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IronicDongz posted:But most games(especially games that end early) you wouldn't find HW/tele wands, while potions are common enough that an increase in them is felt every game, front to back. It may reduce the amount of times you get a big boost but overall, in most games, you're given more of those resources. Wand of Teleportation is common as hell. I am throwing extras away most games. I have 4 in my current 1 rune game. And like many players, if I have any heal issues or want more than 3 runes I use acquirement on wands until I get Heal Wounds. Immolation plus Ignition seems a pretty good way to handle certain ambushes and bosses without having an L9 spell....
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Feb 8, 2017 05:06
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I just saw this on CBRO trunk in a game I started a few hours ago. What happens to removed spells/items in existing games when they're updated to a new version?
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Feb 8, 2017 05:08
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New zig spellset - all elements, no conj. (Ignition, Refrigeration, Shatter, Tornado).Microcline posted:
Generally the spells don't do anything but still take up spell slots and the items become useless or get replaced (if there was a clear replacement).
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Feb 8, 2017 05:08
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IronicDongz posted:I don't agree with that at all, you didn't usually find HW wands in 3 rune games. By the time you survive long enough to find multiple HW potions you would rarely find a HW wand. Lies. Pure lies. And lovely lies, at that. Araganzar posted:Wand of Teleportation is common as hell. I am throwing extras away most games. I have 4 in my current 1 rune game. And like many players, if I have any heal issues or want more than 3 runes I use acquirement on wands until I get Heal Wounds. Truth. The Big 3 Wands are necessary. Going into Zot:5 without at least one of them is suicide Only play .19 or earlier if you want to win
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Feb 8, 2017 05:27
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Stop making the game harder.
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Feb 8, 2017 05:29
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Acquirement was weighted towards giving you one of the yellow wands. Given the fickle nature of acquirement, I pretty much always used them on wands since it felt like I was more likely to get something I'd actually want from it. So acting like those wands were so rare a player never got them in a 3 rune game is silly. Even without acquirement you could usually find a wand of teleportation just lying around across the course of the game. I've 15 runed without heal wounds and hasting wands but I'm pretty sure I've never not found a teleportation wand.
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Feb 8, 2017 05:36
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I've had 3 rune games where two heal wounds wands just showed up on the dungeon floor, and plenty of other 3 rune games where Haste or HW were available in shops or end vaults.
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Feb 8, 2017 05:38
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rchandra posted:New zig spellset - all elements, no conj. (Ignition, Refrigeration, Shatter, Tornado).
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Feb 8, 2017 05:38
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Speleothing posted:Truth. The Big 3 Wands are necessary. Going into Zot:5 without at least one of them is suicide Only play .19 or earlier if you want to win
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Feb 8, 2017 05:39
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Removing HW wands and upping HW potion spawns might keep the average # of heals per game the same (I doubt that thanks to recharge scrolls but let's pretend it did) but it cuts back on the high end, and the upper tail of the RNG is where most people win games. For people at the upper limits of skill that can get streaks a stronger bias towards the average is more important because they can more easily succeed and win with just average luck. For lower skilled players though the games where they do roll well are the games where they get further than ever before and get their wins. I'm not going make a value judgement over what is better but you can't really argue that cutting HW wands has no effect on game balance just because the average number of HWs per game is still the same.
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Feb 8, 2017 05:51
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The average number of heal wounds definitely is not the same with the wand gone. Heal wounds potions are already rare to the point where you probably won't even find 20 of them over the course of a 3 rune game. So a 10% increase in their spawn rate means you'll, on average, probably only get one more than usual. By comparison finding a wand of heal wounds drastically increases your healing supply since you can fuel it with recharging scrolls. Ignoring the extreme case where you luck into a heal wounds wand on D:2, I found heal wounds wands mostly to be a safety buffer. If a late game fight wasn't going so well, I could pad out my HP with heal wounds. The monsters might roll high enough to negate the healing, but in most cases spamming heal wounds will be a nice net gain. Now that wands are gone I have to use potions for that, and potions don't spawn in large enough quantities for you to perform that tactic. So the removal of the wand has effectively eliminated one safety tactic from most games. It also means mummies and lich form players have lost their only source of item healing, which is definitely not a nerf they needed.
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Feb 8, 2017 06:06
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I have a great Ds going but I got abyssed and I have been on goddamn abyss 2 for TWO THOUSAND GODDAMN TURNS. This is in 0.15 before you got a portal out by killing a bunch of guys. That's one addition that was sorely needed. I have used 8 of my 9 teleport scrolls and 2 of my 3 heal wounds pots. This is really stupid, it's like "roll a D20, did you roll 1, okay you'll be in the abyss for 3,000 turns instead of 30".
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Feb 8, 2017 07:02
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IronicDongz posted:I guess I forgot how when you enter zot 5 all heal wounds potions, haste potions, and teleport scrolls are eradicated from your inventory, and also how heal wounds is totally relevant and important at that stage of the game because it definitely still heals you a lot more than enemies damage you for per turn in combat Come on man, you're wrong. HW wands show up 3 rune games relatively frequently even when the player isn't using acquirement to get them and tele wands are pretty common. And you know that heal wands in the lategame are used differently from heal potions early on, you're just being willfully difficult here. Except under the most extreme circumstances nobody tries to heal with wands while something is hitting them, they use it when they've just finished a hard fight and something else dangerous pops up at the edge of LoS and spots them, so they duck behind a wall and use the couple of turns they have to recover some missing HP so the Orb of Fire or Ancient Lich doesn't murder them in a single turn.
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Feb 8, 2017 07:08
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Araganzar posted:Yes, that's obfuscation. There's not a value judgement to the term. Clearly some things SHOULD always be obfuscated so there remain opportunities for surprise and novelty. I don't think that's a useful definition of 'obfuscation'. There's a real and meaningful difference between things that the player can know if they read the source but that the game won't tell them - e.g. monster average hp - and things that they absolutely cannot know without entering wizmode or using a memory editor - e.g. monster max/current hp. For the purpose of this discussion, I don't think it makes sense to file those in the same category!
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Feb 8, 2017 07:50
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In the discussion of whether the game is getting harder or not, it's perhaps worth noting that winrates don't seem to be dropping over the last few version. Of course, that could be a result of the game getting harder at the same rate that the average player is getting better, but that's a more complex hypothesis and one that requires more evidence... something to think about, anyway.
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Feb 8, 2017 07:54
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It could also be that players are trending towards more 'mainstream' combos like GrFi or DE*E or what have you as opposed to wacky builds like OpTm or FeAnything.
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Feb 8, 2017 07:56
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vOv posted:It could also be that players are trending towards more 'mainstream' combos like GrFi or DE*E or what have you as opposed to wacky builds like OpTm or FeAnything. Without checking the statistics on this I doubt this is specifically the case given the age of the playerbase (both old and new) and given how popular species like Octopode and Demonspawn are.
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Feb 8, 2017 08:09
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I'm not sure winrates tell a full story here either. I know I've never played online because I really hate the lack of a mouse interface (I play on a laptop without a numpad so the default controls are ugh) and lag. But I do get people can't make decisions on data they don't have so. . I dunno.
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Feb 8, 2017 08:13
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SKULL.GIF posted:Without checking the statistics on this I doubt this is specifically the case given the age of the playerbase (both old and new) and given how popular species like Octopode and Demonspawn are. Yeah, I'm not saying this is definitely the case (or even probably the case) I'm just pointing it out as a possibility.
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Feb 8, 2017 08:23
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PleasingFungus posted:I don't think that's a useful definition of 'obfuscation'. There's a real and meaningful difference between things that the player can know if they read the source but that the game won't tell them - e.g. monster average hp - and things that they absolutely cannot know without entering wizmode or using a memory editor - e.g. monster max/current hp. For the purpose of this discussion, I don't think it makes sense to file those in the same category! What you are talking about is whether the game mechanics are hidden as opposed to the particulars of a given game. I agree that is a real and meaningful distinction, but it's not one that "obfuscate" covers semantically. It's a word of smoke and shadow. It literally means "to cover over with dusk" (as opposed to darkness) or "to cover in dark brown" (as opposed to black). If you want to split hairs, that means hiding something in a way that obscures or enshrouds it rather than rendering it invisible, unfindable, or unfathomable. Besides, why can the player ABSOLUTELY NOT KNOW the SACRED TOTAL HP of a monster? Like 500 million games already do it. A lot of them pride themselves on displaying it in big bold numbers. And in many others it can be derived from the first blow in battle. In Crawl the choice was made to not do so, and I as I've said before I think it's a good one.
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Feb 8, 2017 08:29
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PleasingFungus posted:I don't think that's a useful definition of 'obfuscation'. There's a real and meaningful difference between things that the player can know if they read the source but that the game won't tell them - e.g. monster average hp - and things that they absolutely cannot know without entering wizmode or using a memory editor - e.g. monster max/current hp. For the purpose of this discussion, I don't think it makes sense to file those in the same category! Two numbers that wizmode will tell you and the player can work out if they know the formulas are spellpower and stealth, and the game really should just give you those numbers instead of using the pips. Comparing armour types, stat bonuses and enhancer/stealth bonuses is needlessly difficult to intuit with just the pips. Knowing exact piety would also be nice but divisions smaller than a star usually don't matter so that one's not really a big deal.
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Feb 8, 2017 08:43
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I still don't have a good sense for how to compare weapons/armor. 
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Feb 8, 2017 08:52
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What the gently caress why does conjurer not start with battlesphere anymore, is battlesphere gone That might actually be the thing that makes me stop playing. :/
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Feb 8, 2017 09:05
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LogicNinja posted:What the gently caress why does conjurer not start with battlesphere anymore, is battlesphere gone Battlesphere and lightning spire replaced with force lance and airstrike in Cj and AE starts Airstrike is fine (the fear about spire seems like a total overreaction but airstrike is also good) but no battlesphere start is dumb.
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Feb 8, 2017 09:11
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Well now I'm not playing conjurer ever again
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Feb 8, 2017 09:13
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fulminant prism is actually pretty good, at least
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Feb 8, 2017 09:17
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They're definitely right in that the Cj start book might as well just contain Magic Dart and Battlesphere, but I have no clue if Force Lance is good enough to make up for it considering how mana-light Battlesphere is. e: You could also use it to block corridors in an emergency. vOv fucked around with this message at 09:49 on Feb 8, 2017 |
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Feb 8, 2017 09:44
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It's not, the new conjurer just runs out of mana asap.
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Feb 8, 2017 09:45
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Darox posted:Battlesphere and lightning spire replaced with force lance and airstrike in Cj and AE starts
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Feb 8, 2017 09:45
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Force lance is pretty underwhelming for damage and pushback, the only time I've found it really useful is with a nightstalker demonspawn. Also it's conj/translocations which is pretty lousy.
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Feb 8, 2017 09:52
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Is there any reason to play Cj anymore? Lair is going to absolutely suck without a reliable way to damage yaks/hydras/death yaks.
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Feb 8, 2017 11:44
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Fulminant prism is a reliable way to deal with yaks and death yaks. It's actually quite a solid spell and I understand wanting to push players more to use it. Force lance in a starting book is also cool. Try a DE conjuror of Ash with a bow. You'll have just the same mana efficiency as before and some powerful new synergies. I do think force lance could stand for a buff, though. Perhaps make it work in a very short cone (e.g. affecting only three squares total) in front of the player, keep the damage the same, but give it vastly more knockback? Now it deals solid AoE damage, but can't be used repeatedly unless you're smashing enemies into a wall or pinballing them and provides a good "get the gently caress away from me" option. Heithinn Grasida fucked around with this message at 11:51 on Feb 8, 2017 |
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Feb 8, 2017 11:48
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On the game getting harder or not, winrates don't tell the story because you're not seeing offline. New players play offline more than older players so if their winrate is dropping, your not seeing it. I play offline for the most part because CPO is laggy as gently caress so you're not seeing my lovely winrate. On Battlespehere being removed, once again, this is making the game harder in the name of an "interesting choice". Can't wait to hear how I'm wrong and this isn't making it harder and is actually a good change. If all the obvious choices get removed, new and bad players will be even more lost than they are already. gently caress this poo poo.
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Feb 8, 2017 11:55
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Unimpressed posted:On the game getting harder or not, winrates don't tell the story because you're not seeing offline. New players play offline more than older players so if their winrate is dropping, your not seeing it. I play offline for the most part because CPO is laggy as gently caress so you're not seeing my lovely winrate. I agree that this change is a significant nerf to Cj. Since most people find casters much weaker than heavy armor melee in the first place, I hope that, first of all, the devs buff some under-performing spells and that second they add some new spells. Force lance could use a buff, Leda's liquefaction is in dire need of a buff, necromutation is a trap, hexes are looking paltry at high levels, poison remains extremely boring past the early game for most characters, more so now that your only serious mid-late game spell is the rare Parrow, and the charms school really needs an injection of new blood.
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Feb 8, 2017 12:06
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Unimpressed posted:If all the obvious choices get removed, new and bad players will be even more lost than they are already. gently caress this poo poo.
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Feb 8, 2017 12:07
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Uh, harming players who have basic knowledge of the game is not the same as helping completely new players. I'm pretty sure removing minotaurs because they are the strong and easy melee race would not make the game easier for new players. Also I don't think 'the end cap spell from your starting book is good' is a super difficult puzzle that was holding new players back from playing conjurer well.
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Feb 8, 2017 12:23
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Panic! at Nabisco posted:I mostly agree with you re: Crawl's general difficulty going up, but removing no-brainers is strictly a change that benefits new players, because they're only no-brainers to people who know what they're doing. I disagree. Case in point, this change. Until now, you ask for advice here on a good caster combo to get started, hell, it was just a few pages ago. People answer, take a DeCj, bring up conj and charms until you get BS going. Now that's a good basis to learn about how to be a caster. Now, there is no basis so not only has it gotten objectively harder, it's gotten even worse for new players. As good as force lance may be, it's harder to use properly for unskilled players, so basically Cj starts are non viable for newbs or bads. But hey, they added choice, amirite? I think it's time I dropped this point and switched to 0.19 instead of building trunk on my laptop.
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Feb 8, 2017 12:27
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Oh my god WHY would you kill Cj like this. Force Lance is okay and not really reliable for how much you have to put in it. Battlesphere was the only reason to take that start. Now it's pretty much just pick FE if you want to go caster. EDIT: Let me clarify. The reason Battlesphere overshadows the rest of the starting Cj book is that most of those options SUCK. Searing Ray is good but a drain on your MP, Prism is loud enough to bring half a level down on you, IMB is way too unreliable and Dazzling Spray requires investment in HEXES, which you never want to touch as a blaster except to get Invisibility online. PlasticAutomaton fucked around with this message at 13:48 on Feb 8, 2017 |
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Feb 8, 2017 13:44
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Clearly I need to stupidly splat more garbage for the winrate to take notice 
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Feb 8, 2017 13:49
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Here's the Tavern thread that prompted the change. I like the AE change, as I feel Airstrike makes up for losing Repel Missiles while giving them an actually useful spell over Lightning Bolt (while Summon Lightning Spire just overlaps with Summoners). However, the Conjurer change is dumb. Sure, it revolved around Battlesphere, but maybe that's because Fulminant Prism is really fiddly and annoying in comparison. I'd prefer Fulminant Prism get moved out and reworked/buffed to be a higher level spell, while returning Battlesphere. You could even keep Force Lance, which is way more interesting to combine with Battlesphere than Fulminant Prism. Also, I feel the winrate stays the same overall because the game gets easier to play from quality of life improvements, while actually becoming more difficult from gameplay additions/removals. Newer players aren't dying to making terrible decisions now, they are dying to a difficult situation. Anyone who knew those correct choices, however, will notice the power drop while seeing the difficulty increase. I don't think the game is nearly as unplayable as some of the doomsaying going on, but you have to admit that it is becoming a harder game.
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Feb 8, 2017 14:12
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