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Droyer posted:He said that what he wanted from her wasn't strength though, several episodes ago. No, he said he knows she's strong (and, implicitly, he's proud of her for it), but there are other parts of soldiering she needs to learn. Like taking a goddamned break and chilling out every so often. Rustal's basic problem is that since he's one of the few guys in Gjallarhorn who rewards talent over station, and since he's such a general exemplar himself, his followers keep running themselves into the ground trying to be deserving of him when he'd really rather that they took care of themselves a little more.
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Feb 6, 2017 02:09
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Rustal's whole gig is to show the type of leaders who have been able to keep Gjallahorn going for three centuries, and honestly if the leadership was just people like him then it would actually have some merit in continuing to exist in its current format.
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Feb 6, 2017 02:16
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Darth Walrus posted:It's worth noting that the Lupus Rex is basically the Gundam version of the Graze Ein. It's a monstrous, distorted version of the standard model with grotesquely oversized limbs and an extra-large version of its standard melee weapon that's loaded down with hidden wargear, including machine-guns, piledrivers, and folding sub-arms, and serves as a surrogate body for its crippled pilot. The thing about Julietta is that she's currently on the threshold - she could follow Mikazuki and Ein and become a monster, or she could pull back and live as something more than a killing machine. It's reflected with her Julia, which seems just as warped as the Rex and Ein, but is actually a standard, stripped-down Reginlaze wearing its non-standard parts. She's costumed as a monster, but she isn't one yet. Darth Walrus posted:No, he said he knows she's strong (and, implicitly, he's proud of her for it), but there are other parts of soldiering she needs to learn. Like taking a goddamned break and chilling out every so often. Rustal's basic problem is that since he's one of the few guys in Gjallarhorn who rewards talent over station, and since he's such a general exemplar himself, his followers keep running themselves into the ground trying to be deserving of him when he'd really rather that they took care of themselves a little more. Vidar's going to be a big part of this. Being (presumably) Gaelio and Kimaris with the latest and greatest Gjallahorn technology, he's another monster at the level Julietta aspires to reach. They are also (presumably) a being that is only truly whole when the pilot is in the cockpit. But instead of becoming a monstrous distortion, everything is refined, and the form is still human/Gundam. He's a monster that dresses like a human, and hopefully there will be a moment between Julietta and Vidar that brings up everything that had to be given up to reach that level, and if it is truly worth it.
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Feb 6, 2017 03:08
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Hunt11 posted:Rustal's whole gig is to show the type of leaders who have been able to keep Gjallahorn going for three centuries, and honestly if the leadership was just people like him then it would actually have some merit in continuing to exist in its current format. It was neat seeing him willing to even break bread with Teiwaz to drop the whole Dainsleif issue AND ensure Iok stayed home instead of helping Jasley as-promised. Watching Jasley's entire house of cards collapse because of his own ego in a single phone call was a wonderful thing  .
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Feb 6, 2017 07:45
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Seconding that McMurdo's "did you really think I didn't know what you were doing, you loving worm?" moment with Jasley was wonderful after all his crowing about how McMurdo was old, weak, and spineless and he'd easily be able to replace him. That on top of him cleanly severing Tekkadan to do their own thing while not being part of Teiwaz, but it clearly wasn't a bad break. If anything even in their parting Tekkadan is doing him a favor, and him them. Tekkadan got revenge, McMurdo got rid of a backstabbing little poo poo. Win win.
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Feb 6, 2017 09:49
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Neddy Seagoon posted:It was neat seeing him willing to even break bread with Teiwaz to drop the whole Dainsleif issue AND ensure Iok stayed home instead of helping Jasley as-promised. I have to wonder if this was a tactical mistake. Tekkadan is going to be instrumental to McGillis' plans, so letting his troops go and shut them down for good might have actually been the better play, assuming it didn't make him more vulnerable to the coup. Then again, it is entirely possible, even likely, that the Iok would have just been more grist for the mill if he'd shown up. It isn't like they were having trouble dismantling Jasley.
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Feb 6, 2017 19:17
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Caros posted:I have to wonder if this was a tactical mistake. Tekkadan is going to be instrumental to McGillis' plans, so letting his troops go and shut them down for good might have actually been the better play, assuming it didn't make him more vulnerable to the coup. No Iok's forces likely would have ripped Tekkaden apart. His group is well trained and greatly outnumber Tekkaden. According to McMurdo Iok's forces could wipe out the entirety of Teiwaz. It can be hard to remember but Iok is a commander in Gjallerhorn's strongest fleet.
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Feb 6, 2017 20:43
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MonsterEnvy posted:No Iok's forces likely would have ripped Tekkaden apart. His group is well trained and greatly outnumber Tekkaden. According to McMurdo Iok's forces could wipe out the entirety of Teiwaz. Well then it does kind of seem to be a bad move on Rustal's part, no? The only reason I'm hesitant to agree is we just saw Iok's fleet get absolutely poo poo on by the turbines despite Iok having every possible advantage including the turbines repeatedly trying to surrender. If Julia is still out of the fight with damage there isn't a single pilot on their side of the field who could remotely compete with Mika, Shino or Akihiro.
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Feb 6, 2017 21:27
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Caros posted:Well then it does kind of seem to be a bad move on Rustal's part, no? Not really. The only damage the Turbines did was the suicidal charge with the ship at the end. Also the Julia is more or less undamaged.
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Feb 6, 2017 21:32
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If Iok used deinsleifs on the Isabiri and destroyed/incapacitated it then the suit pilots would have been taken out by attrition. Without booster fuel they would be sitting ducks. Hell you can probably just leave them there and they'd die of starvation at that point. Rustal probably wasn't expecting McGillis to be so quick in pulling the trigger or in that open of a matter. Or he was and decided that it would be better to shore up his own defenses than take a risk with Tekkadan before McG did his move.
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Feb 6, 2017 21:40
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Cao Ni Ma posted:If Iok used deinsleifs on the Isabiri and destroyed/incapacitated it then the suit pilots would have been taken out by attrition. Without booster fuel they would be sitting ducks. Hell you can probably just leave them there and they'd die of starvation at that point. Why risk losing a ship or mobile suits to the small Tekkadan when he has to worry about a well equipped Earth fleet coming for him. He had to guess that Iok being a massive idiot and using illegal weapons was the kind of opening McGillis was waiting for.
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Feb 6, 2017 21:56
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Apprentice Dick posted:Why risk losing a ship or mobile suits to the small Tekkadan when he has to worry about a well equipped Earth fleet coming for him. He had to guess that Iok being a massive idiot and using illegal weapons was the kind of opening McGillis was waiting for. I mean hasn't it been loving obvious now since season 1 that Tekkadan punch way above their weight on this? Its an issue of "You have to face them eventually do you do it now when you have a mafioso acting as a distraction or when you dont have that distraction and instead have a bunch of defecting GH on your rear end as well?"
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Feb 6, 2017 22:19
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Cao Ni Ma posted:I mean hasn't it been loving obvious now since season 1 that Tekkadan punch way above their weight on this? People discounting Tekkadan has been a theme for just as long. They're a small PMC, with two ships where Rustal's fleet has dozens. Yes, Iok might be able to deal with them now, but it would make enemies of Teiwaz and cost resources that would be better spent on dealing with McGillis's real play. I think at this point Rustal thinks of Tekkadan as being a world class welterweight. Good, but if you put them in a ring with Joe Lewis they're going to crumple fast. It's more important to keep the shipping lanes running than to bother swatting a few flies. And, honestly, if they're a threat to Rustal they'd loving ruin Iok's fleet, even if they lost. I mean, the man managed to lose 20% of his forces when going against an opponent who was surrendering. You want to keep an eye on him if you want to get any use from those assets.
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Feb 7, 2017 00:26
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Caros posted:I have to wonder if this was a tactical mistake. Tekkadan is going to be instrumental to McGillis' plans, so letting his troops go and shut them down for good might have actually been the better play, assuming it didn't make him more vulnerable to the coup. Aside from what everyone else has said, the HIGHLY ILLEGAL Dainsleifs were some nasty political ammo that could be used against Rustal for being Iok's CO. Getting Teiwaz to drop the issue is a major victory for him, and keeps Teiwaz out of his hair going forward as a bonus.
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Feb 7, 2017 01:25
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Caros posted:I have to wonder if this was a tactical mistake. Tekkadan is going to be instrumental to McGillis' plans, so letting his troops go and shut them down for good might have actually been the better play, assuming it didn't make him more vulnerable to the coup. The problem was that McMurdo was signalling that Rustal would either have to call his pet off or risk the wrath of Teiwaz. Not the Turbines, not Tekkadan, Teiwaz. And it's been established since the first quarter of Season One that even Gjallarhorn is reluctant to throw down with the Jovian Mafia in any serious capacity. If he decided to let Iok do his thing, he would have destroyed one enemy and gained an even bigger one. Of course, it turned out to be a bad deal anyway because McMurdo wasn't the only one with those combat recordings, but he didn't know that (probably because Iok didn't tell him).
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Feb 7, 2017 01:33
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I think what also motivated Rustal's decision was that Iok needed to be reigned in and shown that his decisions actually have consequences.
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Feb 7, 2017 01:42
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Aside from what everyone else has said, the HIGHLY ILLEGAL Dainsleifs were some nasty political ammo that could be used against Rustal for being Iok's CO. Getting Teiwaz to drop the issue is a major victory for him, and keeps Teiwaz out of his hair going forward as a bonus. But it didnt matter. McGillis still nailed him on the economic bloc war and still tied Iok with the Dainsleif. And the alternative, had they actually gone against Tekkadan in this instance, was that they would have Jasley as Teiwaz leader, so the issue would dropped itself. The progression of the episode made it clear, you think that Rustal did a savvy political move that safeguarded him and Iok and immediately after that scene you have choco-man being a smug rear end in a top hat. He knew he already had them cornered.
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Feb 7, 2017 01:43
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Cao Ni Ma posted:But it didnt matter. McGillis still nailed him on the economic bloc war and still tied Iok with the Dainsleif. Would it have dropped itself, though? Tekkadan is one thing, but McMurdo demonstrated pretty clearly that he's no pushover this episode. I think it can be safely assumed that he had a Plan B to eliminate Jasley if Rustal said no.
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Feb 7, 2017 01:46
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MonsterEnvy posted:Not really. The only damage the Turbines did was the suicidal charge with the ship at the end. To be entirely fair, the Turbines spent 99% of the battle actively refusing to fight offensively in any respect and repeatedly muzzled their ability to fight back in favor of attempting to surrender up until it became apparent that Iok was really intent on killing them all with no surrender allowed. Only then did the Turbines actually counterattack with the suicide charge - which was undertaken by a total of a single mobile suit and a battleship being crewed and controlled by a single person rather than by any force of note - and they still managed to severely damage one ship and completely obliterate another. If Naze's plan had been "lay an ambush and kill the poo poo out of the police when they come for us" it's entirely feasible to believe that Naze could have pretty much completely destroyed Iok and his entire force, especially if Naze had gone to Orga and said "yeah we're gonna throw down, you in?" instead of warning Orga to stay away.
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Feb 7, 2017 02:34
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Still waiting for Nobliss Gordon to do something.
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Feb 7, 2017 13:58
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Gridlocked posted:Still waiting for Nobliss Gordon to do something. The economic bloc thing was a huge wet fart and probably wont happen unless they deal with GH very quickly. Although bringing to heel the economic blocs if GH gets destroyed could be left to an OVA or something.
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Feb 7, 2017 14:02
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Cao Ni Ma posted:The economic bloc thing was a huge wet fart and probably wont happen unless they deal with GH very quickly. Although bringing to heel the economic blocs if GH gets destroyed could be left to an OVA or something. McGillis's powerbase is on Earth, where the blocs are, and he just announced an uprising against the organisation that's been keeping them in line. It seems certain they'll play a part. As for Nobliss, he seems like a natural ally to/money man for McGillis - he wanted a revolution against Gjallarhorn so he could make fat stacks from the ensuing war, and now he's got it.
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Feb 7, 2017 14:09
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Darth Walrus posted:McGillis's powerbase is on Earth, where the blocs are, and he just announced an uprising against the organisation that's been keeping them in line. It seems certain they'll play a part. As for Nobliss, he seems like a natural ally to/money man for McGillis - he wanted a revolution against Gjallarhorn so he could make fat stacks from the ensuing war, and now he's got it. Seriously doubt it. McGillis hosed up his dad on his attempt to do a power play for Abrau. And his help to kudelia was a big middle finger to Nobliss.
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Feb 7, 2017 14:20
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Kanos posted:To be entirely fair, the Turbines spent 99% of the battle actively refusing to fight offensively in any respect and repeatedly muzzled their ability to fight back in favor of attempting to surrender up until it became apparent that Iok was really intent on killing them all with no surrender allowed. Only then did the Turbines actually counterattack with the suicide charge - which was undertaken by a total of a single mobile suit and a battleship being crewed and controlled by a single person rather than by any force of note - and they still managed to severely damage one ship and completely obliterate another. If Naze tried to ambush them. (Which would not have worked. As they were being chased and Iok knew were they were and was expecting a fight) then it would have been even less effective. The suicide charge was the only thing that did damage. Had it been a standard fight without the suicide charge it would have ended when one of the Dainsleifs hit Nazes bridge. Darth Walrus posted:The problem was that McMurdo was signalling that Rustal would either have to call his pet off or risk the wrath of Teiwaz. Not the Turbines, not Tekkadan, Teiwaz. And it's been established since the first quarter of Season One that even Gjallarhorn is reluctant to throw down with the Jovian Mafia in any serious capacity. If he decided to let Iok do his thing, he would have destroyed one enemy and gained an even bigger one. McMurdo and Teiwaz don't want to pick a fight with Rustal. McMurdo already admitted Teiwaz would be crushed by Rustal and Iok. The deal was accepted because Rustal did not want the Dainsleifs brought up and because Rustal had no interest in Jasleys fight. Darth Walrus posted:Would it have dropped itself, though? Tekkadan is one thing, but McMurdo demonstrated pretty clearly that he's no pushover this episode. I think it can be safely assumed that he had a Plan B to eliminate Jasley if Rustal said no.
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Feb 7, 2017 15:55
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MonsterEnvy posted:If Naze tried to ambush them. (Which would not have worked. As they were being chased and Iok knew were they were and was expecting a fight) then it would have been even less effective. The suicide charge was the only thing that did damage. Had it been a standard fight without the suicide charge it would have ended when one of the Dainsleifs hit Nazes bridge. The Turbines had enough foreknowledge that Iok was coming for them and enough time to set up an entire evacuation fleet for the entire staff of the Turbines on station, enough people to fill multiple giant unarmed cargo ships. It would have been really, really easy for them to set a trap that Known Total loving Moron Iok Kujan Who Lost 20% Of A Fleet To One Mobile Suit And An Uncrewed Assault Ship would have blundered into, especially if Naze had called on Tekkadan for help(Hello Isaribi dropping three Gundams into Iok's flank in the middle of the battle). The only reason things turned out the way they did was because Naze believed that shooting up a bunch of space police would simply make matters far worse for everyone involved and he wanted his employees and his friends to remain free of guilt by association. The Dainsleifs aren't invincible wonder weapons, just brutally powerful and effective, and they have pretty clear weaknesses. They are being fired by a bunch of mobile suits that require active loading by other mobile suits, which is a fairly involved process. That falls apart immediately the moment that anyone attempts to engage them in combat, as opposed to the scenario we got which consisted of them being able to fire and reload repeatedly in complete safety because their opponent wasn't actively attempting to fight back in any way initially. If someone like Amida or Mikazuki was busting up the Dainsleif formation they pretty much wouldn't be able to do anything besides scatter and try to defend themselves.
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Feb 7, 2017 19:38
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Kanos posted:The Turbines had enough foreknowledge that Iok was coming for them and enough time to set up an entire evacuation fleet for the entire staff of the Turbines on station, enough people to fill multiple giant unarmed cargo ships. It would have been really, really easy for them to set a trap that Known Total loving Moron Iok Kujan Who Lost 20% Of A Fleet To One Mobile Suit And An Uncrewed Assault Ship would have blundered into, especially if Naze had called on Tekkadan for help(Hello Isaribi dropping three Gundams into Iok's flank in the middle of the battle). The only reason things turned out the way they did was because Naze believed that shooting up a bunch of space police would simply make matters far worse for everyone involved and he wanted his employees and his friends to remain free of guilt by association. Yeah, the Dainsleif get one shot against Tekkadan and then they are done. Mika rips them limb from limb and presumably shoots the inevitable one that finished reloading into Iok's bridge. Keeping Teiwez itself out of the upcoming war by striking a backroom deal was the win for Rustal, but it really feels like it also saved Iok's life considering what Tekkadan would have done to him and his.
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Feb 7, 2017 20:23
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I'm not sure the Turbines could've done much damage to Iok's fleet just due to lack of firepower, not without blowing up their own ships in the process at least. However,Iok has shown time and time again he's a bad commander. He's not completely useless because you can see he laid out a good plan to take out the Turbines, but once the battle actually started he basically kept loving things up for his own side. He spins a yarn about having to be ruthless and whatnot but his actions just resulted in more casualties and made Gjallarhorn look like a bumbling idiot with the largest gun in the room. Instead of using the cease-fire or surrender to his advantage, such as accepting Naze's surrender and then taking him hostage, Iok just wants to play at being the master of the battlefield but he's a total failure at it.
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Feb 7, 2017 21:11
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Those Dainslefs are great anti ship weapons, not really suited to mobile suit warfare unless you have an AV system to help you aim them correctly. And at this point Mika can kill ships on his own, might take him a bit but he can.
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Feb 7, 2017 21:47
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Caros posted:
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Feb 7, 2017 21:57
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Sazabi posted:Actually Tekkaden broke their friendship cup with Teiwaz, so I'll is fair game for a ironic railgun to the bridge courtesy of Well, temporarily saved his life I mean. Iok didn't show up to their most recent fight which is the only reason he didn't get Mika'd.
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Feb 7, 2017 22:05
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Sazabi posted:Actually Tekkaden broke their friendship cup with Teiwaz, so I'll is fair game for a ironic railgun to the bridge courtesy of And now Tekkadan can put all their focus on Iok, when McGillis sets them loose on him.
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Feb 7, 2017 23:18
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Argas posted:I'm not sure the Turbines could've done much damage to Iok's fleet just due to lack of firepower, not without blowing up their own ships in the process at least. However,Iok has shown time and time again he's a bad commander. He's not completely useless because you can see he laid out a good plan to take out the Turbines, but once the battle actually started he basically kept loving things up for his own side. He spins a yarn about having to be ruthless and whatnot but his actions just resulted in more casualties and made Gjallarhorn look like a bumbling idiot with the largest gun in the room. Instead of using the cease-fire or surrender to his advantage, such as accepting Naze's surrender and then taking him hostage, Iok just wants to play at being the master of the battlefield but he's a total failure at it. If Naze is in exile you know Tekkadan will save him. Ioks move at least deprieved Tekkadan of Teiwaz support in both forms.
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Feb 8, 2017 01:24
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It would have been in Iok's best interest to have Naze still be alive. That would give Tekkaden something to focus on and he could be used as a bargaining chip against them. Instead with him gone Tekkaden have lost the last semblance of a restraint on their actions which is definitely a bad think for everybody else.
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Feb 8, 2017 07:14
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Hunt11 posted:It would have been in Iok's best interest to have Naze still be alive. That would give Tekkaden something to focus on and he could be used as a bargaining chip against them. Instead with him gone Tekkaden have lost the last semblance of a restraint on their actions which is definitely a bad think for everybody else. And Tekkadan's response is a loud explosive rescue, this option gets rid of their allies much more easier and turns them to predictable raving animals meant to be put down.
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Feb 8, 2017 08:01
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gyrobot posted:If Naze is in exile you know Tekkadan will save him. Ioks move at least deprieved Tekkadan of Teiwaz support in both forms. I assume you mean held hostage? The main value of holding him hostage initially would be to keep the Turbines from just fleeing, making them even easier prey for Iok's fleet. Or if he was going to be serious about Gjallarhorn's state goals, then they could've confiscated everything they had relatively peacefully. As is, the situation deteriorated and Gjallarhorn took more losses than necessary because Iok wanted to have his ruthless victory where Gjallarhorn took down a violent criminal organization. Either way, Naze surrendering to Gjallarhorn would've likely eliminated Amida as a threat in the process because she's just there to defend the Hammerhead and a surrender would likely involve her surrendering too. Eliminating the rest of the Turbines wasn't really necessary to dismantling the organization, which was already more or less dead because of the accusations against it. Theoretically, if Iok wasn't so motivated to spill the blood of Tekkadan's allies for the sake of his fallen subordinates, then he would've called off the pursuit MS and the dainsleif teams. Though it'd be awfully tempting for Tekkadan to go after the main fleet since non-stupid Iok wouldn't have sent MS after the ships, I think they would've maintained restraint and kept covering the Turbines. Thus, Gjallarhorn has their scapegoat without much blood spilled on either side. Furthermore, though the case against Naze is not exactly airtight, it's not completely hosed up by Gjallarhorn's own use of dainsleifs (presumably, their use in battle made it a lot easier to trace the whole thing back to Iok. One dainsleif unaccounted for could be treated as the one acquired by the Turbines. The rest being taken and with evidence of usage likely made the case against Iok). And Tekkadan is stuck in a position where just going and rescuing Naze would be just about impossible. Even should they succeed, it would completely justify the sort of ruthlessness that Iok envisioned and would also keep McGillis from aiding them even through the most covert of means since he's been careful about not giving Rustal any ammo against him. Teiwaz wouldn't move to help because their ties to Naze remain toxic. The main weakness in this theoretical scenario is that McGillis can still prove Naze is innocent. However, if Tekkadan intervenes before that happens, they're essentially hosed no matter what. Even if it comes out that Naze is innocent after he's rescued, Tekkdan still attacked Gjallarhorn and they'd be hosed. As is though, Iok's actions only served to give him a sip of revenge. Striking the Turbines was meant to get revenge against Tekkadan. The Turbines were presented as the one holding their leash. Victory against them was a stepping stone to the real meal of crushing Tekkadan. Rustal being forced to cover for his rear end prevented him from joining Jasley in battle. And before he could get another chance, he's been publicly smeared as living proof of Gjallarhorn's misdeeds.
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Feb 8, 2017 08:04
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Caros posted:Well, temporarily saved his life I mean. Iok didn't show up to their most recent fight which is the only reason he didn't get Mika'd. And the other reason he did not show up is because Tekkaden would have lost. There simply would have been too many decently trained enemy mobile suits. And extra war ships. Jasleys single ship out numbered them in mobile suits with is forces losing due to inferior skill. Iok's pilots would all be much better then Jasleys and would have out numbered all the other forces by around 10 to 1 or more. The big reason tekkaden is going to be able to fight with Iok and Rustals forces in the future is because McGillis's forces will be helping as well.
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Feb 8, 2017 09:39
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MonsterEnvy posted:And the other reason he did not show up is because Tekkaden would have lost. There simply would have been too many decently trained enemy mobile suits. And extra war ships. Jasleys single ship out numbered them in mobile suits with is forces losing due to inferior skill. Iok's pilots would all be much better then Jasleys and would have out numbered all the other forces by around 10 to 1 or more. Not to go into too many examples, but besides Julieta and her Julia not even being a match for Amedia. Where are these skilled Ghallahorn pilots? And why didn't we see them during the fight with dawn horizon? And let's not pretend Vidar would join in if he was even with Iok's fleet. If Vidar didn't go after The Chocolate man when presented with a fine opportunity to kill him on mars, why would he pick a fight with the king? Critisism or not Tekkaden is not easily threatened in battle. 3 gundams and a sizable force of frame shidens with one special Hekija. The real conflict and vulnerability of our beloved space orphans is off the battlefield. As show two episodes ago with LafterRIP. Although I am really hoping Iok does try and challenge Akihiro in a game of rock paper  scissors.
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Feb 8, 2017 10:40
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Sazabi posted:Although I am really hoping Iok does try and challenge Akihiro in a game of rock paper I dunno, the last time a Gjallarhorn pilot challenged Tekkadan to a duel it didn't exactly go as-planned...
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Feb 8, 2017 10:42
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All I'm saying is Iok seems like a decent guy.
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Feb 8, 2017 10:59
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I look forward to either Julieta snapping at Iok or McGillis just being smug at him and explaining that no it wasn't Tekkadans fault, YOU activated the mobile armour, YOU refused to pull back and YOU got your men killed. Although knowing Iok he'll probably just go "But still!" and finally get murdered super hard. Still hoping for him to destroyed just as much emotionally as physically. He loving deserves it.
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Feb 8, 2017 12:23
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