|
TheHoodedClaw posted:Assuming the Lords can't change anything, there's not going to *be* any opportunities to get better deals out of the ruling party. Hmm maybe somebody could hint at 'extra parliamentary action' and hope somebody else sets fire to a bin.
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 02:51 |
|
|
forkboy84 posted:Please stop engaging with the smug oval office. Some days you have a migraine, and can kill two birds with one stone by riling up an idiot and making people suffer with me at the same time. It's efficient.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:34
|
|
|
spectralent posted:Arguably Labour could've attempted to scout out tory rebels and force amendments, Don't take this as a defence of Labour's strategy, but there were significant numbers of these conversations going on behind the scenes. Ultimately, May's white paper and the parliamentary vote were enough for her to keep her rebels in line, and if they won't rebel, there's no chance of stopping the vote.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:35
|
|
|
Kokoro Wish posted:Some days you have a migraine, and can kill two birds with one stone by riling up an idiot and making people suffer with me at the same time. It's efficient. You've not 'riled me up', Corbyn's support for the Tories has. Though if your desired outcome was to piss off labour voters then congratulations you've achieved it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:36
|
|
|
TheRat posted:Remain isnt a thing, and hasnt been a thing since June 23rd 2016. The only thing that needed representation was getting the best possible version of Leave, and even that was a symbolic fight because of the Tories having strict majority. oh right i forgot i stopped existing on the 23rd thank you for your helpful reminder
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:36
|
|
|
So does anyone remember how UK agreed to uphold a portion of it's commitment to resettle child refugees in Britain, as part of the whole Calais jungle cleanup operation? Yeah, turns out it's not happening, as the Home Office announced while everyone is distracted with over Brexit. But please criticise the EU some more about being a "fortress Europe" to refugees. Oh wait there's a justification too: quote:The immigration minister said on Wednesday that local authorities had said they only had the capacity to provide places for 400 unaccompanied asylum-seeking children until the end of March. That is 350 (it's actually only 350 somehow) total, for the whole country, to the end of the program. The (reduced) commitment was 3000 and that had a backing of an independent analysis as to it's feasibility. gently caress the Tories.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:36
|
|
|
ElNarez posted:if you want to blame someone for this, blame Miliband for being a poo poo leader and a poo poo campaigner above all else To be fair he was campaigning on a new-labour "more of the last lot" platform at the time. And to be more fair, people still thought austerity worked. People probably still do and we hit the usual issue of "most the country is made of morons who're really bad at critical thinking and their votes all count the same".
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:40
|
|
|
spectralent posted:oh right i forgot i stopped existing on the 23rd thank you for your helpful reminder You didnt stop existing, you were just in denial. If you think this is a shitshow, what do you think would happen if brexit was called off? People would be beating immigrants and leftwing politicans to death with copies of the daily mail on an hourly basis
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:40
|
|
|
ElNarez posted:if you want to blame someone for this, blame Miliband for being a poo poo leader and a poo poo campaigner above all else Miliband has nothing to do with what's happened now. Stop scapegoating someone who is now irrelevant for over two years. Pissflaps posted:I know I'm right about most things. I would really prefer if you'd be quiet. But yes you are correct.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:40
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:I don't really think you're much of a Labour supporter. He says he supports Labour, claims to be at least part-Scottish, and is a detestable little oval office. He's Jim Murphy.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:40
|
|
|
Amazing. Tonight of all nights you people try to make it about your petty little vendettas against me.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:42
|
|
|
TheRat posted:You didnt stop existing, you were just in denial. If you think this is a shitshow, what do you think would happen if brexit was called off? People would be beating immigrants and leftwing politicans to death with copies of the daily mail on an hourly basis Sure, which is why we need the counternarrative which means we actually need representation for the other half of the argument. Arguing that leave won so everyone has to live with it is like arguing that the tories won so we don't need an opposition.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:44
|
|
|
spectralent posted:Sure, which is why we need the counternarrative which means we actually need representation for the other half of the argument. Arguing that leave won so everyone has to live with it is like arguing that the tories won so we don't need an opposition. The issue with representing the remain argument is that there isn't anything that anyone other than the tories can do about it, and it won't be relevant by the time it comes to a general election. So, it's a bit of a dead end, politically.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:45
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:The issue with representing the remain argument is that there isn't anything that anyone other than the tories can do about it, and it won't be relevant by the time it comes to a general election. That depends on how long the Brexit negotiations take and when the general election is. Unless the opposition throws its lot in with the government. Whoops.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:47
|
|
|
spectralent posted:Arguing that leave won so everyone has to live with it is like arguing that the tories won so we don't need an opposition. This would only be true if there was a seperate general election on every single part of the tory manifesto.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:47
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:The issue with representing the remain argument is that there isn't anything that anyone other than the tories can do about it, and it won't be relevant by the time it comes to a general election. It makes you the guys who can say "I told you so". TheRat posted:This would only be true if there was a seperate general election on every single part of the tory manifesto. What? No. If there was a referendum on everything there would still be a worthwhile role in the opposition scrutinising, amending and publicising problems with the government's implementation.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:47
|
|
|
forkboy84 posted:Oh gently caress off. It's not a rhetorical position (and even if it is, it's a poo poo one that will piss off pro-Remain supporters while not going far enough to win over Leave voters). And it's hardly the only lovely thing he's done in 18 months, just the straw that broke the camels back. He's been poison as leader in polling, and has failed to deliver the only expectations I've had as far as reform of internal Labour Party democracy and dragging the national dialogue in the country to the left and to a slightly more compassionate place. I'm not abandoning him, I'm expressing frustration at his flaws. Which is what you do with any loving politician for godsake. Just because he's the first left Labour leader since Foot doesn't mean you give him a free pass on everything loving stupid he says or does, we're not a cult for fucksake. As far as today's vote goes, it is a rhetorical position. Whether Labour voted yes, no or abstain, whipped or free, affects nothing apart from how they are perceived by the country. By all means express frustration with Corbyn, my issue is more with people saying they're no longer going to support him/vote for him over this decision. Corbyn is currently the only left-wing option, and the Labour right is willing to do absolutely anything, including exploiting disaffection with him to run a candidate that lies their rear end off about being left wing (see: Owen Smith) in order to take the leadership.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:48
|
|
|
spectralent posted:It makes you the guys who can say "I told you so". They think that a Labour Party who voted for it can still somehow say this.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:48
|
|
|
TheRat posted:You didnt stop existing, you were just in denial. If you think this is a shitshow, what do you think would happen if brexit was called off? People would be beating immigrants and leftwing politicans to death with copies of the daily mail on an hourly basis  if you don't think this isn't going to happen after Brexit in some form.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:48
|
|
|
spectralent posted:It makes you the guys who can say "I told you so". Errghggh not sure about that or that it's entirely desirable even if it was true. I'm not sure "smugly in favor of the status quo" is an election winning formula at the moment.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:49
|
|
|
spectralent posted:It makes you the guys who can say "I told you so". So it gives you the right to be Pissflaps? I'd rather not.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:50
|
|
|
jabby posted:As far as today's vote goes, it is a rhetorical position. Whether Labour voted yes, no or abstain, whipped or free, affects nothing apart from how they are perceived by the country. And now because of this boneheaded move, that has a much better chance of working. Extreme0 posted:
I've said before but fascists are never happy with concessions. We've had governments that "listened to people's views" for years, and it can't be suggested that xenophobia and isolationism has gone down.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:51
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Errghggh not sure about that or that it's entirely desirable even if it was true. I'm not sure "smugly in favor of the status quo" is an election winning formula at the moment. You think Corbyn is an election winning formula. Your opinion isn't exactly valuable.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:51
|
|
|
spectralent posted:What? No. If there was a referendum on everything there would still be a worthwhile role in the opposition scrutinising, amending and publicising problems with the government's implementation. And are you saying labour isnt doing this with brexit? Because they have been doing exactly this ever since the referendum, you've just chosen to stick your fingers in your ears and go "LALALA REMAIN I CANT HEAR YOU LALALA" spectralent posted:I've said before but fascists are never happy with concessions. We've had governments that "listened to people's views" for years, and it can't be suggested that xenophobia and isolationism has gone down. Correct. And the solution to this problem is "Dont hold a referendum to score some cheap political points in your own party, you useless pigfucking spineless oval office" TheRat fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Feb 9, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:51
|
|
|
Pissflaps posted:That depends on how long the Brexit negotiations take and when the general election is. the general election will be in 2020, and May wants trigger A50 in March (?) which means that we'll be out of the EU by 2019
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:52
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Errghggh not sure about that or that it's entirely desirable even if it was true. I'm not sure "smugly in favor of the status quo" is an election winning formula at the moment. You think there is no advantage to being able to stand up after the sky's caved in on the economy and go "Man, we tried so hard to stop the other lot of guys doing this, but they just ploughed on through even though we tried to warn them! We wanted a load of simple, sensible changes that would've prevented all this, but we couldn't force it through and they wouldn't listen. With your support we'll get on with fixing their mistake"? The argument now is "Well, yes, we were totally with this on every step, and it has gone totally wrong, but, at the time we wanted your votes, so, we put your interests to one side".
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:53
|
|
|
TheRat posted:And are you saying labour isnt doing this with brexit? Because they have been doing exactly this ever since the referendum, you've just chosen to stick your fingers in your ears and go "LALALA REMAIN I CANT HEAR YOU LALALA" I don't consider overwhelmingly voting in favour of an un-amended bill to be doing any of that, no.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:54
|
|
|
spectralent posted:The argument now is "Well, yes, we were totally with this on every step This is pissflapsian levels of dishonesty.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:55
|
|
|
TheRat posted:Remain isnt a thing, and hasnt been a thing since June 23rd 2016. The only thing that needed representation was getting the best possible version of Leave, and even that was a symbolic fight because of the Tories having strict majority. For the last few months I've seen your posting and just been dismayed by it. Your continual head in the sand denial and unconditional support of Corbyns flaws was comical at first, but the desperation you've started to reach in trying to wave away anything negative has just gotten sad. I'm glad you think that the labour supporters who voted remain no longer matter. Lets see what happens when they don't turn up to the ballot box at the next election.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:55
|
|
|
ShaneMacGowansTeeth posted:the general election will be in 2020, and May wants trigger A50 in March (?) which means that we'll be out of the EU by 2019 That depends on how long the Brexit negotiations take.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:55
|
|
|
TheRat posted:This is pissflapsian levels of dishonesty. Amazing.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:56
|
|
|
TheRat posted:This is pissflapsian levels of dishonesty. Where is the voting record of them being against a bill that's going to tank the economy and hit the poorest hardest?
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:56
|
|
|
Pissflaps posted:That depends on how long the Brexit negotiations take. it's two years unless the rest of the EU allow an extension
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:56
|
|
|
spectralent posted:You think there is no advantage to being able to stand up after the sky's caved in on the economy and go "Man, we tried so hard to stop the other lot of guys doing this, but they just ploughed on through even though we tried to warn them! We wanted a load of simple, sensible changes that would've prevented all this, but we couldn't force it through and they wouldn't listen. With your support we'll get on with fixing their mistake"? I think a more appealing position might be "We wanted to give you what you voted for in a way that kept your standard of living as high as possible but the tories don't care and hosed it up for everyone, so vote for us and we'll try to mitiagate the damage." Rather than "you're all loving idiots and we told you so"
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:57
|
|
|
serious gaylord posted:Your continual head in the sand denial and unconditional support of Corbyns flaws I dont have unconditional support for Corbyn. His stance on nuclear energy, for one, is loving moronic.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:57
|
|
|
ShaneMacGowansTeeth posted:it's two years unless the rest of the EU allow an extension You're right. So it depends how long they take.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:58
|
|
|
Extreme0 posted:Miliband has nothing to do with what's happened now. Stop scapegoating someone who is now irrelevant for over two years. what's happening now is the direct result of Labour not having enough MPs to have an impact on policy, it's not immediately relevant, I'll admit, but it is the situation as it's been, and as it will be until the next election, so you're expecting Corbyn to stop article 50 with a power he does not have and if article 50 cannot be stopped, it should follow that the best move is to salvage whatever you can, and in that case, it means making concessions to the part of Labour's electorate that they absolutely need to hold on to if they want to get in power ever again
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:58
|
|
|
Prince John posted:I disagree with your political point, but just wanted to send you best wishes for Friday. I've been in a similar situation so can sort of relate. Thanks, I think there's lots of us in the same boat. There's a fall back position where we'll be able to offer very cheap freshly cooked meals - a pound for two courses kind of thing - but the kitchen isn't big enough to do that for large amounts.of people, and it's not the solution anyway. Hey-ho, there was me thinking a few years ago that corporate IT work was complicated.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 00:59
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:I think a more appealing position might be "We wanted to give you what you voted for in a way that kept your standard of living as high as possible but the tories don't care and hosed it up for everyone, so vote for us and we'll try to mitiagate the damage." Well, yes, I assumed you'd read the i-told-you-so argument as being more diplomatically phrased than going up to a load of starving homeless, dropping trou and sharting over them. Being against an un-amended bill would've let them make the former (or, either, honestly, but, see above) argument. They can't, now; they voted for it, and either capitulated what's going to have turned out to be a huge fight, or were complicit against the interests of people they say they care about.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 01:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 02:51 |
|
|
Pissflaps posted:You're right. So it depends how long they take. depends how vindictive the rest of the EU feels,
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2017 01:01
|
|