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Well that commit took balls. I probably won't be happy until malmutate is drastically changed, but I'm glad someone's taking a look at it.
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Feb 9, 2017 04:34
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Prism posted:Their tile doesn't have visible hands and are tucked in their cloak too closely to put the weapon icons on their sprite, but they can hold weapons, so they gave them a floating telekinesis hand thing to do that. They should just have weapons eerily floating nearby their bodies through no earthly mechanism.
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Feb 9, 2017 04:35
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So we're... not actually fixing Malmutate? Great. Man, the last time I saw something I really liked go downhill this quickly was when D&D released 5E.
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Feb 9, 2017 04:40
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SKULL.GIF posted:What would a satisfactory reform of Malmutate look like? Removal does not count as reform, by the way. All Malmutators get cantrip added to their spell list. Also, Malmutate has a higher chance to apply any random mutation, instead of 20%. Necqoxecs & Shining Eyes get removed from all summon lists. Neqoxecs get a second copy of Brain Feed to further dilute their spell list. OoFs get an aura that you can see before they can see you. Cacodemons bumped to T1. Players get x turns of 100% rMut after getting hit by Malmutate. Also double the number butterflies you can summon.
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Feb 9, 2017 04:42
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LogicNinja posted:So we're... not actually fixing Malmutate? Great. I would have thought the addition of Ignition would appease you, LogicNinja  Speleothing posted:All Malmutators get cantrip added to their spell list. This is essentially removal.
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Feb 9, 2017 04:46
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Seems like pretty reasonable changes to me. But then again I'm not a pro player.
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Feb 9, 2017 04:49
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SKULL.GIF posted:I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that people were bad players for being malmutated. I get malmutated all the time! Mistakes happen all the time, especially in a game with as many thousands of moves as a given Crawl playthrough has. SKULL.GIF posted:What would a satisfactory reform of Malmutate look like? Removal does not count as reform, by the way. Eg: A player gets hit by caco malmut twice, and has two malmutations at 500 power each. One mutation will be removed when they gather 500 mutpoints worth of XP. Before that, they get mutated by a neq which adds 1 mutation at 200 power, so now they have 3 muts/1200 power built up and will remove the next mutation at 400. If they were at 450/1000 XP credit earned when the neq mutated them they would drop to 50/800 power and the neq mutation would be negated. The specifics of power can depend on HD and malmut type, so a neq mutation would have less power than a cacodemon. Wretched stars would have decent power but a high of mutations, and thus a lower cost per mutation. Shining eyes are specialised so they could be given a power-boosted malmut ray. This way you can preserve all the different mutation effects and make existing temp mutations more impactful instead of demonspawn corruptor effects being irrelevant. You could also freely introduce more mutators to earlier parts of the game instead of having them all locked in extended. More smite-targeted malmut could also exist under this system. The effects of temp muts would need to be improved to make this more relevant (temp muts always act at level 3 or something, more bad tempmuts) but it would be much nicer than the current system where malmutate is a permanent malus/consumable check and malmutators are disproportionally threatening. Mnolegs fists and possibly Orbs of Fire could keep permanent malmutation, or be given obscenely high power malmuts to emphasis their threat as endgame mutators.
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Feb 9, 2017 04:58
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SKULL.GIF posted:I would have thought the addition of Ignition would appease you, LogicNinja And these days I can barely seem to make it that far. The game really is harder. The lack of Good Wands is definitely noticeable, for example, and not having Battlesphere just ruins conjurers as a good start. The removal of RMsl is especially glaring because the weaker your character, the more it helps. quote:This is essentially removal. Willy_wonka_no_stop_dont_come_back.gif LogicNinja fucked around with this message at 05:01 on Feb 9, 2017 |
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Feb 9, 2017 04:58
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SKULL.GIF posted:This is essentially removal. How about just: Malmutate inflicts temporary mutations, but has a chance to upgrade temporary mutations to permanent, based on how many temporary ones you possess? That way, 1-2 malmutates almost certainly won't ruin your character, but getting hit with a bunch still probably will.
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Feb 9, 2017 04:59
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Mal mutate with the idea of portal spawning in the abyss. They are temporary but you have to kill to get them to go away.
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Feb 9, 2017 05:02
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Goodpancakes posted:Mal mutate with the idea of portal spawning in the abyss. They are temporary but you have to kill to get them to go away. So wretched stars?
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Feb 9, 2017 05:05
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I don't know why you guys are suggesting this stuff. The suggestions have been floating around for years and the devs are clearly of the opinion malmut isn't a big deal and are making it more prominent and harder to ignore/negate with every release nowadays.
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Feb 9, 2017 05:05
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Honestly I think the biggest issue with malmutate is that shining eyes and neqs can show up with anything that can summon, so you can get blindsided anywhere rather than just "okay I'm in slime so I should look out for shining eyes," etc.
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Feb 9, 2017 05:09
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quote:Cure Mutation in effect becomes a tax paid for making positioning Oh my loving god. HELL GLOW EXISTS HELL GLOW EXISTS HELL GLOW EXISTS HELL GLOW EXISTS HELL GLOW EXISTS How many loving times do I have to explain this before something gets done about it? You cannot dodge Hell glow! It is pure RNG! If you don't have enough cancellation pots, you can't get rid of it! This change effectively means that if you get one of the crippling mutations from hell glow, you have to jump on the wild mutation train. And then if RNG continues to spite you, that mutation could get even worse rather than being removed. This change is horrible. I already get extremely pissed when hell gives me something like berserkitis. Now I can't even chug cure mut to get rid of that? I have to just pray the mutation potions make it better? Stupid.
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Feb 9, 2017 05:11
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Internet Kraken posted:Oh my loving god. Don't worry, every time you chug a new mutation potion you have a 39% chance to only end up with goodMuts (assuming you're starting with less than 3 badMuts!) Which is, uh, not really what I would call good odds.
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Feb 9, 2017 05:15
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Internet Kraken posted:Oh my loving god.  The devs don't really consider extended when making balance changes.This isn't me being sassy at the devs. Such a small number of players bother with extended that it's understandably a non-consideration for most things. Extended is an unbalanced, overly long, and super-samey mess anyway; truly fixing it would take a lot of work that could have gone towards a shitload of other things. (I still wouldn't mind hell effects being tweaked, since there's no middle ground between "pointless --more--" and "imminent doom". But that's the same problem that plagues all of extended.)
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Feb 9, 2017 05:20
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First up, I think extended is Mostly poo poo (formerly All poo poo), which I why I can't remember the last time I bothered with more than six runes (a ghoul, in January 2016. And the only other was a Centaur in 2014). That's a whole host of problems, not just glow and malmutate. I tentatively think this change will be an improvement for the 25-40% of the game I actually play as long as the weighting remains high enough my sanity isn't dependent on the floor god. As for the remaining 60%? Well I'll still hate it with moderation. So that skews my perspective.
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Feb 9, 2017 05:24
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I mean I agree that it's kinda fair to disregard extended for balance changes, especially early on, but also at the same time I honestly really, really doubt that it would be hard to remove glow from the list of hell effects
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Feb 9, 2017 05:25
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Second reminder that hell effects come from spell miscasts so yeah, it would not be trivial to remove glow. You would need an alternative system in place.
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Feb 9, 2017 05:37
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Or you could just replace the enchantments miscast lists with something different that doesn't have "add tons of glow" as a possible effect. Also hell is already special cased to not banish you if it rolls that miscast effect so no it can't be that hard. For some reason I thought only Cocy and Tar had the charms/hexes miscasts but apparently all four do. Great.
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Feb 9, 2017 05:52
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Folding cure mutation and mutation into a single "take a mulligan on your mutations" potion is a cool idea, but I wish they'd kept beneficial mutation separate because those are always fun to find unless they give you a beak.
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Feb 9, 2017 05:55
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Sage Grimm posted:Second reminder that hell effects come from spell miscasts so yeah, it would not be trivial to remove glow. You would need an alternative system in place. Is there any compelling reason glow needs to be a possible miscast effect? Hell, do miscasts even need to be in the game? Isn't wasting a turn and the MP punishment enough?
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Feb 9, 2017 05:59
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Haifisch posted:
Malmutate is almost entirely an extended thing though. The only enemy you are likely to encounter in a standard 3 rune game with malmutate are orbs of fire. cheetah7071 posted:Is there any compelling reason glow needs to be a possible miscast effect? Well, miscasts discourage you from spamming a spell with a relatively low success rate until it works. You're not gonna do that with combat spells but you could do it with buffs. Take necromutation as an example; its effects persist long after I cast it, so even if its only at something like 50% I could cast it outside of combat. The effects for drastic failure discourage you from doing this. Certain gods provide protection from those harsh effects to make it a viable strategy under them. However this has become less and less relevant as more buffs have been removed. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 06:13 on Feb 9, 2017 |
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Feb 9, 2017 06:02
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There's a slight incentive to do that with some summons, but not much because you can't take them down stairs. I could see myself repeatedly trying to cast a powerful summon at high failure rate before opening eg a runed door if miscasts didn't exist, for example.
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Feb 9, 2017 06:12
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code:
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Feb 9, 2017 09:43
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Araganzar posted:
Watch as Xom decides you have it too easy and banishes you.
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Feb 9, 2017 10:13
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In my experience Xom doing something exceptionally nice is usually followed up with something exceptionally cruel. Like giving you a wand of heal wounds and then spawning a hellion next to you.
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Feb 9, 2017 10:41
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Floodkiller posted:Mutation game reform is upon us! I think handling the mutation game this way sounds fun  I'd have to test it but one of the problems of the rMut era for example was that while it was cool to lock in a bunch of good mutations, the mutation game essentially ends and you stop changing. Now it's the opposite where it's in your best interest to stay mundane or mutated with mostly ineffectual mutations until you need to quaff cMut. With the new potion of mutation you can re-roll your mutation set when you need it (or when you want to) because only Jiyva or Zin can keep bad mutations out, but it's an ongoing "mini-game" for as long as malmutate exists.However SKULL.GIF posted:What would a satisfactory reform of Malmutate look like? Removal does not count as reform, by the way. Darox nailed it, I think it's necessary for current malmutate to be delegated to the rarest/toughest enemies (maybe include a tier-1 demon in extended) and have a different system for the rest: it can (and should be!) quite punishing when making mistakes but these mistakes should involve *more* the tactical choices you make over the course of a fight, not the strategic choices you make prior to edge-of-LOS encounters with malmutators that ideally protect you from instant zaps. Also hell glow really should go.. "Your body shudders with the release of blah blah.." "You feel weirdly uncertain"  But really, I'm happy to hear the mutation game is being looked at once more.
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Feb 9, 2017 10:44
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Maybe if glow caused temp muts instead of permanent ones? It still serves the purpose of discouraging casting of high-failure spells because the temp mut is likely to last through whatever fight you were casting that spell for.
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Feb 9, 2017 11:25
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Ferrinus posted:Folding cure mutation and mutation into a single "take a mulligan on your mutations" potion is a cool idea, but I wish they'd kept beneficial mutation separate because those are always fun to find unless they give you a beak.  BeneMut is one of the cool things, like acquirement. It needs to stay.
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Feb 9, 2017 13:16
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I'd restrict malmutate to uniques only. It's fair that a named "boss" monster can harm your character permanently, but I don't think some random chaff should be able to do so.
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Feb 9, 2017 13:53
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There's already little incentive to actually fight uniques, you're better of running away from most of them. If some of them got the ability to malmutate it would just reinforce that further.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:01
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Not... fight uniques? What madness is this?! I am here for glory and conquest, not running like some sniveling coward! Next you will tell me I should ignore player ghosts and that killing the Pan and Hell lords is foolish! My win rate has not been so good recently.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:05
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I also (stupidly) slam my face into every unique the first chance I get, but if some of them got the ability to semi-permanently mangle my character at will from a distance I'd probably learn to stay away.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:08
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Carcer posted:There's already little incentive to actually fight uniques, you're better of running away from most of them. If some of them got the ability to malmutate it would just reinforce that further. IDK about that, you should skip fights you cannot win but if you have the resources to power through an early unique they typically give you a substantial XP boost and are well worth it. In extended XP becomes less of an issue though, I'll agree there.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:39
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If I see a unique I chug all my buffs and rip and tear. Also, tons of fun turning into a tree and watching Makurke or whatever he's called try to work his mojo on you ineffectually. The cMut change is... interesting. Everyone has already said everything I wanted to say already, but I want to reaffirm that I wish benMut were still left as they are. I can go entire games without seeing one, it's not like they were everywhere. And as it stands, potions of cancellation are basically just hoarded before tackling hell and either guzzled immediately when you get irradiated with glow from the RNG or if you start to petrify when the game has dumped a bunch of fiends and hell sentinels around you.
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Feb 9, 2017 15:40
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I really like the mutation changes. 39% chance of getting a whole set of good muts sounds great. Don't get a nice set? Well, you'll likely have 16 more potions to try for a better set. This will also encourage eating the purple since it will be simpler to clear a bad set. edit: Being able to easily clear bad muts makes malmutate less awful. The rarity of Cure Mut made it dangerous to experiment in case you get malmutated. This just means you'll be rotating through different ones after Slime or periodically during extended. Thalamas fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Feb 9, 2017 |
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Feb 9, 2017 15:43
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My ideal mutation system reform would get rid of Malmutate and replace it with a terrifying temporary effect (like halving you MR irresistibly or something), because I have a chip on my shoulder about permanent damage done to characters in roguelikes that isn't self-inflicted by choice. Almost every roguelike that has a system like that feels terrible (even if the damage is meaningless in the long run), and I often have to grit my teeth and bear it if I enjoy the game otherwise. This is why I celebrated removing item destruction and old corrosion, even though new corrosion is obviously much more dangerous, and why I constantly rail against Malmutate. However, I'm going to be realistic and describe the situation below with the assumption that Malmutate must stay. In its current state (before the trunk change), the mutation system is frustrating to deal with, due to mutations being easy to get maliciously, but hard to get rid of. Due to this, the meta game for mutations was to never mutate yourself so that your limited stock of cMut would suffice towards erasing any bad muts that you could not deal with. Effectively, this erases the mutation system from existing at all and has failed as a mechanic, since the developer goal of mutations is to have a mechanic that changes the way you play the game when it affects the player and is not easy to alter. To fix this, mutation reform from the viewpoint of this design goal likely goes one of four ways: -make mutations more permanent by making them harder to remove, but harder to gain (either maliciously or self-inflicted) -make mutations less permanent but ubiquitous by keeping it easy to gain and hard to remove them entirely, but much easier to remove a specific mutation -make mutations entirely temporary (all kinds, not just Malmutate) to avoid permanent damage but make interesting situations -remove the mutation system Option one would probably see removing cMut, but giving fights against malmutating enemies more leniency (such as giving it a 3 turn wind-up or going temp->permanent). This would make any mutations gained an almost permanent part of your character that needs to be adapted to, with the exception of switching to a mutation clearing god. Option two is what has been put into practice with this patch, by making it so that you will always be mutated once you become mutated, but it is easier to shuffle around what you specifically have to deal with. It still leaves permanent positive mutations as a possibility, but now you have to weigh slightly more whether your old list is worth your new list. Option three gets rid of the frustration of permanently damaging your character by making it all transient, but also gets rid of good permanent mut lists. This is because the design goal of the mutation system currently is not "give the player a separate equipment system". Likely, positive mutations would become another buff consumable that temporarily gives you a couple random cool mutations for a short period of time. Option four is the nuclear option where the design goal isn't salvageable and no reform is fixing it, so it is easier to get rid of it. With the first three options, I would also hope to see a follow up that makes each individual mutations more meaningful so that it actually impacts play (likely also followed by shortening most of them to 1-2 levels instead of 3), instead of just very specific awful mutations. I'm sure I'm missing some potential alternative options for reform, but arguing from the direction of player strength/frustration isn't what gets the mechanic changed; it's looking at what the system is intended to do (which isn't free player upgrades that cannot be touched) and trying to find a solution that accomplishes it. If no acceptable solution can be found, cut it and try something else. As a side note, I also think Hell effects need revamping because petrification/glow is dumb as gently caress. Floodkiller fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Feb 9, 2017 |
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Feb 9, 2017 16:08
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Going to ask a question I been wondering for awhile now. Is there any specific reason that Tengu flight (before it becomes permanent at clvl 14) is not able to be turned off? It tends to annoy me that I can't stop it to refresh it's duration after battle or when faced with a big body of water. Hell, it don't even make sense a bird-person wouldn't know how to land. World Famous W fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Feb 9, 2017 |
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Feb 9, 2017 16:53
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Zore posted:Don't worry, every time you chug a new mutation potion you have a 39% chance to only end up with goodMuts (assuming you're starting with less than 3 badMuts!) Where are you getting that number?
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Feb 9, 2017 17:17
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