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the DM added them to initiative in the first place in order to gently caress the rogue over, the players were 100% right to metagame a bit and use that knowledge, gently caress that
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Feb 8, 2017 19:57
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Kurieg posted:The DM added them to the initiative and asked them what they were doing. The DM asked them to metagame. Great, then the entire party was acting and so was their enemy. No problem there. Guy might want to ask his friends why they were being cowards. And no, I'm blaming him for being a bad poster trying to whip up sympathy for his own mistakes. Playing 5e just makes his situation worse.
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Feb 8, 2017 19:56
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I suggested letting me come back as a vampire. The character itself already struggles with morality and that could add a dimension to it as we search to find a cure. It would require a bit of handwaving since I think I'd be a thrall of the head vampire if I have my lore straight, and that wouldn't really work, but it seemed like a good character driven arc that could happen. It wouldn't require retconning the actual fight, my character would suffer so it wouldn't be like I just got off scott free. Seemed like a perfectly suitable compromise to me but the DM isn't going for it, he's undecided on what he wants to do, says he's going to get back to me when he thinks about it. We spent more than 3 hours talking about it, why I thought it was unfair, the exact points where he made errors in rules that had a drastic impact on the outcome, but ultimately he doesn't agree I wasn't treated fairly and is deciding whether to make me stay dead or come to some sort of other solution.
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Feb 8, 2017 19:58
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So the rest of the party should have run 200 yards and thrown themselves at the unkillable enemy out of "bravery" ensuring a TPK rather than one person dying because the DM is power tripping? Seriously Arivia leave the loving thread.
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Feb 8, 2017 20:00
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Arivia posted:Great, then the entire party was acting and so was their enemy. No problem there. Guy might want to ask his friends why they were being cowards. This was a perfectly civil discussion about DMing until you started aggressively making GBS threads it up for no loving reason. You clearly come here to piss in the cornflakes of anyone who likes 5e. Don't pretend. Own it.
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Feb 8, 2017 19:59
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Agent355 posted:I suggested letting me come back as a vampire. The character itself already struggles with morality and that could add a dimension to it as we search to find a cure. It would require a bit of handwaving since I think I'd be a thrall of the head vampire if I have my lore straight, and that wouldn't really work, but it seemed like a good character driven arc that could happen. It wouldn't require retconning the actual fight, my character would suffer so it wouldn't be like I just got off scott free. You talking out of both sides of your mouth and being unwilling to accept that maybe you were wrong isn't helping either. If you want to resolve this like an adult, then giving him some time to think is the right idea.
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Feb 8, 2017 20:01
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Kurieg posted:The DM added them to the initiative and asked them what they were doing. The DM asked them to metagame. they should've said they weren't aware of anything and why are you asking us this although somehow the vampire is talking to them ? and somehow "pressing up against the wall" isn't quite the same as "absolutely motionless and silent". if he bumped into you, or heard you or Jesus Christ there's a million reasons he could roll perception. we have no context. did the vampire already see the party before? did he go "huh that's weird there's 4 of them instead of 5, I wonder if the rogue that's missing is around"
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Feb 8, 2017 20:01
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Kurieg posted:So the rest of the party should have run 200 yards and thrown themselves at the unkillable enemy out of "bravery" ensuring a TPK rather than one person dying because the DM is power tripping? DM's not power tripping. He's doing his job. And part of being the stealthy loner has been that it can come back to bite you in the rear end ever since the thief was added to OD&D. Don't like it, you shouldn't have played one. @Vengarr: Sure. In case you've forgotten, that has been the purpose of the 5e threads on SA literally forever. It's a terrible game written by terrible people who have stalked and harassed goons. There's not really much to defend.
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Feb 8, 2017 20:05
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Arivia posted:How does the party know anything's going on in a combat scope? It's textbook metagaming, responding to things you know about as the player but your character doesn't. Letting that slide is fine, but it means the entirety of the other side of the encounter gets to act too. Maybe just ignore the person or stop responding or talking about the edition ever?
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Feb 8, 2017 20:07
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RC Cola posted:Maybe just ignore the person or stop responding or talking about the edition ever? Nah it's fun to talk about bad things. This is SA, after all.
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Feb 8, 2017 20:07
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mastershakeman posted:they should've said they weren't aware of anything and why are you asking us this I'm happy to keep answering questions if they aren't rhetorical. I'm jut looking for honest feedback. The corridor I was in was on roll20 so I know it was about 30ft wide and the vampire didn't path near me. The party was across an open cavernous area with 3 bridges that I later had to cross, they had been yelling back and forth from long before the actual perception roll so while the distance in roll 20 was just about 200 ft narratively they were just going with it. The mansion is big enough that we could easily hide inside it and people being non-visible was in fact the norm so being unable to see me probably wouldn't be surprising. At the time there was just one person yelling from the balcony to taunt the vampire (which we had also done from time to time) in an attempt to get him closer to the entrance to the cavern and more vulnerable to the sun I was hoping to release on him. The DM explicitly told the players they were aware that something went wrong as the vampire was snarling in animalistic rage as it chased me, so they weren't acting on meta game knowledge but were responding to GM prompts. Agent355 fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Feb 8, 2017 |
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Feb 8, 2017 20:14
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Arivia posted:DM's not power tripping. He's doing his job. And part of being the stealthy loner has been that it can come back to bite you in the rear end ever since the thief was added to OD&D. Don't like it, you shouldn't have played one. "It's your fault for dying because the DM misread the rules, AND its your fault for playing a lovely system, AND its your fault for playing a class I don't like." Speaking of rules quote:Now, I suppose it's time to refer to the elephant in the room. This is not the place to have edition wars about D&D. Seriously, stop it. I don't like the game either, but no need to beat a dead horse and bring down the people who do. Make a separate hatethread if you want, no one is stopping you. Vengarr fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Feb 8, 2017 |
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Feb 8, 2017 20:14
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sometimes it comes back to bite you in the rear end and sometimes the DM gives it 4 mouths to make sure it bites you in the rear end lol the DM shouldn't have even asked for their initiative until he was close enough for the party to actually see what was happening. And if they complain about not being able to act remind them that the vamp gets extra actions if they're on the initiative
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Feb 8, 2017 20:16
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Criticizing a bad game isn't the same as starting edition wars. You may have forgotten what those were like at 4e's release. 5e is an objectively bad game. It is horribly designed. If you want to play it, fine, but you get to take your lumps when the bad poo poo happens.
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Feb 8, 2017 20:18
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Ignore lists aren't that helpful if you guys keep responding to Nehru the Damaja fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Feb 8, 2017 |
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Feb 8, 2017 20:30
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Nehru the Damaja posted:Ignore lists aren't that helpful if you guys keep responding to him. Her. I can't believe no one suggested (and I forgot about) Yakety Sax for my Bard. I'm disappointed in all of you.
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Feb 8, 2017 20:34
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Nehru the Damaja posted:Ignore lists aren't that helpful if you guys keep responding to Totally forgot ignore lists existed. Thanks!
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Feb 8, 2017 20:35
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I'm upset because in one campaign I'm playing an undead hating healbot cleric and haven't seen undead in 5 levels. In the other campaign I'm doing a Curse of Strahd... I wish I made the Cleric for the Strahd campaign is what I'm getting at.
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Feb 8, 2017 20:36
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nelson posted:Totally forgot ignore lists existed. Thanks! RC Cola posted:I'm upset because in one campaign I'm playing an undead hating healbot cleric and haven't seen undead in 5 levels. In the other campaign I'm doing a Curse of Strahd... Whats your CoS character? Vengarr fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Feb 8, 2017 |
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Feb 8, 2017 20:44
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Edit
RC Cola fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Apr 11, 2017 |
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Feb 8, 2017 20:47
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I want to make a Skeleton Wizard with vulnerability to Bludgeoning and resistance to Necrotic damage and see how far I make it before being clubbed to death. I will never get to make a character because all of my friends are too scared to DM 
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Feb 8, 2017 20:51
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Agent355 posted:I'm happy to keep answering questions if they aren't rhetorical. I'm jut looking for honest feedback. Yeah it's just tough to follow. I'm imagining it as this: your party is standing at the door/window of the safe mansion while taunting the vampire loudly. You sneak out to interrupt the ritual. For some reason the vampire takes an action perception roll against you - maybe he figures the taunting is a purposeful distraction, maybe he smells you, maybe he's just protecting his ritual against the only threat there is - a rogue sneaking in. He's undead and just standing around apparently so why not do that? Maybe he sees you move something on the wall when you press against it. Maybe he has a magic item letting him smell better, hear better, have true sight, heat vision, etc. Or maybe the DM just fucks you on deciding to roll. So then he hears you and chases you. I don't think he ever sees you, as he has disadvantage on attacks. Over 7 rounds, he then chases you back to the mansion. On these 7 rounds, your party never moves up except for the cleric at the very end, and the vampire, seeing how you'd almost interrupted the ritual, stays on you as you're the bigger threat. So your cleric is moving up to help and the vampire takes 2 legendary actions (you/cleric) and then other peoplein the party try to help and the vampire takes more. The real issue is that when a sneaking guy goes out he's taking a risk of getting caught. That risk is then massively amplified by your house rule about grapples. Then it's made even worse by the lack of clarification for when legendary actions are used. I think your DM did everything right except maybe the opening perception roll, but again maybe not. Here's a similar story: I was playing a rogue and eavesdropping on two clerics. One started chanting and I ducked back out of line of sight. Then the other said 'take a look at this' and when I peeked around the corner I got hit with a spell. I was concealed easily, so how did that happen? Our DM just refused to say and implied that the priests had spells up or magic items to let them see me. I'll never know if he was justifying after the fact. Then again this is the same DM who just infected the party with bloody smallpox that is going to kill everyone soon so I'm used to a highly lethal style of play mastershakeman fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Feb 8, 2017 |
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Feb 8, 2017 20:54
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Any suggestions/ideas for other types of humanoid or other that a goblin host would have in their ranks? I'm trying to look past the ogres, wolves and typical stuff you might usually find. I'm not trying to go as far as like undead or something that is crazy. Basically things that could be persuaded or forced into their service.
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Feb 8, 2017 21:04
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Big Black Brony posted:Any suggestions/ideas for other types of humanoid or other that a goblin host would have in their ranks? I'm trying to look past the ogres, wolves and typical stuff you might usually find. I'm not trying to go as far as like undead or something that is crazy. Basically things that could be persuaded or forced into their service. Bugbears are good but super typical. I'm a fan of kuo-toa so maybe them?
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Feb 8, 2017 21:21
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mastershakeman posted:Yeah it's just tough to follow. Your version is a bit off in order of operations but close enough. After thinking about it the biggest problems I have are three fold. First, the initial perception roll, as I wasn't sneaking out while being watched, I was already out, standing still with a 22 (I just checked the dice log) stealth. My party taunts the vampire and he starts to walk past me, taunting back, when he rolls a 20 on his check and finds me. I'd argue he should have used passive perception or barring that at least rolled at disadvantage because I was invisble, 15 ft away, and standing still with a 22 stealth. Later I kicked over the ritual but it wasn't good enough, I asked the GM and he explain that I had to disrupt it in a certain way (it was powered by a mummified corpse that needed to be removed from the circle while I only had one action mid-running from vampire and just did as much damage to the magical runes as I could with it) and he didn't consider making roughing up the runes good enough, or maybe good enough with a delayed effect or something. Which is definitely just a judgement call but given I was level 4 and fleeing from a CR13 thing, i think using up some action economy on a hail mary play is a reasonable thing to reward. Lastly the vampire was getting free perception rolls while in pursuit. I was invisible the entire time as that only turns off on an attack action, so I was using my action/cunning action to both dash and get 40-50 ft away and then making a stealth check and sidling another 10 ft carefully and quietly. IMO the vampire would have to use a search action to find an invisible creature rather than just rolling a free perception given I was 40 ft away when I was making my stealth and thats kind of far away to give free checks for. This is pretty judgement call too I suppose, but my stealth was +9 and the vamp had +7 perception so I would have at the very least not liked him to find me consistently like he did. In the end I don't know. I think I'm right but can I do other than state my case. I talked with the GM about it and he is unwilling to do poo poo about it despite how unfair it felt. He hasn't offered any compromises and seems more concerned with preserving the sense of danger present than treating me fairly or listening to my problems. The jury is still out on what he's going to decide in the end but I'm pretty sure I'm just going to quit the group. In the end DnD shouldn't be punishing me for trying cool poo poo that is based on information I gathered from the scenario. I feel punished by the entire thing as the rules in a number of places were either twisted or at the very least interpreted unfavorably every time until the accumulating circumstances killed me. I don't really want to try and create characters that I care about and have depth in a campaign where the DM is out to kill them. 'Threatening death' and 'impending death' are so wildly different and I just get the impression that the DM is the second variety at this point. Agent355 fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Feb 8, 2017 |
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Feb 8, 2017 21:22
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Rolling for monster perception seems kinda silly - "passive perception" or whatever fixed DC the DM decides is reasonable ought to be sufficient to cover everything. If one PC is trying to sneak past another....you hosed up already.
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Feb 8, 2017 21:25
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Your DM is running the game like a jackass and you don't have to respond to Arivia and mastershakeman, both of whom are only here to shitpost and defend the integrity of Forgotten Realms. You don't have to type out and re-type out everything that happened, especially since Arivia called you a liar within two posts. Have a heart to heart with your DM and find a way to make him understand your side and if he won't, just stop playing. You don't have to stop being friends, or be angry at each other. No gaming is better than bad gaming.
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Feb 8, 2017 21:28
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You're level 4, that means you've only had 3 or 4 sessions? Is this his first time DMing? Inexperienced DMs have hard time adjudicating in a panic. I'm an inexperienced DM too, but I think I've gotten around a lot of growing pains by simply asking my players what they think a fair ruling or interpretation is. They're not munchkins, and the one rules lawyer I have enjoys being right even if it's to his detriment.
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Feb 8, 2017 21:31
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We've been playing since early october but it's only bi-weekly and we took all of november off, so this is probably our 10th session or so and he's an experienced GM even before that. He came from some not-DnD system most recently though, one of those ones where combat is deadly and death or dismemberment is just expected. He name dropped it the other day but I can't remember what it was. He's said before that he misses that environment and prefers it over the power fantasy that is DnD. I just really didn't want to just stay in a house and fight waves of zombies for a few days and hope that the sun rose to save us. It was a risk sure but it was a cool risk. E: I've gotten what I need to out of bringing it up, I feel I presented the information as fairly as I could and most people seem to agree with me. Thats enough to at least settle my conscience a little. Whether the DM does or does not decide to finagle me back alive is out of my hands at this point. Agent355 fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Feb 8, 2017 |
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Feb 8, 2017 21:35
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So wait one more clarification, was the vampire getting legendary actions for your entire party when your DM called for initiative checks while they were all standing in the mansion going "well I can't really do anything so I guess I cast Protection from Evil on myself" or was he only getting them once the cleric ran out and the other party members started advancing and casting spells?
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Feb 8, 2017 21:41
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Agent355 posted:We've been playing since early october but it's only bi-weekly and we took all of november off, so this is probably our 10th session or so and he's an experienced GM even before that. Ok, so the DM wants to play a style of game where where PCs are expendable and not really superheroes. You tried to play the game differently, and got punished for it. You two simply don't mesh it looks like.
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Feb 8, 2017 21:44
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Guy A. Person posted:So wait one more clarification, was the vampire getting legendary actions for your entire party when your DM called for initiative checks while they were all standing in the mansion going "well I can't really do anything so I guess I cast Protection from Evil on myself" or was he only getting them once the cleric ran out and the other party members started advancing and casting spells? The DM didn't know what legendary actions were when the combat started which I think is what prompted this portion of the mess. We both DM a 5e campaign but both of our campaigns are the first 5e (but not first pnp) campaigns we've run and we had never seen a creature with legendary actions before. While my party was standing in the mansion going 'we can't do anything' the vampire was taking 2 legendary actions, one after my turn and one after all the friends went. The DM wasn't taking full advantage of it but was using it somewhat. At some point between the time where the combat started and when I died it moved up to 3. This was a turn before the cleric actually left the mansion or 3 turns before I died. At no point in the entire encounter did anybody from my party affect the vampire in anyway, they cast things on themselves and panicked in the mansion. The cleric left the building but ultimately he just ran back inside when he realized that he wasn't going to be able to help either. They were doing things, one person shot at, and missed, the vampire with a bow, so I can understand taking those legendary actions but I still feel that my party 'helping' got me killed. If the vampire only got one legendary action a round (mine) I'm 99% sure I would've been able to escape but not all the legendary actions the vampire took were apropos of nothing at all. SettingSun posted:Ok, so the DM wants to play a style of game where where PCs are expendable and not really superheroes. You tried to play the game differently, and got punished for it. You two simply don't mesh it looks like. Yeah but he also wants us to focus on roleplay over combat. We spend the majority of each session simply talking in character between ourselves and going about our adventuring. I don't like trying to do both the 'expendable' thing and 'flesh out your character' thing. Oil and water IMO.
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Feb 8, 2017 21:47
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Kaysette posted:Bugbears are good but super typical. I'm a fan of kuo-toa so maybe them? According to volo's bugbears are goblinoids, their gods were brought under the banner of magbyulate or whatever.
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Feb 8, 2017 22:04
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Is there any reason the Lucky feat is written the way it is instead of just saying you can spend a luck point to change an attack, skill check or saving roll into advantage or attack roll against you into disadvantage? It sounds like they're describing the same thing (except that you can make the choice after the first roll is made). Wasn't sure if there was any corner case sort of thing that makes the wording matter.
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Feb 8, 2017 23:22
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Big Black Brony posted:According to volo's bugbears are goblinoids, their gods were brought under the banner of magbyulate or whatever. Yeah according to Volo's Margluybut(or whatever) kicked the asses of almost all the other goblinoid gods and either killed them or made them pay fealty to him, including the bugbears and hobgoblins. Nehru the Damaja posted:Is there any reason the Lucky feat is written the way it is instead of just saying you can spend a luck point to change an attack, skill check or saving roll into advantage or attack roll against you into disadvantage? It sounds like they're describing the same thing (except that you can make the choice after the first roll is made). Wasn't sure if there was any corner case sort of thing that makes the wording matter. Because if you use lucky on a roll where you have disadvantage it turns into Mega Advantage as you roll 3 dice and keep the best one.
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Feb 8, 2017 23:24
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Kurieg posted:Because if you use lucky on a roll where you have disadvantage it turns into Mega Advantage as you roll 3 dice and keep the best one. Haha holy poo poo that's busted.
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Feb 8, 2017 23:29
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Hell, your invisibility should've broken when you damaged the runes, that's the real error. Without being there it's hard to know exactly what went down but it seems kind of crazy to think you could sprint 40 feet and then 'move silently' for 10 and not have the vampire know pretty much where you are. Again, he was attacking w/ disadvantage against you. But yeah he probably should've had less legendary actions although again it's unclear. If party members are close enough to shout poo poo they're close enough to dash into action. mastershakeman fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Feb 8, 2017 |
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Feb 8, 2017 23:32
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Next time you run a session, give the big bad an extra 9 attacks a round because there is a dog and her puppies sleeping in a nearby barn and dogs hate vampires. When someone tries to hide have the boss go "what the gently caress is that smell? It smells like foot and rear end had a baby. It seems like it's coming from that corner, better try to waft the stench away with this broadsword." Then explain that they never said their character went to the bathroom or bathed the entire adventure.
Babylon Astronaut fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Feb 8, 2017 |
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Feb 8, 2017 23:36
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This would have never happened in the 4th edition of this thread.
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Feb 9, 2017 00:01
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Nehru the Damaja posted:Haha holy poo poo that's busted. I'm convinced that they didn't originally plan it like that, only some people read the rules that way and they didn't want to admit that the way they phrased Lucky was so bad as to make that interpretation valid, so they just ran with it.
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Feb 9, 2017 00:02
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