UKMT February 2017 - Welcome to Tiny Train World

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKMT February 2017 - Welcome to Tiny Train World

kingturnip: Apr 18, 2008

Paracaidas posted:

You're absolutely correct, a wide majority of the voters prefer Soft Brexit to Hard Brexit. I'd be willing to wager any sum you'd like, though, that a wide majority also favor Remain to Hard Brexit.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that a recent poll, posted in this thread, shows that people would prefer Hard Brexit to Remain.
I mean, I could be wrong, given that some people think that linking every single poll that crosses their Twitter feed is somehow a public service, but I recall something like that being posted.
Anyway, official media haven't really given Labour MPs much chance to explain themselves - thankfully, my MP sent out an email last week explaining her decision to vote to invoke Article 50:

Joan Ryan, MP posted:

On Wednesday 1st February I, along with the majority of my Labour Party Parliamentary colleagues and other MPs, voted to allow the Prime Minister to trigger Article 50 and begin the process of leaving the European Union.
The government�s European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill (which you can read by clicking here) passed its 2nd Reading (a debate on the general principles of the bill) in the House of Commons by 498 votes to 114 - a majority of 384.
I want to explain to you why I voted to trigger Article 50, what happens next and why Labour will fight throughout the negotiations for a deal that prioritises jobs, the economy, workers� rights and environmental protections.
I�m proud to have campaigned with so many Enfield North CLP members for the UK to remain a leading member of the EU. I think our country is stronger, safer and better off in Europe.
In our constituency, 50.8% of people who voted in the referendum wanted to remain and 49.2% voted to leave.
The Borough of Enfield was split roughly 55/45 in favour of remain.
However, the decision to remain or leave the EU was not made on a constituency or borough basis � this was a national referendum in which the entire electorate could have its say.
The country spoke and the majority of people voted for Brexit.
And, as a democrat, I believe we have to accept, respect and abide by the referendum result.
As Keir Starmer MP, Labour�s Shadow Brexit Secretary, said this week, �had the outcome been remain, we would have expected the result to have been honoured � and that cuts both ways.�
But triggering Article 50 is just the start of the process, not the end.
Over the next few weeks in Parliament, the government�s European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill will face further scrutiny before it can become law.
And, once official talks between the UK Government and the EU have started, there will be many opportunities available for Labour to campaign and argue for our approach to Brexit.
Labour will not give the government a blank cheque in the negotiation process � we will hold the Conservatives to account.
It was only due to the pressure applied by our party that the government finally published their plan for Brexit on Thursday 2nd February, in the form of what is known as a White Paper (which you can read by clicking here).
This concession by the Prime Minister to Labour�s demands is essential for proper scrutiny of the negotiations.
And Labour is seeking a number of changes to the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill which would ensure Parliament is able to hold the government to account throughout the Brexit process.
Our proposed amendments to the bill include getting the government to stick to a number of key principles, like protecting workers� rights and our environment and securing full, tariff free access to the EU�s Single Market on which so many of our jobs and the health of our economy depends.
We are, also, seeking a meaningful vote in Parliament on the final Brexit deal � to be held before the Government agrees the final deal with the EU.
Labour will continue to argue for a strong future relationship with the EU � one based on collaboration and cooperation.
Labour will vigorously oppose any threat to slash our public services, or to rip up employment rights and environmental protections.
And Labour will fight against a Conservative Brexit that puts jobs, the economy and living standards at risk.
I will keep you updated on the crucial negotiation process, in the weeks and months ahead

# ? Feb 9, 2017 08:02

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# ? May 10, 2024 10:57

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

Joan Ryan posted:

Labour will not give the government a blank cheque in the negotiation process � we will hold the Conservatives to account.

They did that last night, though. No matter how much they say they didn't, they did.

Basically,

# ? Feb 9, 2017 08:08

GEORGE W BUSHI: Jul 1, 2012

Paracaidas posted:

He could lay down the whip and let members vote however they'd like. It would lose the benefit(?) of a unified Labour front, but would allow Remain a few figurehead to rally behind as everything goes to poo poo. The cynic in me says he avoided it because a coup might actually work if a Remain Figurehead in his shadow cabinet gave it a shot after a year or so.

Don't you think Clive Lewis's decision to resign might allow him to cast himself in this role anyway? Speaking of which, I wonder which direction this thread's posters would swing in a Lewis/Corbyn leadership election. I'd definitely cast my vote for Lewis in that scenario.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 08:10

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

TinTower posted:

They did that last night, though. No matter how much they say they didn't, they did.

Basically,

Lib dems actually propping up the tories for five years = giving them a blank check.

Labour voting with a tory majority = literally immaterial, tories can write their own checks.

I really don't think you get to complain.

Baron Corbyn posted:

Don't you think Clive Lewis's decision to resign might allow him to cast himself in this role anyway? Speaking of which, I wonder which direction this thread's posters would swing in a Lewis/Corbyn leadership election. I'd definitely cast my vote for Lewis in that scenario.

Leaning towards Lewis. I do wish I had more experience with his conduct as an MP though.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 08:48

Prince John: Jun 20, 2006; Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

Paracaidas posted:

You're absolutely correct, a wide majority of the voters prefer Soft Brexit to Hard Brexit. I'd be willing to wager any sum you'd like, though, that a wide majority also favor Remain to Hard Brexit. Corbyn has sold the principles of his party out for the chance at converting the mythical Centrist Brexit into Labour voters. It's the epitome of the worst impulses of PLP but somehow it's okay this time because it's our guy.

A large percentage of remain voters feel that the outcome of the referendum should be respected because ~~fair play~~.

According to polls posted in here, hard brexit is preferred to remain.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 09:21

Sulla Faex: May 14, 2010; No man ever did me so much good, or enemy so much harm, but I repaid him with ENDLESS SHITPOSTING

All glory to the infallible pollsters

# ? Feb 9, 2017 09:21

Fans: Jun 27, 2013; A reptile dysfunction

Referendums are dangerous political tools and the Conservatives vague EU ref really hosed us all harder than any dead pig.

Corbyn wants Brexit to get going because right now the fantasy of "Britain Grate!" is completely unshiftable until Brexit actually happens and opposing a referendum is unthinkable for a major party.

It's a poo poo situation the Conservatives threw the country in to win 2015. Now Corbyn's going to throw us in the poo poo to try win 2020. Britain Grate!

# ? Feb 9, 2017 09:34

serious gaylord: Sep 16, 2007; what.

Fans posted:

Referendums are dangerous political tools and the Conservatives vague EU ref really hosed us all harder than any dead pig.

Corbyn wants Brexit to get going because right now the fantasy of "Britain Grate!" is completely unshiftable until Brexit actually happens and opposing a referendum is unthinkable for a major party.

It's a poo poo situation the Conservatives threw the country in to win 2015. Now Corbyn's going to throw us in the poo poo to try win 2020. Britain Grate!

You don't know what cheerleading is.

I had an e-mail back from my labour clp this morning telling me they don't have the authority to accept my resignation and will let me know who I have to contact. Either way the DD is cancelled, but I guess this might be how labour could inflate member numbers for a long time.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Feb 9, 2017 10:09

Jose: Jul 24, 2007; Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer

its cool that cameron hosed the country then quit and wandered off doodling to himself

# ? Feb 9, 2017 10:16

Sulla Faex: May 14, 2010; No man ever did me so much good, or enemy so much harm, but I repaid him with ENDLESS SHITPOSTING

Apparently if you join a rival party to Labour it'll speed up the process by getting you kicked out

# ? Feb 9, 2017 10:16

Cerv: Sep 14, 2004; This is a silly post with little news value.

ShaneMacGowansTeeth posted:

it's two years unless the rest of the EU allow an extension

no one seriously believes it'll all be done in two years. an extension is a given.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 10:27

Junkozeyne: Feb 13, 2012

An exstension requires the approval of all EU member states. It is anything but given. Remember the 2 years are not there for negotiating a new (trade) deal, it is for negotiating the exit deal.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 10:31

Dead Goon: Dec 13, 2002; No Obvious Flaws

serious gaylord posted:

You don't know what cheerleading is.

I had an e-mail back from my labour clp this morning telling me they don't have the authority to accept my resignation and will let me know who I have to contact. Either way the DD is cancelled, but I guess this might be how labour could inflate member numbers for a long time.

Why are you so important that you need to resign from the Labour Party?

Cancel your DD, cut your membership card up and post pictures of it on social media like all the other whiny little babies have done in the past.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 10:33

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

Cerv posted:

no one seriously believes it'll all be done in two years. an extension is a given.

I don't believe there are any mechanisms for extension, are there?

# ? Feb 9, 2017 10:33

Jippa: Feb 13, 2009

Fans posted:

Referendums are dangerous political tools and the Conservatives vague EU ref really hosed us all harder than any dead pig.

I remember posting a guardian article by david mitchell saying that "isn't this the reason we have elected politicians". It's so clear that loads of people didn't really understand what they were voting for over brexit. Most people find politics incredibly dull and boring.

Cameron really is a piece of poo poo, I hope history never forgets what he did to this country.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 10:38

jabby: Oct 27, 2010

OwlFancier posted:

Leaning towards Lewis. I do wish I had more experience with his conduct as an MP though.

Lewis seems to share a lot of socialist principles, I'm just not sure I trust him not to hand the party back to Progress and the labour right in exchange for a good looking shadow cabinet and a boost in the media. If he actually challenges Corbyn he'd be alienating the very few left wing MPs labour have, and I don't have faith that he would stick to principles when he could be hailed as the person who made Labour 'electable' again by locking the membership and the left out of power forever.

Personally I'll be voting for Corbyn until a successor comes along he feels he can step down for. I'm not going to vote for a challenger just because they say the correct left wing things (see: Owen Smith).

# ? Feb 9, 2017 10:41

Cerv: Sep 14, 2004; This is a silly post with little news value.

Junkozeyne posted:

An exstension requires the approval of all EU member states. It is anything but given. Remember the 2 years are not there for negotiating a new (trade) deal, it is for negotiating the exit deal.

it's not in the interests of the EU or the remaining member states for the UK to bomb out without an exit deal being agreed.

Darth Walrus posted:

I don't believe there are any mechanisms for extension, are there?

3.The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

Cerv fucked around with this message at 10:54 on Feb 9, 2017

# ? Feb 9, 2017 10:51

kustomkarkommando: Oct 22, 2012

Cerv posted:

it's not in the interests of the EU or the remaining member states for the UK to bomb out without an exit deal being agreed.

3.The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

The EU sure as hell don't want the UK still in play with their vote when it comes time to draft the next 6 year mutual financial framework so the maximum an extension would probably be is a year

kustomkarkommando fucked around with this message at 10:58 on Feb 9, 2017

# ? Feb 9, 2017 10:55

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

I can't wait for one of the states to consistently block out of spite/their own nationalism.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 10:57

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

Yeah, that's the big catch here, unanimity. We don't have enough friends left on the mainland to rely on that.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 11:06

SixFigureSandwich: Oct 30, 2004; Exciting Lemon

Yeah, the EU doesn't want a messy exit but they also don't want to drag this out for years longer. They may early on agree to a transition period with clearly defined rights and responsibilities though.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 11:12

Gravitas Shortfall: Jul 17, 2007; Utility is seven-eighths Proximity.

Just assume everything is going to be poo poo, the NHS will be sold, and the country will get worse and worse until it goes full fash because honestly it's the most likely cause of action.

Me, I'm already assuming I'm going to have to move to Ireland. Hopefully I won't get killed when the troubles kick off again.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 11:13

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

https://twitter.com/JamieMcConkey/status/829606870251929601

# ? Feb 9, 2017 11:19

Fangz: Jul 5, 2007; Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!

Cerv posted:

it's not in the interests of the EU or the remaining member states for the UK to bomb out without an exit deal being agreed.

3.The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

Not a single EU state benefits from the UK being screwed over? Not a single leader is gonna go, hmm, if the UK isn't a factor, we'll get X more jobs? You really think that?

# ? Feb 9, 2017 11:30

Carborundum: Feb 21, 2013

Gravitas Shortfall posted:

Me, I'm already assuming I'm going to have to move to Ireland. Hopefully I won't get killed when the troubles kick off again.

Ireland, sure to be fine, alone on the periphery of Europe with almost 1 in 5 of its citizens emigrating, massively in debt, in the midst of Brussels mandated Austerity, selling off its public services, introducing regressive taxation, with one of its main trading partners hosed beyond belief.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 11:31

Laradus: Feb 16, 2011

As it's sort of valid to the discussion (I wasn't going to post it otherwise), there was a YouGov poll yesterday from a sample of Britain and other countries with their opinions on who needs the other most - article and data here;

Most Brits think the EU needs the UK at least as much as the UK needs the EU.

And the two graphs for quick reference (hopefully they work);

E: Fixed graphs - thank you HJB.

Laradus fucked around with this message at 12:09 on Feb 9, 2017

# ? Feb 9, 2017 11:35

WeAreTheRomans: Feb 23, 2010; by R. Guyovich

Carborundum posted:

Ireland, sure to be fine, alone on the periphery of Europe with almost 1 in 5 of its citizens emigrating, massively in debt, in the midst of Brussels mandated Austerity, selling off its public services, introducing regressive taxation, with one of its main trading partners hosed beyond belief.

We'll be alright, I might save this post and ask you about it again in 5 years

e: please stay and wallow in your own mess, we have to pursue a policy of Ireland First

WeAreTheRomans fucked around with this message at 11:38 on Feb 9, 2017

# ? Feb 9, 2017 11:35

MikeCrotch: Nov 5, 2011; I AM UNJUSTIFIABLY PROUD OF MY SPAGHETTI BOLOGNESE RECIPE

YES, IT IS AN INCREDIBLY SIMPLE DISH

NO, IT IS NOT NORMAL TO USE A PEPPERAMI INSTEAD OF MINCED MEAT

YES, THERE IS TOO MUCH SALT IN MY RECIPE

NO, I WON'T STOP SHARING IT

more like BOLLOCKnese

People saying "i'm going to move to Ireland if the UK leaves the EU!" baffles me in the same way that "Labour didn't try to block Article 50 so i'm going to vote Lib Dem!" does.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 11:36

kustomkarkommando: Oct 22, 2012

WeAreTheRomans posted:

We'll be alright, I might save this post and ask you about it again in 5 years

You say that before all the Lib Dems move to Dublin and start voting for FG and deliver full liberalism now

# ? Feb 9, 2017 11:39

WeAreTheRomans: Feb 23, 2010; by R. Guyovich

kustomkarkommando posted:

You say that before all the Lib Dems move to Dublin and start voting for FG and deliver full liberalism now

it's true I might have underestimated the UK's ability to ruin other countries, specially given historical precedent

# ? Feb 9, 2017 11:44

Gravitas Shortfall: Jul 17, 2007; Utility is seven-eighths Proximity.

MikeCrotch posted:

People saying "i'm going to move to Ireland if the UK leaves the EU!" baffles me in the same way that "Labour didn't try to block Article 50 so i'm going to vote Lib Dem!" does.

I'm an EU citizen who only speaks English, my options are somewhat limited.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 11:54

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

So, of the top ten Remain constituencies, four of their MPs voted for Brexit: Umunna (Streatham, #1), Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington, #3), Corbyn (Islington North, #4), and Hoey (Vauxhall, #10).

Of the top hundred Leave constituencies, only one voted to remain: Creagh (Wakfield, #100).

# ? Feb 9, 2017 11:55

Fangz: Jul 5, 2007; Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!

https://twitter.com/TelegraphNews/status/829621395764023296

# ? Feb 9, 2017 11:56

kustomkarkommando: Oct 22, 2012

WeAreTheRomans posted:

it's true I might have underestimated the UK's ability to ruin other countries, specially given historical precedent

Too be fair though its not like Irish people are particularly good at the old voting lark.

coughcoughFFresurgancecough

# ? Feb 9, 2017 12:01

Praseodymi: Aug 26, 2010

Fangz posted:

https://twitter.com/TelegraphNews/status/829621395764023296

Can't wait to see him suffer the consequences for attempted sexual assault ahahahahaha

# ? Feb 9, 2017 12:03

HJB: Feb 16, 2011; I can't get enough of are Dan

Laradus posted:

As it's sort of valid to the discussion (I wasn't going to post it otherwise), there was a YouGov poll yesterday from a sample of Britain and other countries with their opinions on who needs the other most - article and data here;

Most Brits think the EU needs the UK at least as much as the UK needs the EU.

And the two graphs for quick reference (hopefully they work);

I've fixed your graphs for you. Thing is, if the EU happens to dissolve within a generation or so of us leaving, then technically "we" (and Norway) are right.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 12:05

hakimashou: Jul 15, 2002; Upset Trowel

ShaneMacGowansTeeth posted:

https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/829442621340803083

God I love that woman.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 12:07

Laradus: Feb 16, 2011

Thank you - I knew i'd hosed it up but didn't want to imageleech.

Fixed it in the original as well.

PS - I think telling David Davis to gently caress off is always a Correct response, kiss or not.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 12:09

hakimashou: Jul 15, 2002; Upset Trowel

Aside from forcing all the MPs to vote for his precious brexit and tanking their standing in the polls, what has Great Helmsman Corbyn managed to achieve in his time taking up space at the top of the Labour Party?

# ? Feb 9, 2017 12:15

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# ? May 10, 2024 10:57

Zalakwe: Jun 4, 2007; Likes Cake, Hates Hamsters

MikeCrotch posted:

People saying "i'm going to move to Ireland if the UK leaves the EU!" baffles me in the same way that "Labour didn't try to block Article 50 so i'm going to vote Lib Dem!" does.

They didn't not try to block it. They threw the weight of their entire party machine (broken down Fiesta though it is) behind it, unbolting the last flimsy gate to the hardest possible brexit. People are considering voting for someone else as that doesn't reflect their views.

Our system seems to be hosed. Parties are completely divorced from any belief or philosophy, or certainly wish to avoid the electoral consequences of having one. We probably need some new ones with some new ideas.

Zalakwe fucked around with this message at 12:25 on Feb 9, 2017

# ? Feb 9, 2017 12:16

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