munitions are still king.
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Feb 7, 2017 22:19
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PittTheElder posted:When you read Count Palatine, Palatinate, or Electoral Palatine in works involving the 30YW, you can be pretty confident they're all referring to the same thing, and that's the lands ruled by Frederick V. edit: Also kings Charles X, XI, XII and queen Ulrika Eleonora are called the "Palatine dynasty". This has been the milhist thread's mandated Swedish history quota for this page. Morholt fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Feb 7, 2017 |
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Feb 7, 2017 22:49
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Nebakenezzer posted:In another context it would sound downright unreasonable that something that sounds actually p easy to fix hadn't been for a century, but this is the HRE, a government that seems to be some sort of experiment in baroque complication I don't think there's any context where this is an easy fix because as it turns out the Catholics, a shrinking minority, enjoyed being over-represented. Just like every over time in history this has played out. It's a bit like the 1600's version of gerrymandering Congressional districts that have experienced, shall we say, demographic change since the 1950's.
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Feb 7, 2017 22:59
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Morholt posted:Exception: Charles Gustav, King of Sweden and Count Palatine of Zweibrücken-Kleeburg, who is sometimes referred to in Sweden as simply "the Count Palatine" when discussing him before he became King. I was confused by this for the longest time. Clearly this creates a justification for Pfalz to invade and conquer your asses for trademark infringement.
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Feb 7, 2017 23:02
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xthetenth posted:But they're really long lead time items. Compared to the timescale of other modern military acquisition programs? Nah.
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Feb 8, 2017 00:01
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poo poo I'm sorry about that last page, I'm a bad-reading dum dum.
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Feb 8, 2017 00:04
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xthetenth posted:But they're really long lead time items. But you can make a killing with the substandard stock on the secondary market.
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Feb 8, 2017 00:16
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bewbies posted:The other thing is that chemical propellants are moving forward pretty quickly right now for...whatever reason things do this, so some of the advantages that EM drive offers is being offset a bit by more traditional means. I've got no contact with propellant development or anything of the sort. But from what I learned in my nanotechnology studies, there's probably all kinds of new and exciting propellant performance that could be produced via nano-powders of suitable materials instead of using bulk materials. 
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Feb 8, 2017 00:38
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Did Poland have a chance of surviving WW2? I know just asking that is delving really hard into alt-history but let's say that the military didn't do a coup that squandered lives nor installed an incompetent military dictatorship, did Poland have the manpower and resources to field a military that could've either changed the possibility of Molotov-Ribbentrop happening or duking it out until England arrived (lol)? e: Asking mostly cause I just read Ensign's article on the 7TP and the line about the USSR being concerned about Poland taking the lead in tank count made me go "wat" Eej fucked around with this message at 04:13 on Feb 8, 2017 |
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Feb 8, 2017 04:09
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Eej posted:Did Poland have a chance of surviving WW2? I know just asking that is delving really hard into alt-history but let's say that the military didn't do a coup that squandered lives nor installed an incompetent military dictatorship, did Poland have the manpower and resources to field a military that could've either changed the possibility of Molotov-Ribbentrop happening or duking it out until England arrived (lol)? No.
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Feb 8, 2017 04:12
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There's no way for Poland to survive unless you specifically use Hearts of Iron as your wargaming simulation and base all your results on that.
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Feb 8, 2017 04:40
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Eej posted:Did Poland have a chance of surviving WW2? I know just asking that is delving really hard into alt-history but let's say that the military didn't do a coup that squandered lives nor installed an incompetent military dictatorship, did Poland have the manpower and resources to field a military that could've either changed the possibility of Molotov-Ribbentrop happening or duking it out until England arrived (lol)? You really have to go down the rabbit hole. Molotov-Ribbentrop can't happen, and you need the WAllies to grow a spine. You also probably need the war to start at Munich rather than 11 months later, along with France attacking in force at least across the border, if not through Belgium as well.
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Feb 8, 2017 04:54
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MANime in the sheets posted:You really have to go down the rabbit hole. Molotov-Ribbentrop can't happen, and you need the WAllies to grow a spine. You also probably need the war to start at Munich rather than 11 months later, along with France attacking at least across the border, if not through Belgium as well. You need to increase their war production, probably increase their army training to bring it up to par, completely revamp their airforce to include modern fighters...
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Feb 8, 2017 04:56
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Jobbo_Fett posted:You need to increase their war production, probably increase their army training to bring it up to par, completely revamp their airforce to include modern fighters... My argument assumes that Germany collapses pretty drat fast.
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Feb 8, 2017 04:58
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Eej posted:Did Poland have a chance of surviving WW2? I know just asking that is delving really hard into alt-history but let's say that the military didn't do a coup that squandered lives nor installed an incompetent military dictatorship, did Poland have the manpower and resources to field a military that could've either changed the possibility of Molotov-Ribbentrop happening or duking it out until England arrived (lol)? Lol no unless you think Belgium made out well in WWI.
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Feb 8, 2017 05:11
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