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jabby posted:Is there any evidence, at all, that voting for Article 50 has cost Corbyn or Labour a significant amount of support? The psuedo-liberal media are heavily criticising Corbyn for it (including Nick Clegg in an editorial for the Evening Standard if you like that flavour of irony), but it's not like any of those publications were pro-Corbyn in the first place. Anecdotally, some of my Labour-voting friends and colleagues aren't happy with Labour about the voting, but I'm not sure any of them would change their vote over it, because they won't vote Tory and the Lib Dems are still a complete joke. I guess Labour have 3 years to point out every [edit] 1954, USA begins mass vaccination of children against polio, what would prove to be the most successful global vaccination campaign ever. If only they had a vaccine for Conservativism.
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Feb 8, 2017 23:25
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Pissflaps posted:It's been voted for by labour. Twice. It's no longer a 'Tory Brexit'. Labour amendments have been rejected and the tory government has clearly shown it wants full control over the negotiations and their objectives. It is a tory brexit. If the tories want full control of the negotiations, they can have full control of the blame as well. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Feb 8, 2017 |
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Feb 8, 2017 23:26
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OwlFancier posted:Labour amendments have been rejected and the tory government has clearly shown it wants full control over the negotiations and their objectives. It is a tory brexit. Yet labour still voted for it. A consequence of supporting something is that you can no longer distance yourself from it. Labour had the opportunity to vote against it when their amendments (utterly predictably) failed. Instead Corbyn imposed a three line whip. Nobody is going to buy the poo poo you're peddling.
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Feb 8, 2017 23:29
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OwlFancier posted:Labour amendments have been rejected and the tory government has clearly shown it wants full control over the negotiations and their objectives. It is a tory brexit. Wringing your hands and murmuring "well, if you guys think it's a good idea..." is not opposition. If they don't want the job they should get another one.
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Feb 8, 2017 23:34
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That isn't how our government works and anybody who does not recognize that is an idiot. I found Labour's rhetorical position clear and its legislative position irrelevant, as should you.
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Feb 8, 2017 23:34
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kingturnip posted:The psuedo-liberal media are heavily criticising Corbyn for it (including Nick Clegg in an editorial for the Evening Standard if you like that flavour of irony), but it's not like any of those publications were pro-Corbyn in the first place. The problem with people only thinking of Labour as the least bad choice is that it will lead to growing apathy in the electorate, not that Labour can still count on those votes.
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Feb 8, 2017 23:35
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OwlFancier posted:Labour amendments have been rejected and the tory government has clearly shown it wants full control over the negotiations and their objectives. It is a tory brexit. Do you actually believe this?
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Feb 8, 2017 23:36
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OwlFancier posted:That isn't how our government works and anybody who does not recognize that is an idiot. I found Labour's rhetorical position clear and its legislative position irrelevant, as should you. Labour aren't in government. They're in opposition. It is how opposition works.
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Feb 8, 2017 23:36
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Cerv posted:Do you actually believe this? He'd support the drowning of puppies if Corbyn was caught with a black bag of baby labradors.
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Feb 8, 2017 23:37
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OwlFancier posted:Labour amendments have been rejected and the tory government has clearly shown it wants full control over the negotiations and their objectives. It is a tory brexit. Isn't this what abstention exists for though
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Feb 8, 2017 23:38
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Cerv posted:Do you actually believe this? Of course I believe it, The alternative is as farcical as saying "Oh well I know that it was a Labour government that initiated the Iraq war and dictated the execution of it but, y'know, the tories voted for it too so it's really not only Labour's fault." Majority governments own their own loving stupid decisions. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Feb 8, 2017 |
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Feb 8, 2017 23:38
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kustomkarkommando posted:Isn't this what abstention exists for though Unless it has actual material effects, how the rest of the house votes is entirely irrelevant other than as a rhetorical tool. The problem with, say, Harman's abstention on welfare was that it was a rhetorical abstention as well. Labour could have abstained, voted for, or against, I don't really care. Hence why I supported a free vote. What matters is their rhetorical position because that is the only power they have. Which I think is quite clearly "Support Brexit provided the rights of UK residents are protected to the utmost degree."
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Feb 8, 2017 23:40
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OwlFancier posted:Majority governments own their own loving stupid decisions. Hang on - the difference here is the decision here was directly by the people? That's the entire justification you people give for Labour refusing to do their job and oppose it? You can't have it both ways sunshine.
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Feb 8, 2017 23:43
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Pissflaps posted:Hang on - the difference here is the decision here was directly by the people? That's the entire justification you people give for Labour refusing to do their job and oppose it? What does the direct democracy argument have to do with anything? Other than possibly a supporting argument for the pro-brexit part of Labour's platform? Tories are the government that is doing brexit, Labour were the government that did the Iraq war, they are each culpable for their governmental stupidity.
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Feb 8, 2017 23:45
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OwlFancier posted:Unless it has actual material effects, how the rest of the house votes is entirely irrelevant other than as a rhetorical tool. The final vote is the cap to your rhetorical positioning though - supporting an a50 bill with no safeguard you insisted where essential for its passage but then you decided weren't is a bit dissonant
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Feb 8, 2017 23:45
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OwlFancier posted:What does the direct democracy argument have to do with anything? Other than possibly a supporting argument for the pro-brexit part of Labour's platform? It's the reason you people give for labour being unable to oppose it.
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Feb 8, 2017 23:46
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For gently caress's sake, it's hard to imagine how Labour could have played this worse than they have. It's not just the whipping over the last few days - it's the complete failure of the responsibilities of Opposition since the referendum campaign started. Corbyn and his dismal band of acolytes - and the £3 former Nick Clegg fans - have failed the working people of this country - handed it over to the very worst of the Tory Right. Brexit is going to be sooooo much fun for the most vulnerable in this country. He should hang his head in shame. Stupid, lazy, useless oval office.
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Feb 8, 2017 23:47
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kustomkarkommando posted:The final vote is the cap to your rhetorical positioning though - supporting an a50 bill with no safeguard you insisted where essential for its passage but then you decided weren't is a bit dissonant Eh, marginally. Opposing an A50 bill when "support brexit" is part of your platform is also dissonant. There isn't really a way to convey a conditional position with yes/no/whatever votes. Pissflaps posted:It's the reason you people give for labour being unable to oppose it. I don't give a flying gently caress about the "direct democratic virtue" of the referendum or whatever. It was a stupid referendum predicated on outright lies. It has gently caress all value as far as I'm concerned.
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Feb 8, 2017 23:47
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Mass abstention strikes me as a particularly cowardly and childish thing to do.TheHoodedClaw posted:Stupid, lazy, useless oval office.
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Feb 8, 2017 23:47
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TheHoodedClaw posted:For gently caress's sake, it's hard to imagine how Labour could have played this worse than they have. It's not just the whipping over the last few days - it's the complete failure of the responsibilities of Opposition since the referendum campaign started. Corbyn and his dismal band of acolytes - and the £3 former Nick Clegg fans - have failed the working people of this country - handed it over to the very worst of the Tory Right. Brexit is going to be sooooo much fun for the most vulnerable in this country. This guys gets it.
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Feb 8, 2017 23:48
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OwlFancier posted:Eh, marginally. Opposing an A50 bill when "support brexit" is part of your platform is also dissonant. There isn't really a way to convey a conditional position with yes/no/whatever votes. Again the magic of abstention which is neither supporting or opposing
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Feb 8, 2017 23:49
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Pissflaps posted:It's been voted for by labour. Twice. It's no longer a 'Tory Brexit'. Forgot that Labour aren't blamed for Iraq
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Feb 8, 2017 23:49
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OwlFancier posted:Attempting to table amendments is the opposition to tory brexit, simply not opposition to brexit itself. lol at expecting the British public to understand this level of parliamentary procedure. People, if they care to look, look to see who voted for what & no further than that. A Corbyn lead Labour Party will have a hell of a time explaining that.
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Feb 8, 2017 23:50
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kustomkarkommando posted:Again the magic of abstention which is neither supporting or opposing "You support brexit but won't vote for it." Again, there is no voting position which can convey any sort of conditional position. forkboy84 posted:lol at expecting the British public to understand this level of parliamentary procedure. People, if they care to look, look to see who voted for what & no further than that. A Corbyn lead Labour Party will have a hell of a time explaining that. Then that is their drat fault. Again there is no voting position which can magically convey anything other than unconditional support, unconditional opposition, or unconditional apathy to those inclined to look at it that way.
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Feb 8, 2017 23:51
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Namtab posted:Forgot that Labour aren't blamed for Iraq Iraq is definitely the hot topic tonight good call.
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Feb 8, 2017 23:51
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We do not oppose brexit so we will not vote against this bill. However we can not vote in favour of this bill railroaded through the house with no consideration for a national consensus as opposed to shallow Tory party politics
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Feb 8, 2017 23:52
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kustomkarkommando posted:We do not oppose brexit so we will not vote against this bill. However we can not vote in favour of this bill railroaded through the house with no consideration for a national consensus as opposed to shallow Tory party politics If you're charitably inclined yes. If not, no. Again, voting is not a sufficient method of interpreting a remotely nuanced political platform.
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Feb 8, 2017 23:54
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I mean if your going to emphasis that Brexit is must happen due to the popular will you might as well go all out on a "were all in it together" call for cross party engagement to pull the best and brightest from all camps and take about national unity and all that jibber jabber
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Feb 8, 2017 23:54
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OwlFancier posted:If you're charitably inclined yes. If not, no. Again, voting is not a sufficient method of interpreting a remotely nuanced political platform. Unfortunately parliament exists and there are votes, an unfortunate part of politics
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Feb 8, 2017 23:55
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kustomkarkommando posted:I mean if your going to emphasis that Brexit is must happen due to the popular will you might as well go all out on a "were all in it together" call for cross party engagement to pull the best and brightest from all camps and take about national unity and all that jibber jabber You could but I don't think Labour want to do that and I think their position is better for it. kustomkarkommando posted:Unfortunately parliament exists and there are votes, an unfortunate part of politics And there are idiots who look for any excuse to validate their own prior opinion. Either way, I don't think there is any voting position which is really good for Labour on this issue, I simply hope they stick to their message. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Feb 8, 2017 |
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Feb 8, 2017 23:55
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OwlFancier posted:If you're charitably inclined yes. If not, no. Again, voting is not a sufficient method of interpreting a remotely nuanced political platform. Jesus Christ.
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Feb 8, 2017 23:57
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The countryside is racist and labour's platform is too nuanced to be represented by mere parliamentary votes.
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Feb 8, 2017 23:58
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OwlFancier posted:Either way, I don't think there is any voting position which is really good for Labour on this issue, I simply hope they stick to their message. The message that they are in favour of Brexit?
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Feb 8, 2017 23:59
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big scary monsters posted:The message that they are in favour of Brexit? Conditionally. I mean I guess you could credibly change the platform if you changed leader but I suspect a Remain platform would make about as much sense as a "close the door on the empty stable" platform.
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Feb 9, 2017 00:00
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Jeremy Corbyn needs to stand down
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Feb 9, 2017 00:01
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OwlFancier posted:Conditionally. The condition being if the Tories go for it first.
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Feb 9, 2017 00:01
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Junkozeyne posted:The problem with people only thinking of Labour as the least bad choice is that it will lead to growing apathy in the electorate, not that Labour can still count on those votes. Yeah, I was hopeful with Corbyn because he didn't seem to be least-bad. Regardless of his principles if he's still least-bad we have a problem again.
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Feb 9, 2017 00:01
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Looke posted:Jeremy Corbyn needs to stand down No he needs to be humiliated at the next general election and have his idiot nose rubbed in the poo poo he's done on the carpet.
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Feb 9, 2017 00:01
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Pissflaps posted:No he needs to be humiliated at the next general election and have his idiot nose rubbed in the poo poo he's done on the carpet. I don't really think you're much of a Labour supporter.
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Feb 9, 2017 00:02
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OwlFancier posted:I don't really think you're much of a Labour supporter. I don't think you're a labour supporter at all.
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Feb 9, 2017 00:03
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