Crawl .20: Home of the Frog Dog

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taqueso: Mar 8, 2004

New mutation potions are fun, but they sure make a lot of stuff happen for each potion.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 17:20

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# ? May 14, 2024 00:51

Thug Lessons: Dec 14, 2006; I lust in my heart for as many dead refugees as possible.

Haifisch posted:

An improvement over the normal VM book, not that that's hard.

We still need a Pizza school so we can get the L9 Pizza Tornadostorm, though.

The VM book is great and if I'm forced to play a mage it's definitely going to be a VM because at least their spells are somewhat fun

# ? Feb 9, 2017 17:26

PleasingFungus: Oct 10, 2012; idiot asshole bitch who should fuck off

Sage Grimm posted:

Second reminder that hell effects come from spell miscasts so yeah, it would not be trivial to remove glow. You would need an alternative system in place.

making hell effects not use miscasts at all is a long-term goal of mine, since the set of appropriate effects for "you're in hell" and "you spectacularly miscast a spell" are pretty different. probably not happening soon, though, unless i have a spectacular burst of inspiration. until then, it's all band-aids, like the hell paralysation ban someone mentioned earlier...

# ? Feb 9, 2017 17:32

Thug Lessons: Dec 14, 2006; I lust in my heart for as many dead refugees as possible.

Anyway, was weapon acquirement changed at some point to no longer take skill into account? Because it used to be a semi-reliable way to get a good weapon but in trunk it seems to only give me weapons from different skills. Am I just getting unlucky?

# ? Feb 9, 2017 17:32

PleasingFungus: Oct 10, 2012; idiot asshole bitch who should fuck off

tangential: kikubaaqudgha providing protection against mummy death curses & many hell effects, because they're implemented as necromancy miscasts, is one of the most inside baseball things i can imagine. like, it's nice that the protection is somewhat broader than just helping with your own spells, but...

Thug Lessons posted:

Anyway, was weapon acquirement changed at some point to no longer take skill into account? Because it used to be a semi-reliable way to get a good weapon but in trunk it seems to only give me weapons from different skills. Am I just getting unlucky?

c l u s t e r i n g i l you get the idea, it should still be based on weapon skill. will run a few checks real fast to make sure nothing's broken, but sounds like just bad luck.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 17:34

Zore: Sep 21, 2010; willfully illiterate, aggressively miserable sourpuss whose sole raison d�etre is to put other people down for liking the wrong things

Thug Lessons posted:

Where are you getting that number?

Its part of the commit. Look for the link a few pages back.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 17:37

Thug Lessons: Dec 14, 2006; I lust in my heart for as many dead refugees as possible.

PleasingFungus posted:

c l u s t e r i n g i l you get the idea, it should still be based on weapon skill. will run a few checks real fast to make sure nothing's broken, but sounds like just bad luck.

I went ahead and checked myself, and while skill is taken into account the numbers seem somewhat worse than in previous versions. Compare the relevant portions of item generation (ctrl-i in the wizmode menu) from 16.2 to the current trunk.

16.2:

code:

      mace:   2.49
            flail:   0.90
      morningstar:   7.49
       dire flail:  18.09
      eveningstar:   5.86
       great mace:  32.28
       demon whip:   3.02

trunk:

code:

       mace:   0.72
            flail:   5.86
      morningstar:  12.35
       dire flail:  13.53
      eveningstar:   9.33
       great mace:  25.15
     demon whip:   5.39

This is with 15 skill over 10,000 iterations. You used to have about a 50% chance of getting a 2-hander even with zero item generation, now it's down to <40%.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 17:58

World Famous W: May 25, 2007; BAAAAAAAAAAAA

Found a bug. Using Poisonous Vapours on a neutral creature will not cause them to become aggressive.

Character Dump

code:

 You feel a surge of power!
 Poisonous vapours surround the freed slave!
 * * * LOW MAGIC WARNING * * *
 The freed slave is engulfed in poison gas.
_The freed slave is poisoned.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 18:05

Araganzar: May 24, 2003; Needs more cowbell!; Fun Shoe

That bug has been around for a while, doesn't get reported because no one wants to admit they are an evil bastard who would poison a freed slave...

# ? Feb 9, 2017 20:37

FulsomFrank: Sep 11, 2005; Hard on for love

Do slaying bonuses affect the amount of HP vampirism leeches?

# ? Feb 9, 2017 20:58

Sage Grimm: Feb 18, 2013; Let's go explorin' little dude!

Considering the formula for how much HP you get returned to you is 1d(damage), yes.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 21:19

Akett: Aug 6, 2012

So blinking can put you into flaming clouds. That's rather dickish. Also, if there's one thing I'm thankful for with regards to the removal of RMsl as a spell it's that I have the spell levels free earlier to learn blink on wizards without delaying getting meph and conj flame.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 21:49

Johnny Joestar: Oct 21, 2010; Don't shoot him?

...
...

i think there have been plenty of good ideas to change malmutate for the better over time, but since none of them have been put into place either the devs are deliberately ignoring it all or they honest to god think that it's perfectly fine as-is, so i'm not really confident.

in any case, i've been enjoying caves of qud more than other roguelikes recently because at least the mutations in that are generally pretty positive.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 22:22

PleasingFungus: Oct 10, 2012; idiot asshole bitch who should fuck off

the qud mutation system has almost no similarity to crawl's, beyond the name.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 23:45

Johnny Joestar: Oct 21, 2010; Don't shoot him?

...
...

PleasingFungus posted:

the qud mutation system has almost no similarity to crawl's, beyond the name.

yes, the qud mutation system is good and fun, unlike crawl's

# ? Feb 9, 2017 23:48

World Famous W: May 25, 2007; BAAAAAAAAAAAA

Araganzar posted:

That bug has been around for a while, doesn't get reported because no one wants to admit they are an evil bastard who would poison a freed slave...

Well I wouldn't if they would act like pacified creatures and make for the exit instead of wandering around taking my EXP. Kirke's crew suffers the same fate.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 00:04

Whaleporn: May 6, 2007; This is me on my bike pretty cool huh?

Some words on malmute and current mutations: what about malmute and mutation potions giving you an effect that generates good and bad mutations on exp gain and eats them as you evolve?
It would be Sort of like a slower juvia or xom if your mildly mutagenic, with highly entropic making you spit out mutations faster or more likely to get mutations with both powerful benefits and drawbacks.

Now, as it stands, most bad mutations are just flat out bad. You have no reason to want or keep blurry vision, and teleport is potentially very dangerous, and uh, I guess someone might not want to
get wands powered by magic. Possibly. But things like teleport and berserkitis are too dangerous for most characters to hold on to, and shouting can doom a character who is trying to run hide and heal.
Usually you get one of your 'bad mutations' and you spend time trying to potion it away. Right now the system is almost always a character who has mutations that they want to get rid of or ones they want
left alone.

Allowing players to control the game somewhat is important, but making having a 'bad hand' or 'dangerous' mutations something that isn't either on the person forever or totally vestigial to play or
removed instantly is frustrating the the player and the devs since you'll barely see people actually get crippled by them. Make some of them 'bad with benefits' like blurry vision perhaps making you
invisible for a short period after reading a scroll. You have some vulnerability and there are times when you want to blink RIGHT NOW, but getting a few turns where your enemies are confused I
think is more interesting. The same with positive mutations: some of the minor ones being just good or just bad is fine (stat malus isn't interesting) but perhaps have it so that the same sort of playstyle
you see that makes demon spawn popular in that being mutated gives you some very strong abilities with big drawbacks: perhaps berserkitis triggering a caster trance where you can only move or use buffed magic.

perhaps have items or potions that freeze mutation cycling for a little while or a temporary cure mutation potion that suppresses the negative mutations in the short term, depending on how bad even good mutations are (maybe super scales that makes you ponderous, or lycanthropy that forces you to transform into a fairly powerful form that can move quickly and strike hard but is more vulnerable the most heavily equipped adventurers, with supression letting you haul butt with scales or control your transformations). Having the mutation system work like this also gives you a clear redemption to a removed but very beloved race: Sludge elves. Have them passively mutating all the time and give them racial suppression with a permanent mp cost. BAM. Instant fun race. Careful players will try to use items that stabilize and reduce mutations (just as they often do now) or lock themself into super good+bad mutations they can live with as they do now. Casual players will have games where they attempt to malmute themselves as much as possible to end up with something stumbling around the dungeon half mad but extremely dangerous.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 00:39

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

Whaleporn posted:

Make some of them 'bad with benefits' like blurry vision perhaps making you invisible for a short period after reading a scroll.

Double-edged mutations can indeed by interesting. I'll try to collect ideas.

However, the real question, in my opinion is: does mutation X affect how you play? From this point of view, strictly good mutations are actually worse than strictly bad mutations. I've seen Lemuel (the guy with the many vaults) play Zot:5 with berserkitis, and it was very interesting and different. (He won.) Having yet another AC+2 or resistance on the A-screen matters less.

I realise there's a big divide about what's "fun". To me, it's about decisions (rather than plain character power, I guess?). I hope that the current changes to the mutating potions makes for more interesting decisions, and also more interesting mutation sets. We'll have to see.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 01:18

Internet Kraken: Apr 24, 2010; slightly amused

Playing around something like berserkitis can be interesting but its still a case where the player can be victimized by really bad RNG. I've had to play around bad mutations a lot due to my love of the purple. It can be fun, but it can also be really frustrating, but at least when it comes from my own actions I have no one but myself to blame. Getting a terrible mutation from something completely out of my control is not fun.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 01:21

Fitzy Fitz: May 14, 2005

Body slot mutations are double-edged, but they've always been classified as beneficial.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 01:23

Social Studies 3rd Period: Oct 31, 2012; THUNDERDOME LOSER

dpeg posted:

Double-edged mutations can indeed by interesting. I'll try to collect ideas.

However, the real question, in my opinion is: does mutation X affect how you play? From this point of view, strictly good mutations are actually worse than strictly bad mutations. I've seen Lemuel (the guy with the many vaults) play Zot:5 with berserkitis, and it was very interesting and different. (He won.) Having yet another AC+2 or resistance on the A-screen matters less.

I realise there's a big divide about what's "fun". To me, it's about decisions (rather than plain character power, I guess?). I hope that the current changes to the mutating potions makes for more interesting decisions, and also more interesting mutation sets. We'll have to see.

Can I get your honest thought re: teleportitis?

Like, I can more or less work around a lot/most other bad muts. But teleportitis at least feels like a gently caress you, especially if it's in a 'poo poo, what was I supposed to do there?' situation. (And I hate saying 'there was nothing I could have done!!')

Honestly, personally, I just hate Teleportitis, I think. :v:

# ? Feb 10, 2017 01:34

World Famous W: May 25, 2007; BAAAAAAAAAAAA

Social Studies 3rd Period posted:

Can I get your honest thought re: teleportitis?

Like, I can more or less work around a lot/most other bad muts. But teleportitis at least feels like a gently caress you, especially if it's in a 'poo poo, what was I supposed to do there?' situation. (And I hate saying 'there was nothing I could have done!!')

Honestly, personally, I just hate Teleportitis, I think.

Yeah, Teleportitis is the only bad mutation I would say lead to an unavoidable death in Zot 5. I kept trying to escape up so I could rest and it just kept pulling me back into the lungs. I burned pretty much all the consumables I had left just trying to stay alive waiting for other teleports or blinks and runs to go off just to get pulled right back in about the time I reached the stairs.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 01:39

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

Social Studies 3rd Period posted:

Can I get your honest thought re: teleportitis?

Like, I can more or less work around a lot/most other bad muts. But teleportitis at least feels like a gently caress you, especially if it's in a 'poo poo, what was I supposed to do there?' situation. (And I hate saying 'there was nothing I could have done!!')

Honestly, personally, I just hate Teleportitis, I think.

First, teleportitis has an annoying interface price because whenever it kicks in, you have to re-focus. (This is also true for scrolls of teleportation, but there it's less bad, because you initiated them.) I don't mind so much the danger (see below), but I really dread having to play slower because of this. At least, the recentish change to teleportitis (only carry out the teleportation if you land next to monsters) has improved the interface a little bit.

About the danger: yes, teleportitis is hell on branch ends. I am probably less annoyed than you, but I care little about players deaths (including my own). In other places, I found it to be more annoying than harmful.

But anyway, an actual idea. The core concept (you suddenly get thrown into a dangerous situation) is something I like. After all, I also suggested to import shafts from Nethack

I once proposed to make the mutation slightly less harsh by announcing the teleport (as if you read a scroll). It is not clear how interesting this would be, because in most cases it'll be obvious whether you want to read a scroll to cancel it. But that way you have a tax on a very limited consumable. Before axing the mutation, I'd like to try that out. By the way, this would also somewhat address the interface bit.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 01:59

Panic! at Nabisco: Jun 6, 2007; it seemed like a good idea at the time

I actually really like shafts, even if in practice you only fall into them ultra-early and end up with a D:2 character on D:4.

Since we have a couple devs in here, I'd like to ask: why were transmuters reworked? I'm not angry or anything, I'm just curious, because they're very different from how they once were. If the answer is that status effect clouds were way too powerful (and they were), now that clouds work differently re: LoS, is there any chance we could see them coming back? I really liked the idea of distilling status potions from corpses and flinging them at enemies as my main offense, and Venom Mage as it is is a...poor substitute.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 02:32

World Famous W: May 25, 2007; BAAAAAAAAAAAA

As someone who constantly whines and complains about how pointless Poison magic is to level, I actually really like the new Poisonous Vapours spell. Smite targeted guaranteed poison is insanely good early game and just for the cost of two Stings.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 02:36

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

Panic! at Nabisco posted:

Since we have a couple devs in here, I'd like to ask: why were transmuters reworked? I'm not angry or anything, I'm just curious, because they're very different from how they once were. If the answer is that status effect clouds were way too powerful (and they were), now that clouds work differently re: LoS, is there any chance we could see them coming back? I really liked the idea of distilling status potions from corpses and flinging them at enemies as my main offense.

The combo of Fulsome Distillation + Evaporate was really cool. Unfortunately, it was also broken: you could get Mephitic Cloud equivalents for much cheaper. (And MC is a great spell by itself.) It would also be broken in 0.19.

In the end, having unlimited, xp-cheap bombs is always problematic. I think the effect could be saved, but a god would work much better than spells. This wouldn't help your old-school Transmuters, of course, who were defined by having FD+E available very early.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 03:01

Panic! at Nabisco: Jun 6, 2007; it seemed like a good idea at the time

I wouldn't mind at all if it were a higher level effect, or a god thing; it was very much playstyle-defining, so I could totally go for either of those. "How I play prior to temple" isn't a tremendously big issue for me anymore. Modern transmuters would work super well with it as a god effect, actually. Thanks for the response, by the way!

e: Man I am actually very into it as a god effect, a god of alchemy with some various effects on potions and a cheap invocation that let you turn them into bombs. Maybe potion reversal.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 03:10

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

Panic! at Nabisco posted:

I wouldn't mind at all if it were a higher level effect, or a god thing; it was very much playstyle-defining, so I could totally go for either of those. "How I play prior to temple" isn't a tremendously big issue for me anymore. Modern transmuters would work super well with it as a god effect, actually. Thanks for the response, by the way!

e: Man I am actually very into it as a god effect, a god of alchemy with some various effects on potions and a cheap invocation that let you turn them into bombs. Maybe potion reversal.

Hey, glad you like the idea. Hurry up with a cool god concept, the penultimate letter is about to be taken by the council god (I very much hope the god goes into 0.20), so there's only P left. You may not even have to worry about a name

# ? Feb 10, 2017 03:23

fool of sound: Oct 10, 2012

dpeg posted:

Hey, glad you like the idea. Hurry up with a cool god concept, the penultimate letter is about to be taken by the council god (I very much hope the god goes into 0.20), so there's only P left. You may not even have to worry about a name

Gimme back Pakellas

# ? Feb 10, 2017 03:33

Internet Kraken: Apr 24, 2010; slightly amused

Honestly now that the yellow wands are gone would Pakellas even be causing that much of a balancing issue?

# ? Feb 10, 2017 03:47

LazyMaybe: Aug 18, 2013; oouagh

"effectively infinite wand charges" is a really stupid god design when the whole point of wands is that they are a limited resource

# ? Feb 10, 2017 03:49

Thug Lessons: Dec 14, 2006; I lust in my heart for as many dead refugees as possible.

IronicDongz posted:

"effectively infinite wand charges" is a really stupid god design when the whole point of wands is that they are a limited resource

There are many, many gods that grant the ability to go around limited resource caps. Trog and Oka for unlimited weapon acquirement, Ely for unlimited healing, and Sif for unlimited mana and spell books, to name a few. There's nothing stupid about it conceptually, at least not any more than those gods are stupid.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 03:58

lizardhunt: Feb 7, 2010; agreed ->

Internet Kraken posted:

Honestly now that the yellow wands are gone would Pakellas even be causing that much of a balancing issue?

# ? Feb 10, 2017 03:59

dpeg: Jul 18, 2008; As far as I see it, you should never go to SA to look out for useful feedback or even interesting ideas; I certainly don't

Thug Lessons posted:

There are many, many gods that grant the ability to go around limited resource caps. Trog and Oka for unlimited weapon acquirement, Ely for unlimited healing, and Sif for unlimited mana and spell books, to name a few. There's nothing stupid about it conceptually, at least not any more than those gods are stupid.

The main problems, as I understood them (I was involved with neither creation nor removal of the god):

(1) The god's focus was extremely narrow: it boils down to a single skill. It is true that Crawl has other narrow gods (Trog, Vehumet) but they don't come close to Pakellas.

(2) The magic potions. From what I understood, that was just broken.

Now, (2) could easily be dealt with. The god got kicked because nobody had a compelling concept for (1), and that sounds like it'd be a full-fledged redesign anyway. There have been god proposals for "god of rangers", "god of poison magic" and so on all the time. These are not good: ideally, a god is skew to playing styles, so that it does something for a bunch of different characters, instead of being a power boost for one type of build. (Yes, I know that Trog is precisely that. Trog is cool. I like Trog.)

Short answer: yes, removal of the yellow wands makes Pakellas less broken but does nothing about the narrow scope.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 04:09

fool of sound: Oct 10, 2012

dpeg posted:

The main problems, as I understood them (I was involved with neither creation nor removal of the god):

(1) The god's focus was extremely narrow: it boils down to a single skill. It is true that Crawl has other narrow gods (Trog, Vehumet) but they don't come close to Pakellas.

(2) The magic potions. From what I understood, that was just broken.

Now, (2) could easily be dealt with. The god got kicked because nobody had a compelling concept for (1), and that sounds like it'd be a full-fledged redesign anyway. There have been god proposals for "god of rangers", "god of poison magic" and so on all the time. These are not good: ideally, a god is skew to playing styles, so that it does something for a bunch of different characters, instead of being a power boost for one type of build. (Yes, I know that Trog is precisely that. Trog is cool. I like Trog.)

Short answer: yes, removal of the yellow wands makes Pakellas less broken but does nothing about the narrow scope.

Maybe give him both the artifice and alchemy focuses? Potions are magic items too!

# ? Feb 10, 2017 04:11

Thug Lessons: Dec 14, 2006; I lust in my heart for as many dead refugees as possible.

dpeg posted:

The main problems, as I understood them (I was involved with neither creation nor removal of the god):

(1) The god's focus was extremely narrow: it boils down to a single skill. It is true that Crawl has other narrow gods (Trog, Vehumet) but they don't come close to Pakellas.

(2) The magic potions. From what I understood, that was just broken.

Now, (2) could easily be dealt with. The god got kicked because nobody had a compelling concept for (1), and that sounds like it'd be a full-fledged redesign anyway. There have been god proposals for "god of rangers", "god of poison magic" and so on all the time. These are not good: ideally, a god is skew to playing styles, so that it does something for a bunch of different characters, instead of being a power boost for one type of build. (Yes, I know that Trog is precisely that. Trog is cool. I like Trog.)

Short answer: yes, removal of the yellow wands makes Pakellas less broken but does nothing about the narrow scope.

You also have a god that has a scope that's similarly narrow on the same single skill, and is also actually a lot narrower because she focuses on a single item within that skill.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 04:14

Internet Kraken: Apr 24, 2010; slightly amused

dpeg posted:

The main problems, as I understood them (I was involved with neither creation nor removal of the god):

(1) The god's focus was extremely narrow: it boils down to a single skill. It is true that Crawl has other narrow gods (Trog, Vehumet) but they don't come close to Pakellas.

What? This is utterly bizarre. I'd argue plenty of the gods have a scope just as narrow as Pakellas. I mean, any god that scales off invocations only revolves around one skill. And like, how is Kiku anything more than the god of necromancy?

# ? Feb 10, 2017 04:20

Unimpressed: Feb 13, 2013

Random question to PF or other devs. Has the player survey completed? Are you going to publish the data?

# ? Feb 10, 2017 04:25

someone awful.: Sep 7, 2007

also Nemelex, though who even plays Nemelex anymore honestly.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 04:26

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# ? May 14, 2024 00:51

Internet Kraken: Apr 24, 2010; slightly amused

someone awful. posted:

also Nemelex, though who even plays Nemelex anymore honestly.

I keep meaning to try Nemelex after the switch to invocations but I never even remember she exists. Plus like, what is she gonna give my character that I can't get from another god? I'm honestly not sure.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 04:28

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