Crawl .20: Home of the Frog Dog

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Crawl .20: Home of the Frog Dog

Floodkiller: May 31, 2011

PS: minmay was also the one who suggested and coded the pull request replacing Delayed Fireball with Ignition, despite the concept of the spell going against all the advice they recommend.

# ? Feb 8, 2017 21:17

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 14, 2024 21:23

Internet Kraken: Apr 24, 2010; slightly amused

Yeah summon imp can be very good, but its also somewhat unreliable early on. Conjure flame is completely reliable when you can cast it. The fact that both of these spells are useful isn't a problem. If Duvessa only wants to use summon imp, that's their choice. To think its OP just because they choose to only use it is stupid though. Plenty of players make use of the other spells in the wizard background even more than summon imp.

Plus the entire point of the wizard background is that it takes spells from a bunch of schools so you can branch out into whatever you want. No reason summoning shouldn't be included in that.

# ? Feb 8, 2017 21:22

Fitzy Fitz: May 14, 2005

Why does it matter if a summon happens to be the best spell in a starting book? Is there some rule that conjurations need to be the best? His complaint with every one of those books is that he thinks players should have to use conjurations instead.

# ? Feb 8, 2017 21:24

Darox: Nov 10, 2012

FR: Go full tilt with this and replace Mystic Blast with Gells Gravitas in the Cj book and reflavour them as a hexes/translocations blaster hybrid. Gells has much better synergy with prism than force lance, and it's a neat spell that is disserviced by its current book placement.

# ? Feb 8, 2017 21:23

PleasingFungus: Oct 10, 2012; idiot asshole bitch who should fuck off

Fitzy Fitz posted:

Why does it matter if a summon happens to be the best spell in a starting book? Is there some rule that conjurations need to be the best? His complaint with every one of those books is that he thinks players should have to use conjurations instead.

If you're talking about Haifisch, she's a she, not a he.

Decrepus posted:

My favorite part about playing crawl online is seeing Niggerkiller also playing. It is really funny and good.

We ban nicks like that from bot announcements, but there's not currently a mechanism to automatically ban or censor account names. For better or worse.

# ? Feb 8, 2017 21:30

Fitzy Fitz: May 14, 2005

I was talking about duvessa/minmay's Tavern post. If that is also Haifisch then I'm thoroughly confused and a pronoun's not gonna help.

# ? Feb 8, 2017 21:31

Sage Grimm: Feb 18, 2013; Let's go explorin' little dude!

I've had a hard time working Gell's into my spellcasters, to be honest. It's like Leda's Liquifaction to me; my MP/time feels better spent killing the things approaching rather than delaying them.

Though reading up on it I kind of want to try it in combination with Inner Flame on the center target.

# ? Feb 8, 2017 21:33

Haifisch: Nov 13, 2010; Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!; Taco Defender

Dear god no, I'm not duvessa. Unless I have some sort of split personality where one makes fun of the other's posts.

# ? Feb 8, 2017 21:32

PleasingFungus: Oct 10, 2012; idiot asshole bitch who should fuck off

Fitzy Fitz posted:

I was talking about duvessa/minmay's Tavern post. If that is also Haifisch then I'm thoroughly confused and a pronoun's not gonna help.

Ah, sorry, I lost track of the conversation!

minmay doesn't like ally play in crawl at all, so he's going to complain about anything that involves allies, summoned or otherwise. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

# ? Feb 8, 2017 21:35

Araganzar: May 24, 2003; Needs more cowbell!; Fun Shoe

How is CONJURE flame a summons anyway?

So, I know this is a bad idea, a really bad idea, but I can't help thinking how awesome it would be:

code:

 O - the +15 heavy crossbow "Sniper" (weapon) {velocity, SInv}
 a - the +9 hand crossbow of Prudence {venom, MR+ Int-4 SInv}
 b - +9 arbalest of Pouseff {velocity, +Blink rF+ MR+ Int+1}
Armour
 D - a +1 pair of boots (worn)
 R - the +3 ring mail of the Armoured One (worn) {rC+ Slay+6}
 u - the -3 cloak of the Pit (worn) {Slay+5}
 W - the -2 hat of Submission (worn) {+Inv +Fly rF+ Dex-4 Int+2 Slay+6 Stlth++}
 w - the +1 cloak "Jeyrepu" {rElec Str+3 Dex-1 Stlth++}
 C - the +3 hat of Anaesthesia {Str+4 Int+1}.

Is losing 7 STR 4 DEX and 9AC worth Invis and +11 slaying?

I know it's not, but I'd have a triple crossbow that NEVER MISSES doing 22 base damage with vorpal and +32 slaying.

Or use a shield and have a hand crossbow with +26 slaying...

Araganzar fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Feb 8, 2017

# ? Feb 8, 2017 21:39

PleasingFungus: Oct 10, 2012; idiot asshole bitch who should fuck off

imo the base damage & delay difference between those two weapons is the important thing

# ? Feb 8, 2017 21:42

Sage Grimm: Feb 18, 2013; Let's go explorin' little dude!

I'd ditch the -3 cloak with Slay+5 since you already have a wealth of it and your alternative is pretty good. And yes if you have an unrandart that works with your build you are obliged to take it and use it and drat the consequences.

# ? Feb 8, 2017 21:46

Darox: Nov 10, 2012

Sage Grimm posted:

I've had a hard time working Gell's into my spellcasters, to be honest. It's like Leda's Liquifaction to me; my MP/time feels better spent killing the things approaching rather than delaying them.

Though reading up on it I kind of want to try it in combination with Inner Flame on the center target.

Gells is awkward because it's a hexes/translocations that wants spellpower and the one starting book that has it is a bad start, especially for investing in spells.

If you actually find it on a character with relevant investment (enchanter is pretty good here) it's a surprisingly good AoE damage spell that requires multiple enemies to set it up. If you encounter a large pack of enemies you can quickly whittle down their hp while killing a couple.

# ? Feb 8, 2017 21:46

Araganzar: May 24, 2003; Needs more cowbell!; Fun Shoe

PleasingFungus posted:

imo the base damage & delay difference between those two weapons is the important thing

Sniper is ridiculous. The bad idea would be swapping out a +1 hat and +3 cloak for a -2 hat and -3 cloak. I also have 15 shields

Sage Grimm posted:

I'd ditch the -3 cloak with Slay+5 since you already have a wealth of it and your alternative is pretty good.

Yeah. The hat is the killer, slay 6 and lots of egos but I lose 5AC.

I've been using hand crossbows quite a bit lately over throwing or slings when I find myself using a shield (usually with unarmed). They do really decent damage, you can get desirable egos, and they hit as hard as a demon blade. You hit min delay at 10 skill and you can get by with 5-6 skill for a long time. It's really nice when you are unarmed and have no use for enchant weapon or brand weapon scrolls.

# ? Feb 8, 2017 21:49

Darth Windu: Mar 17, 2009; by Smythe

PleasingFungus posted:

Ah, sorry, I lost track of the conversation!

minmay doesn't like ally play in crawl at all, so he's going to complain about anything that involves allies, summoned or otherwise. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

I'm worried about it since it seems like the devs listen to him

# ? Feb 8, 2017 21:55

Ugly John: Jul 18, 2009; [img]https://forums.somethingawful.com/attachment.php?postid=514899866[/img]

PleasingFungus posted:

Ah, sorry, I lost track of the conversation!

minmay doesn't like ally play in crawl at all, so he's going to complain about anything that involves allies, summoned or otherwise. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

*waves hand* These aren't the trunk changes you're looking for...

# ? Feb 8, 2017 22:10

SKULL.GIF: Jan 20, 2017

Flavor, after a long absence, is finally being reintroduced into our game of strictly spreadsheets and mathematical formulas.

Also, there is a new dev blog post.

# ? Feb 8, 2017 22:30

Araganzar: May 24, 2003; Needs more cowbell!; Fun Shoe

SKULL.GIF posted:

Flavor, after a long absence, is finally being reintroduced into our game of strictly spreadsheets and mathematical formulas.

Also, there is a new dev blog post.

Strong finish on those patch notes:

code:

The legendary titan, Antaeus, is no longer terrified of the level 3 spell �Conjure Flame�.
Monster Upheaval no longer increases in power with the player�s Invocations skill.
Frogs can now ribbit, croak, or, under very special circumstances, bellow.
Mushrooms caps have been banned.
Vampire mages now have ghost hands.

# ? Feb 8, 2017 22:52

Mr. Lobe: Feb 23, 2007; ... Dry bones...

Ghost hands? What does that mean?

# ? Feb 8, 2017 23:10

Haifisch: Nov 13, 2010; Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!; Taco Defender

They added a little weird blob to the tile so it could display weapons without looking weird(er than it currently does).

# ? Feb 8, 2017 23:12

Prism: Dec 22, 2007; yospos

Mr. Lobe posted:

Ghost hands? What does that mean?

Their tile doesn't have visible hands and are tucked in their cloak too closely to put the weapon icons on their sprite, but they can hold weapons, so they gave them a floating telekinesis hand thing to do that.

It looks kinda dumb IMO but it's not like there's a good way to do it short of totally redrawing their tile (which looks pretty good aside from the weapons thing).

# ? Feb 8, 2017 23:13

PleasingFungus: Oct 10, 2012; idiot asshole bitch who should fuck off

credit for the frog noises goes to the SA thread in general and Haif in particularly, btw. ty to all

Darth Windu posted:

I'm worried about it since it seems like the devs listen to him

we listen to a lot of people. we even listen to you sometimes! (classic blunder...)

# ? Feb 8, 2017 23:24

LazyMaybe: Aug 18, 2013; oouagh

Darox posted:

I've never seen anything choose to walk into miasma clouds though so I find conjure flame is usually stronger overall.

You can put miasma clouds on top of things with corpse rot though, plus it slows.

Conjure flame is still stronger but corpse rot is level 2 and singleschool so you can get it castable quite a bit faster, so I suppose it depends how much that matters to you. Naturally something like a FE who has access to conjure flame will always take it instead and it'll be up fast anyways.

Darth Windu posted:

That's actually bad an exactly what people like me have been complaining about. The game caters to players like minmay and yourself who know all the tricks and want it to be harder. Stop making the game harder!!

when have I said I want the game to be harder?

# ? Feb 8, 2017 23:29

apple: May 18, 2003; Jose in the club wearing orange suspenders

In other news I tried gnollcrawl where you can't gain XP whatsoever and every enemy is a gnoll (sometimes gnoll sergeants) and died after trying to do a Ziggurat, it's pretty easy if you have the patience to kite with a spear wielding CeBe until floorgod turns you into a "15-rune" character but I died to hubris. :saddowns:

# ? Feb 8, 2017 23:46

Haifisch: Nov 13, 2010; Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!; Taco Defender

Ignorance just became slightly more viable to use:

quote:

Make Ignorance slightly less ignorant

Drop the AC, reduce the Int penalty, and boost the SH value. This should
make it more of a choice for non-Chei characters; the old Int malus was
usually too punishing to be worth considering.

SH is +10 now and Int is -4 instead of -6.

PleasingFungus posted:

credit for the frog noises goes to the SA thread in general and Haif in particularly, btw. ty to all

Flavor contributions are the most important contributions.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 00:21

Darth Windu: Mar 17, 2009; by Smythe

PleasingFungus posted:

credit for the frog noises goes to the SA thread in general and Haif in particularly, btw. ty to all

we listen to a lot of people. we even listen to you sometimes! (classic blunder...)

It doesn't feel like it since my list of demands has not been met

# ? Feb 9, 2017 00:43

Fitzy Fitz: May 14, 2005

SKULL.GIF posted:

Flavor, after a long absence, is finally being reintroduced into our game of strictly spreadsheets and mathematical formulas.

Also, there is a new dev blog post.

Lots of good changes imo!

I'm withholding judgment on battlesphere because I never played conjurers.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 02:11

Floodkiller: May 31, 2011

Mutation game reform is upon us!

Cure Mut, Benemut, and Mut have been merged into a single potion (with all three weights combining together) into a single potion of mutability. This strips 2-6 mutations, adds 3 random mutations, and adds one positive mutation. If you get mutated, your stuck in the mutation game outside of Zin, but you are much more likely to have the ability to cure yourself of something incredibly awful (although you may replace it with something else awful, but less so). The downside to this for clean freaks is that you must worship Zin to stay completely mundane, as there is no cure all solution anymore. The downside to mut lovers is that you need to eat purple chunks or worship Xom/Jiyva to possibly chance yourself into the higher levels of certain mutations.

At first glance, I like this (although I still dislike the idea of malmutators), as the high spawn rate helps to make sure you don't get shafted by one or two incredibly poor malmutates, but still keeps the fun of having some mutations to play around if you have to quaff. I'll have to try it in action, however, to get a full opinion.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 03:28

Prism: Dec 22, 2007; yospos

Floodkiller posted:

Mutation game reform is upon us!

Cure Mut, Benemut, and Mut have been merged into a single potion (with all three weights combining together) into a single potion of mutability. This strips 2-6 mutations, adds 3 random mutations, and adds one positive mutation. If you get mutated, your stuck in the mutation game outside of Zin, but you are much more likely to have the ability to cure yourself of something incredibly awful (although you may replace it with something else awful, but less so). The downside to this for clean freaks is that you must worship Zin to stay completely mundane, as there is no cure all solution anymore. The downside to mut lovers is that you need to eat purple chunks or worship Xom/Jiyva to possibly chance yourself into the higher levels of certain mutations.

At first glance, I like this (although I still dislike the idea of malmutators), as the high spawn rate helps to make sure you don't get shafted by one or two incredibly poor malmutates, but still keeps the fun of having some mutations to play around if you have to quaff. I'll have to try it in action, however, to get a full opinion.

Looking at it, I like it. I love playing with mutations; I just don't like malmutate. This seems to be up my alley. I want to see it in action before I make a decision, though.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 03:34

Speleothing: May 6, 2008; Spare batteries are pretty key.

This is not the reform we were asking for.

We want reform of Malmutate (the enemy spell that ruins characters), not more cheap bandaid jobs onto CureMut

# ? Feb 9, 2017 03:39

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

I like this change

# ? Feb 9, 2017 03:48

Darox: Nov 10, 2012

So if you get screwed by the RNG you now have to rely on more RNG to get out of the hole instead of having a reliable cleaner.

Oh boy :geno:

quote:

These choices are not very interesting.
Cure Mutation in effect becomes a tax paid for making positioning
mistakes against malmutators, and when they run out of !cmut, then for
some players malmutators become top priorities, with a risk of
'permanently ruining' their character if they become too malmutated.

Oops I forgot only bad players get malmutated and the fact that monsters can inflict permanent damage to your character in a single turn from max LoS the moment you see them is just the result of bad positioning. Bad players don't know that you should be casting summon butterflies after every step to block cacos and shining eyes. Good players also make sure to dodge hell contam proc.

The new potion is neat but malmut is still hot garbage.

e: Does summon butterflies still exist? I haven't bothered with that spell for several versions. Feel free to mentally replace it with spammals or undead or whatever.

Darox fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Feb 9, 2017

# ? Feb 9, 2017 03:59

Darth Windu: Mar 17, 2009; by Smythe

Mutations should only be good imo
Or neutral

# ? Feb 9, 2017 04:04

Haifisch: Nov 13, 2010; Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!; Taco Defender

I like the idea of the new potion(since I normally inhale enough purple to do what it does anyway), but having no way to just reset your muts outside of Zin is bullshit. Also :laffo:

at the continued insistence that positioning mistakes are the only way you'll ever get malmutated.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 04:04

SKULL.GIF: Jan 20, 2017

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that people were bad players for being malmutated. I get malmutated all the time! Mistakes happen all the time, especially in a game with as many thousands of moves as a given Crawl playthrough has.

For what it's worth, the potion is much better in practice than it sounds on paper, in terms of wiping bad stuff off your character. Or at least, that's what playtesting indicated to me.

Speleothing posted:

This is not the reform we were asking for.

We want reform of Malmutate (the enemy spell that ruins characters), not more cheap bandaid jobs onto CureMut

What would a satisfactory reform of Malmutate look like? Removal does not count as reform, by the way.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 04:12

vOv: Feb 8, 2014

I'm looking forward to testing this, actually. Might even drink it on an unmutated character.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 04:12

Haifisch: Nov 13, 2010; Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!; Taco Defender

SKULL.GIF posted:

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that people were bad players for being malmutated. I get malmutated all the time! Mistakes happen all the time, especially in a game with as many thousands of moves as a given Crawl playthrough has.

Fair. It was just annoying seeing that line of reasoning be used to justify "removing rmut isn't thaaaat bad, just position better" before, and then having it pop up again here.

quote:

What would a satisfactory reform of Malmutate look like? Removal does not count as reform, by the way.

I've seen suggestions for either making it all temporary, or making it temporary unless you get hit with it enough in a short span of time. The latter's probably the best middle ground between removing it and leaving it in its current state, imo.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 04:17

Scaramouche: Mar 26, 2001; SPACE FACE! SPACE FACE!

Potion of Resistance also protects against mutation

EDIT-Sorry, that's a suggestion, not a statement of fact

# ? Feb 9, 2017 04:21

Eela6: May 25, 2007; Shredded Hen

SKULL.GIF posted:

What would a satisfactory reform of Malmutate look like? Removal does not count as reform, by the way.

Change the attack to a petrifying-breath esque cloud, that you can move out of to avoid mutation (at the cost of being attacked by whatever enemies are around) . I'm thinking of the way the cateoblepas works.

With this change, being caught by malmutate would quite literally be a positioning mistake.

code:

The <foo> begins to to channel mutagenic energy! 

You are surrounded by Mutagenic radiation! <<more>>

You feel your body starting to twist unnaturally.

Eela6 fucked around with this message at 04:25 on Feb 9, 2017

# ? Feb 9, 2017 04:22

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 14, 2024 21:23

Social Studies 3rd Period: Oct 31, 2012; THUNDERDOME LOSER

SKULL.GIF posted:

What would a satisfactory reform of Malmutate look like? Removal does not count as reform, by the way.

my biggest beef - and this may not be everybody's - is that there's the situation where a neq or whatever comes around the corner and whoops! you have a mutation. or oofs! had a game where an OoF in zot saw me and gave me teleportitis pretty quick. first mut it gave me. and had a lot of issue with finding cmut in that game.

these situations where you can't a.) do anything in time or b.) can't kill the thing in time, are frustrating. you can outrun the situations sometime, but not always / it's not always an option. personally i think these situations kinda suck? esp. with teleportitis, etc.

I understand why rMut went and agree with the decision ultimately. I think part of the issue was also a communication that wasn't worded well or not received properly - 'we took out rMut but will reform Malmutate' and well, here we are. But now it just kinda sucks in situations like the above and it just feels like 'welp'

Admittedly my only thought is perhaps a 1-2 turn (?) channel (?) time to malmutate? idk

But thank you for being communicative on changes. (same goes to all the devs here)

# ? Feb 9, 2017 04:31

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Crawl .20: Home of the Frog Dog

«‹›243 »