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RedMagus posted:Two questions from the veterans, just because I want to make sure: There sure is! Beatrice murdered the entire family, with magic.
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Feb 10, 2017 03:53
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There will be enough information to solve the murders by the end of this episode. The Epitaph... I'm honestly not sure. That one's a lot more vague.
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Feb 10, 2017 03:55
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Oh the murders have been solvable for a loooong time, this is aaall just extra information for dummies 
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Feb 10, 2017 04:34
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The epitah is harder because unlike the characters we don't have a way to check to see if we got it right.
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Feb 10, 2017 07:29
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ProfessorProf posted:There will be enough information to solve the murders by the end of this episode. The Epitaph... I'm honestly not sure. That one's a lot more vague. Noooo! Keep fighting for your life, DR LOU!
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Feb 10, 2017 07:52
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Having just read through all the new posts. Errrrr... I really hope that it doesn't get that grim. So I'm choosing to broadly ignore that theory until more evidence comes up and I can't anymore. That said, I would be wholly unsurprised if Fukuin house ended up just being a dumping ground for children that Kinzo fathered with other women. It's a bit sick to use an army of your bastard children as servants, but I definitely wouldn't put it past him. I'm also on the Beatrice 2 was Beatrice 1 and Kinzo's child boat. That just seems like the most logical explanation, considering we know he's loving crazy, and we have no real evidence she came from anywhere else. As for Shannon being Beatrice's daughter, I don't think we really have any evidence for that apart from it making narrative sense. Which, in a story is fair, but in a murder mystery seems a bit weak. Maybe something will come up later. Tender Child Loin's note about genetic sexual attraction is a cool idea (and it's actually really interesting phenomena, which implies all sorts of interesting things about mate choice and sexual selection, but anyway...), it would explain both the Kanon/Jess relationship and the George/Shannon relationship, if that needs any more explanation than they're horny teens who rarely see anyone of the opposite sex. That's at least true for Jessica and Kanon, who when he's not at the mansion is presumably locked up in the orphanage, where he presumably won't be attracted to anyone as he grew up with them. That's less true for George, presumably he does meet other girls, but Shannon probably doesn't meet other boys.
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Feb 10, 2017 11:02
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  I gave up on sleeping and went up onto the deck. There, I was welcomed by the shining sun and a strong sea breeze...  ...He must have a lot of time on his hands too. After all, it'll be several more hours before we reach Niijima. It would only have taken a couple dozen minutes by airplane, but there was the chance that the Niijima airport was under the Sumadera family's web. The harbor would probably be the same. For that reason, I had obtained a boat that would let me land while avoiding the harbor, no questions asked. I'd bumped into a cheery boat captain, plied him generously, and he had decided to help me out, amused...  BGM: Sukashiyuri  "I just asked the captain, and it sounds like it'll take a full two hours more. Well, beggars can't be choosers." "...The weather sure is nice. Feels like I'll burn." "Going to read on the deck? You'll damage your book."Amakusa apparently thought this because I was clutching Maria onee-chan's diary under my arm. I'd been reading it half asleep, which was why I'd come back up still clutching it.  "How's it going? Think you'll be able to find the truth of Rokkenjima from Maria-san's diary?"  "Looks like you've got nothing to look forward to except questioning those involved on Niijima." "I imagine the Witch Hunters have showered them with questions over and over, so I'm pretty sure I won't find any new facts." "Hehhaha...! So even though your hopes are that low, you're willing to spend a half-day trip on a boat to go to Niijima anyway! Talk about fickle." "...It's like a journey of self-satisfaction, so that I can say 'I investigated'. I'm not so naive as to seriously think that the truth of 12 years ago will be revealed." "And when you're done with your self-satisfaction trip, what'll you do next?" "Who knows. I haven't thought about it. I'll go to Niijima, ask some people who were involved. Then, after going to Rokkenjima in the end and leaving some flowers, my journey will be over."Several days have already passed since this journey began. After being told by Bernkastel on the roof of that building to search for the truth of 12 years ago, I'd left on a journey like trying to grasp a cloud. At the time, I felt as though I'd experienced something mystical... and had the feeling that I might be able to grasp some kind of miracle at the end of this journey. But after several days passed, my excitement died down. On that day, when I stood on the roof of that skyscraper, my heart was completely cornered and dead. So I'd wanted from the bottom of my heart to be released from the cage of my body and rise into the sky... and had crossed the fence in order to die. Maybe experiencing the desire to die and actually stepping forwards, throwing my body down... caused some kind of mystical experience inside my head, making me think I had received a message from a witch. The excitement from my jump lessened over time, and the more I came back to my senses, the more this journey lost its meaning. But I didn't even consider suspending this journey just because of that. If I stop this journey, it'll mean acknowledging that the message from that witch was an illusion. And I felt as though that meant throwing away the promise the witch made... and any chance that someone from my family might come back. So, because it was hard to believe that those events were an illusion, I've continued on my journey. I don't seriously believe that this journey will change anything. It's even up to me when to end this journey. It's up to me to choose where the final destination is. In the end, this journey is only for my self-satisfaction...  "...Oh? If that's the answer you've reached after hovering over the line between life and death in the mercenary business, that's probably pretty deep." "Don't take it so lightly. What I'm trying to say... is that the only one who can acknowledge you in this world is you yourself."Amakusa continued stretching as he spoke. In an irritatingly fresh way. Hearing it told to me as though from a teacher made me instinctively want to resist, but what he was saying was extremely sensible.  BGM: Worldend (solo) "People work hard when they want to be acknowledged by someone. In most cases, that someone is their parents. Children learn how to work hard because they want to be praised by their parents. Although that's why I never learned." "Sorry, that's not how I meant it. What I'm trying to say is that there's nothing wrong with self-satisfaction. No matter who praises you, it's meaningless unless you can accept it. Turning it around, even if no one praises you, that doesn't matter as long as you can accept it." "...Self-satisfaction tends to contradict a desire to improve oneself, so we're usually taught that it's bad. Somehow, your argument seems like a pretty fresh take on it, Amakusa." "The anguish of the human world comes when you want someone to acknowledge you, but you don't know what it is you should be striving for. I had a time like that too. I wanted to be acknowledged by someone, but I didn't know what I wanted them to acknowledge about me. And since I didn't know what to strive for or how far I should go to be acknowledged, I did a lot of crazy things." "And the answer you reached... was self-satisfaction?" "It sounds bad, but that's how it is. Rich is the one who is content with what they are, they say. If I'm satisfied with my life, it doesn't matter what other people say. It's the same for your life, and for this journey. No one has any right to criticize you other than you yourself, Ange-san." "You're the only one who determines the meaning and results of your journey. If it's been a meaningful journey for you, then that's more than enough." "...I always did take you for a flippant ladies man, but you really do say weird things every once in a while. I'll bet you think saying stuff like that will make you popular." "Of course not, of course not. That's not how I meant it at all. Looks like you want to be alone. I'll head over to see the boat captain. Please, take it easy."Amakusa apparently decided I was in a bad mood. Although I didn't feel that way myself. Or, he might have finished a set of stretches and wanted to cool off in the shade. The sea winds were strong, but not enough to cool the rays of the sun. Amakusa disappeared. Only I remained. "...Self-satisfaction is life itself, huh?" BGM: Cage I noticed that Mammon had suddenly appeared, her abundant hair fluttering over by the prow of the ship. "It's true that a life of greed would be fun. But unlike you, Humans have a limited life-span." "If greed is eternal, that means a person will have desires even in the last moment before they die. Having desires means there's something that you want. Something you don't have, some way you aren't complete." "...I'm sure it's tough to die when you can't think of your life as being a full one. So I'm sure self-satisfaction is necessary." "...I see. Because of the existence of a life span, you have to compromise like that? All of my masters had very long life spans, so I've never thought of it." "I wonder if Humans live for the purpose of becoming satisfied. If so, it's probably easiest to live without desires. I see, so that's why greed is one of the seven deadly sins." "*giggle* Your praise honors me."Apparently that counted as a compliment in Mammon's eyes. She turned and gave a graceful bow.  "...Wouldn't it be pretty tough if you felt you were lacking something when you died?" "If so, then Humans live only so that they can meet a satisfying death. They live so that they can have a better death. They live so that they can die."...This kid's saying something pretty incredible. I see, as I'd expect from a demon stake. However, it might be the truth. Humans suffer because they aren't satisfied... and live only to find satisfaction. In other words, that might be the same as a desire to die satisfied. "I can't counter that. People live in order to be satisfied. And they hope to die that way. So, it's really painful when you don't know how to find that satisfaction." "Just how can you find something like that? In a Human's life." "...By being acknowledged. By hearing someone say 'You are happy'." "If it doesn't matter who acknowledges them, then I'll do it." "Yeah, that's the problem. People don't know who needs to acknowledge them." "So, searching for this person who can acknowledge them is the journey of their life? Hmmmm." "It sounds strange. Whether you're acknowledged or not, it supposedly doesn't change your circumstances. And yet, if you are acknowledged, you will be satisfied, while if you aren't, then you won't. It's almost like the blue bird. Because you can't notice the blue bird even though it's already in the cage, you have to go out on a journey searching everywhere." "What the heck. Kyahhahaha. Human lives sure are stupid." "That's right. Amakusa really hit on something. Rich is the one who is content with what they are, was it? I don't know where that proverb came from, but it's deep. Basically, if you can't find enough satisfaction unless someone else acknowledges you, that's the same as not acknowledging yourself. The ultimate in self-fulfillment is acknowledging yourself." "That's right. Because, if you can 'know' that you're fully satisfied, there's no need to be acknowledged by anyone. Just by taking notice of the small things, the Humans' foolish journey of life can be ended easily. You can spend the rest of your life playing and having a good time. A Human's life is so ridiculous, kyahhahahaha!" If most of a Human's life is a journey with the hopes that someone will acknowledge them, so that they can achieve a satisfied death... Then when they realize that the person doing the acknowledging isn't someone else, but they themselves, that pointless journey can end. Humans who have ended that journey can probably spend the rest of their lives as they wish, with their heads held high. How noble, how praiseworthy would that be... "You know, it seems Amakusa's on pretty bad terms with his parents. That makes sense. Any decent parents would want him to get the hell out of the trade he's in." "Does that really matter though? As long as it's fun for the person in question." "...Exactly. That's what it comes down to in the end. Criticism formed by the observations of other people doesn't matter. If your existence is firmly acknowledged by you yourself, that's enough. If you can live with confidence in yourself, you'll surely be able to accept and be satisfied with any kind of lifestyle." "I'm sure Amakusa will eventually eat a stray bullet on the battlefield and get seriously injured. He might even die... But I don't think he'd view that as something unfair. I'm sure he'd cackle about how that's also part of life." "What a great way to live. I could fall for the guy." "...Pitiful Humans who can't acknowledge themselves... wander about searching for that their whole lives, and without anything being accepted, they do nothing but grumble and die while still unsatisfied. How pitiful. Compared to people whose lives drag on without any purpose, Amakusa is more likely to eventually die by the roadside, but I think he's much more noble for living his life with his head held high." "Aren't the winners in life those who achieve enlightenment? If they can do that even a little sooner, they'll be able to live that much more of their life effectively."...With Mammon's words, I finally accepted a certain fact. In the past, I've called that girl unusual, a little strange. However, that wasn't true.  BGM: Eternity "...Maybe that's what made Maria onee-chan... so amazing. When she was at the age where she might or might not enter the first year of elementary school, she had already reached that point."For people like us, looking at her life from the outside, it wasn't something we'd call blessed. But even though days like that were engraved in her diary, they always finished up by saying that it was a happy day. Even though the part of her mother that didn't love her daughter came and went, she believed that her mother loved her. The mother's love that didn't exist, she created herself, filling her world with love. Others might observe her as an unsatisfied, pitiful girl, but she herself acknowledged that she was satisfied. And so, she was happy that way. It's easy to observe that as something pitiable and sad. But to her, that was an outsider's opinion, so it didn't matter. 'Whether or not it was happy for her'... was the only important thing. It's just like how, when people who live in the city point to the lifestyles of those in rural areas, and mourn their inconvenience and feel sympathy for them, it's really none of their business. If those who live there are satisfied with what they have, that's more than enough.  "...I've finally noticed something. I noticed it just now. I did something horrible to Maria onee-chan. And to you all and Sakutarou as well, on that day." "..." "Whether magic exists... or not. That's not up to other people to decide. It's up to you yourself. Whether magic exists to Maria onee-chan is a problem for Maria onee-chan to decide, not me." "...And yet, when I was young, on that day, I said it. By saying there was no way magic exists, I hurt her."  "Mariage Sorcière is the Witches' Alliance Maria onee-chan created. I was invited into it... and told to become a witch with them." "Thinking it a new, interesting game, I went along with that for a while. But, because of the cruelty of youth, I got tired of it half-way through. And, I tore her pure heart apart with sharp words." "...At that time, we must've gotten into a huge fight. I forgot about it right away, but she couldn't forget about it. After all, to her, magic was a natural power that really existed, and she believed that she'd be able to share it with me." "The young me tore that feeling apart. So, she closed herself up in a shell, assuming that she wouldn't be able to share her magic with anyone." "...If that's true, then Lady MARIA's journey through life wasn't over after all. If she'd been able to accept herself, then there'd be no need to collapse just because you denied her, Ange-sama." "Onee-chan was young. She still hadn't reached a philosophical viewpoint like Amakusa. Yeah, now I understand... That's why the witches' alliance called Mariage Sorcière was necessary."——An alliance where each acknowledges that the other is a witch. "...That's right, I'm pretty sure that was the first article in the agreement of Mariage Sorcière. Witches of the alliance would acknowledge each other and respect each other. That's the deepest and only meaning of the witches' alliance..."Maria onee-chan wanted to share with me the secret laws to make the world happy, called magic. But I was young. And she was too. I hurt her with innocent cruelty.   "How rude. We acknowledge that we exist ourselves. We're not like Humans, with their souls half-asleep. 'I think, therefore I am'. Whether you acknowledge or deny magic, the existence of the magic called the Seven Stakes of Purgatory... is a fact. As long as we acknowledge it ourselves, to borrow your words." "It truly would be violence for another person like me to deny it. I'm sure that'd be like having your true mother yell 'I wish you had never been born'... no, 'Disappear'."...Even after being slammed by all those words, Maria onee-chan's magic... made her believe in her mother's love. Sakutarou, her magic friend, always encouraged her. He kept saying that her mother loved her, that she was coming home late because of her work, and that she would definitely bring back a present... Even after Maria learned that her mother's work wasn't really the cause, magic allowed her to continue believing. And by believing that her mother loved her, by acknowledging herself, she filled her world with love and peace and serenity, establishing it completely.  "...Then what kind of journey is this?" "It was a journey... to apologize to Maria onee-chan for what happened that day." "..." "I don't know why, but that's what I think. If I hadn't hurt her, the incident 12 years ago might not have occurred. That's what I think."I have no basis for it. I don't have a clue how hurting Onee-chan could be connected with that mysterious incident several years later. But, for some reason, I can't imagine that there's no connection. A witch caused that incident. And the culprit is the Golden Witch, Beatrice. And Beatrice was part of the Mariage Sorcière Alliance of Witches. I horribly hurt the other witch of that alliance. I hurt her with the thought that magic doesn't exist. 
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Feb 10, 2017 14:29
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... Wait, what? Ok, hold on, so- how many possible reasons for the massacre does this make? Let's have a list: - the fulfillment of a Faustian bargain with a witch, informed by a lot of local rumors and a few gold bars which might have come from any where and might be the result of a good hoarding; - a ritual to grant wishes through the sacrifice of 13 people, as informed by the Epitaph and the rambling madness of a lonely old madman who doesn't want to admit he hosed up and is alone; - the grudgefest of a disgruntled sibling with a need for money outweighing any family loyalty, informed by all of the siblings's pasts and financial straits (as well as a few isolated details per episode, such as Rudolph's enigmatic proclamation to Battler that he might die in ep1, Eva's survival in ep3, etc.); -the roaring rampage of revenge of a mistreated servant, as evidenced by Shannon and Kanon's horrible life, the treatment of Shannon by Eva and Natsuhi, Shannon seeing Beatrice in ep2, and a lot of speculation both solid and reaching; -the work of a secret child of Kinzo, informed by Rosa's story of Kuwadorian, kinzo's secret gold room, and also tons of speculation; -the work of a wish made by Maria, who snapped under her mothers abuse and prayed to Beatrice for help to kill the "bad witch", which is informed by... Not much of anything really beyond Ange's reading of Maria's diary and her own guilt.  If I left something out, it's because I'm phone posting, but I think that's everything, beyond some unvoiced theories I have (hired hitman, vengeance by the Sumaderas, etc) which rely on Kinzo having been dead the whole time. Ok, so... This is all very bittersweet and poignant, as well as important from a character building perspective that Ange not only reflects on the sins of her past but to acknowledge where she resigned all hope... But what evidence is there for what she surmises here? The only thing I can think of is Maria's creepy witch mode, which is off putting and almost certainly informed by her resentment at her mothers abuse and the failure of her other family to stop it, and some theories that she might have been an accomplice to the murders (which might very well be true).
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Feb 10, 2017 19:15
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Here's a thought: What if there are two Shannons? After all, Shannon is just a name given a servant. There could be one Shannon who was killed however long ago, and the current Shannon, who is really Beatrice. Nothing explicitly contradicts this; Shannon is declared killed in Red in the third game, but it's never stated that she died at the same time as the other servants and Kinzo, only that she is dead. This would allow the existence of a 4th person who is still alive at the end of the third game, before Nanjo is killed, and shatter Eva-Beatrice's web.
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Feb 10, 2017 23:02
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I can't wait until we go back to the island and watch Edit: On rereading about Edit2: Turns out this was completely wrong except for the part about working for over 10 years. Edited out. Lycaeon fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Feb 12, 2017 |
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Feb 11, 2017 01:16
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Aumanor posted:You were sayin'? 
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Feb 11, 2017 05:59
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Yeah, this part of the game definitely has pacing issues. This entire update did, well, very little. It's Ange realizing that the only one who decides if she's happy is Ange, which is not entirely accurate and not that important.
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Feb 11, 2017 06:43
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I'm argue that this part is very important for Ange's arc.
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Feb 11, 2017 07:05
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Yeah, the problem with the beginning of Chapter 4 isn't that it's spinning its wheels uselessly, it's that we're introduced to a new character, ask 'why should we care?' and then we're given a huge wall of  that not only tells us how much said character's life is utter poo poo, but also talks more about both magic and the way the narrative works than anything in the first three chapters combined.It's all important information to have, but by this point the reader's eyes just sort of glaze over because it's been unrelenting navel-gazing and exposition that couldn't really be delivered more gracefully.
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Feb 11, 2017 07:26
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Lycaeon posted:This family forced a child to slave away as a servant for them for over 10 years in complete isolation from society. She's been free to leave any time, she just hasn't. She's not forced to work for the Ushiromiyas and neither is any of the other orphans. They do it because it's a good deal for them. Well, also because it's a bit of a debt of gratitude since Ushiromiyas finance the orphanage, but housework in a large mansion is hardly slavery. She also, as the other orphans, lives in the Fukuin House dormitory, so saying she's in "complete isolation from society" is a bit of an overstatement. Lycaeon posted:And her education...there's no school on this island, and I doubt the Ushiromiyas would've bothered with sending her to school off island like Jessica. She doesn't live on the island, so... Qrr posted:It's Ange realizing that the only one who decides if she's happy is Ange, which is not entirely accurate and not that important. I hope that's not all you get out of this update tiistai fucked around with this message at 13:07 on Feb 11, 2017 |
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Feb 11, 2017 12:39
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I got the impression that the Fukuin alumni aren't forced to become servants so much as their options in life are very carefully managed, such that they can either serve the Ushiromiyas or abandon everything they've ever known to try their luck in the vast and indifferent world outside. That way, your furniture can't even imagine their life being different 
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Feb 11, 2017 13:05
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Ange rejected witches and 'several years later' the crime was committed...when Ange was 6. Was she the world's most eloquent and jaded 4 year old?
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Feb 11, 2017 13:27
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Insurrectionist posted:Ange rejected witches and 'several years later' the crime was committed...when Ange was 6. Said rejection of witches was literally this:    Would that be something beyond a four-year old? Didn't strike me as odd, although to be fair I try to have as little contact with 4-year olds as possible.
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Feb 11, 2017 13:38
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Pretty sure I was way past 4 when I stopped playing pretend but who knows what kinda harsh upbringing an Ushiromiya family could do to you. Doesn't seem much like a 4-year-old's way of talking either, and 4 is the most generous interpretation of 'several years' already.
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Feb 11, 2017 13:41
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Insurrectionist posted:Doesn't seem much like a 4-year-old's way of talking either, and 4 is the most generous interpretation of 'several years' already. It's anime. Characters spring out of the womb fluent in three languages, fully aware of how to pilot a giant robot with more moving parts than they have bones in their body, and ready to earn a PhD or their induction into the Order of the Rising Sun. That said, I've known kids that could hold full, understandable conversations with people even at 3, so one being your usual "rear end in a top hat child" at 4 isn't... too unheard of, especially if her two families are the yakuza and the Ushiromiyas. That said, "several years" could also be an entirely unintentional hyperbole/misremembering by Ange; I know the sprite is identical because technical limitations, but for all we know it could actually have been a few months before the incident. Memory is weird. KataraniSword fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Feb 11, 2017 |
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Feb 11, 2017 14:11
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Spoilers: that's pretty much how a 4-year-old would talk oh also 数年 means several years as in more than one, maybe about like six at most I guess
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Feb 11, 2017 14:42
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SatansOnion posted:I got the impression that the Fukuin alumni aren't forced to become servants so much as their options in life are very carefully managed, such that they can either serve the Ushiromiyas or abandon everything they've ever known to try their luck in the vast and indifferent world outside. That way, your furniture can't even imagine their life being different Especially true if Shannon worked at the mansion since she was Maria's age. Also, who would think that would be a good idea? I'm pretty sure that's been illegal in Japan since the 1940s. Well, at least on paper.
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Feb 11, 2017 16:11
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tiistai posted:She's been free to leave any time, she just hasn't. She's not forced to work for the Ushiromiyas and neither is any of the other orphans. They do it because it's a good deal for them. Well, also because it's a bit of a debt of gratitude since Ushiromiyas finance the orphanage, but housework in a large mansion is hardly slavery. Oh...in which case I apologize. I assumed that servants working in a large island mansion isolated from the mainland would have lived there as well... Edit: Oh...on reread there is a mention of a shift rotation for the servants. I completely ignored that.  Edit2: Okay, so I was completely wrong then. Ignore my previous post. Still, 10 years is a ridiculously long time to be working in a terrible setting like that. Edit3: Tender Child Loins posted:Especially true if Shannon worked at the mansion since she was Maria's age. Also, who would think that would be a good idea? I'm pretty sure that's been illegal in Japan since the 1940s. Well, at least on paper. Edit4: SatansOnion posted:I got the impression that the Fukuin alumni aren't forced to become servants so much as their options in life are very carefully managed, such that they can either serve the Ushiromiyas or abandon everything they've ever known to try their luck in the vast and indifferent world outside. That way, your furniture can't even imagine their life being different The more I think about it the more the Children don't have any sense of agency or free-will. They're completely moldable. If they're kept locked up in an environment with controlled information they'll believe everything they're taught no matter how exploitive it is. They'll accept being told to work under unfair conditions, and, according to this, they'll even consider it an honor. Shannon was told and indoctrinated her entire life that she was less than human, just furniture for whom serving the Ushiromiyas was the greatest possible honor. She then went to the island and found out that she was an Ushiromiya and that her actual family ruined her entire life. She couldn't even be upset about it...it was Beatrice who was taking in all of that anger and frustration. The Ushiromiyas, at least the bastard and his adult children...they all knew this was going on and didn't care as long as they got obedient and respectful servants that they could mistreat and disrespect on a whim. They deserve everything that's happened. Edit5: Oh my god. Kinzo's the owner of the Fukuin house and guided its practices. He's responsible for the indoctrination of its orphans. And he sent his own daughter there, knowing the entire time what would've happened to her. What did happen to her. He's a bigger monster than I could've possibly imagined. Burning alive is too good for him. 
Lycaeon fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Feb 12, 2017 |
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Feb 11, 2017 17:52
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CottonWolf posted:I'm also on the Beatrice 2 was Beatrice 1 and Kinzo's child boat. That just seems like the most logical explanation, considering we know he's loving crazy, and we have no real evidence she came from anywhere else. If this is at all close to the truth here, I hope the above two theories are mutually exclusive. For Shannon's sake, I hope that Beatrice 2 was some random orphan.
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Feb 12, 2017 03:47
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 "And what's your basis for it?" "I have none. I just think it's true." "Hmmmm... The Japanese sure are interesting. Even when they're the victim, they feel as though they did something wrong and apologize for no reason. I could understand if you said 'I hate Beatrice for stealing my family!' or something, but you really are weird, feeling guilty for no reason and apologizing." "Of course I hate Beatrice. I couldn't continue this journey without that feeling. But it's okay to choose yet another purpose for this journey. There's nothing wrong with adding on a goal of apologizing for past sins, in addition to getting revenge on a witch for what happened 12 years ago. I can at least go to Rokkenjima, apologize for my reckless remarks, and offer flowers... No, there's something better than flowers. And I think that would be more fitting for Onee-chan."I stood up, not minding that the sea breeze scattered my hair, and concentrated my mind... I lifted my palm up to the height of my head...and imagined a vast space... "...Ange-sama," "...Be quiet..." "...Come, arise. I am the witch apprentice, ANGE Beatrice. I was excommunicated, but I was once a member of the same alliance, and you are the dearly-missed furniture who played with me. Answer to my call..."It was hard to tell in the middle of the day, but a faint blue light gathered around the palm of my hand. ...Then, Sakutarou's form was revived.  His cute ears, his bright-red muffler. It came off easily, so Onee-chan faithfully re-wrapped it all the time, didn't she...? "...Sakutaro, do you recognize us? Do you know who we are...?" BGM: Soul of Soul With a sleepy face, as though waking up from a long slumber, Sakutarou looked all around him as he spoke. "It's been a long time, Sakutarou. I'm pretty sure this is the first time I've summoned you with my own power. And now, I'm the only one who can summon you." '...Uryu...'Those words might have been a bit cruel. Sakutarou's face clouded over... "In the past, I denied you. Now that I've summoned you... it means I've accepted your existence." '...Are you sure...? Is it really all right... for me to be summoned into Ange's world...?'His eyes were a bit frightened. It was only natural. I, who had played with him like a friend before, had suddenly denied him and tried to burn him with the magic-resisting toxin. It was only natural that he was scared... "I apologize... for that day. To you too, Mammon. And to the rest of you." No, they're always there. Always by my side. As long as I acknowledge that it's okay for them to be there, they'll always appear. "You certainly do exist. Lucifer. And Leviathan. And Satan. And Belphegor. And Mammon. And Beelzebub. And Asmodeus. And Sakutarou too." "...Are you sure? You're one challenging Beatrice-sama, Ange-sama. Is it okay for one in a position of denying witches to acknowledge us?" "As to whether magic exists or not in my world, sorry, but let me put that on hold. It's not like I myself acknowledged the existence of magic." "...But then, doesn't that contradict the fact... that you're acknowledging us?" "It's because magic exists for people who believe. Even if I don't. If someone believes, then magic will exist in the human world." "That fact won't change in the slightest whether I believe in magic or not. No, it mustn't change. That person just had to hold their head up high and believe in their own magic. I acknowledge that. So, it wouldn't be strange at all for all of you to exist." "...Quite a play on words, but it's an interesting interpretation." "What you're saying, Ange-sama, is probably a Devil's Proof." "A Devil's Proof...?" "Right?! To prove the existence of demons, you just need to find one." "But it's impossible to deny the existence of demons." "Kyahha! And we're here. That means that whether Ange-sama believes in magic or not, our existence is unshakable."  "Y-You're right... Even though you're in a position of denying magic, why...?" "That's probably... because I learned what it means to respect and acknowledge. Right now, I might be able... to understand the depths of Maria onee-chan's... and Beatrice's magic."In the past, I didn't believe in things like magic. Thinking something like that couldn't exist, I acted like I was closing my eyes tightly and couldn't see anything. But now, I'm different. I get the feeling I can look right at the thing called magic... and close in on its true nature...  "...How frustrating. It's truly rare to find a Human so free of the magic-resisting toxin in this day and age. And she has such an uncommon genius for being a witch..." "That's right. If Ange-sama tried to become a witch right now, she could grow to be a Great Witch, maybe even at Beatrice-sama's level." "Even so, she has acknowledged our existence and is our master. Most likely, Ange-sama will be our final master. Let us think of this as our final service, and apply ourselves to the fullest." "...Ble-ah. But I just can't staaand that Ange-sama still doesn't believe in magic herself." "...Ange-sama, please believe in magic toooo. It feels like a waste to finally have a master and have it not be a wiiitch." "Even though you have outstanding talent that could make you one of the greatest of witches, your goal is to attack witches. It's so frustrating. Well, even so, that's your life, the way you live, and in the world where you've decided that, there's nothing we can do to complain." "Thanks for understanding me. Yeah, whether magic exists to me or not, that's up to me to decide. Regardless of whether magic actually does exist somewhere in the world or not." Billions of people live on the earth. But I probably won't meet even 1% of those people. Even so, I will speak of a world. 'My world', which doesn't know even 1% of the world. "I'm not qualified to deny the laws of a world I don't know. So just because magic doesn't exist in my world, I can't deny that magic exists in a world I don't know. That makes it a true Devil's Proof. No, maybe it's more like 'When in Rome, do as the Romans do'."I can be confident in the world I know. So even if that's denied by a complete stranger who doesn't know a thing about my world, that's nothing to worry about. And in the same way, I've got no right to deny a world I don't know... just because I don't know about it.  "Therefore, regardless of whether there's magic in my world or not, I can't deny the magic Maria onee-chan taught me." 'Uryu! After all, even if you've never seen it, magic exists!' "Yes. That's why, as I've already said, you friends of the witches' alliance, Mariage Sorcière, can't be denied by me or anyone else."I proclaimed that most important part again. Even though the sea breeze and the crashing of the waves were noisy, it was a time of silence. Both Sakutarou and the Seven Sisters of Purgatory... reflected upon my words. And, probably, I did too. Does magic exist? Do witches exist? While ignoring what the answer would be for my own world, I acknowledged their existence. That contradiction was what I'd proclaimed so boldly. v'Thank you, Ange.' "If you'll acknowledge that much, can't you acknowledge witches too...? No, that was a foolish question. You already have a clear answer to it." "Sorry. Though, I do acknowledge that witches might exist somewhere in this world. But that doesn't shake my world." "...You won't acknowledge witches or magic. You'll definitely expose the truth of Rokkenjima. Right?" "Yes. That's my world. Even if a real witch exists, I won't acknowledge it in my world. No matter how much that witch tries to convince me." "Your position is to attack witches, Ange-sama. And I understand well that you haven't the slightest wavering in that feeling. We are your furniture, the Seven Sisters of Purgatory...! We will always be by your side. We'll always be waiting for the day that we can be useful...!" "Although, since you don't believe in magic, we can never be anything more than people to talk to." "That's enough for now. We've been left room to exist. For that alone, we should thank and acknowledge Ange-sama." "In short! All of us!" 'Are all together again... Uryu-!!' "Kya-h!! Sakutaro-! Let me squeeze youuuuuuuuu-!!" They were also celebrating a long-missed reunion. If their existence is permitted, they're definitely capable of existing here. No, even if I don't permit it, they can exist. Because I acknowledged them, they showed their reunion's joy to me as well.. As I watched over that scene, I reflected over what this journey of mine meant. "...I wonder if everyone will forgive me this way." "You've done enough. We are furniture. Just being summoned, just being allowed to be by your side makes us happy." 'Uryu...! Ange, thank you very much...!' "...Come to think of it, why was I able to summon Sakutarou? No, it's the other way around. Why wasn't Onee-chan able to summon Sakutarou?" Which meant she hadn't been able to summon him like this anymore. In the past, Onee-chan said it was more advantageous in a summoning to have a vessel. However, a vessel is like training wheels, and it shouldn't be absolutely necessary. In other words, even if the stuffed animal lion that was Sakutarou's vessel didn't exist, it should've be possible to summon him. ...No, when you put it like that, it's even a little doubtful whether summoned things can be limited by life and death. Moreover, Sakutarou should have been an especially important friend to Maria onee-chan. She should've been able to strive hard to summon him one more time. It certainly was sad that the original stuffed animal vessel had been torn apart, but why did he 'die' and become impossible to summon again...?  BGM: Moon "It's the same as the existence of magic. If Sakutarou has died in Lady MARIA's world, then he can't exist in her world." '...Uryu...'The shock of having her beloved stuffed animal torn apart...had left a wound in her heart serious enough to prevent her from summoning her irreplaceable close friend. In Maria onee-chan's eyes, Sakutarou died. So even if Sakutarou can exist like this to me, he cannot exist before her. 'I... was always with Maria... When Maria cried, I was always right beside her, telling her not to cry... But my form, my voice, nothing of me will reach Maria now...'Sakutarou hung his head, looking sad. "...After that incident, the nature of Mariage Sorcière rapidly began to change. Before then, the alliance was a peaceful thing. But after that incident, it grew full of shadier things, focusing on how to curse people you hate. Onee-chan's diary began to show a clear change."A diary is a mirror that reflects one's heart as it is. It probably showed the personality called Maria die... and be reborn as the evil witch personality, MARIA. When she buried that diary in hatred and sadness, her heart surely wasn't satisfied. Because it wasn't satisfied, she had to bury it with hatred and sadness. And while still unsatisfied, she met with death. ...I wonder if her unsatisfied soul has a hole opened in its chest from sadness even now... and continually wanders, dripping tears down and calling Sakutarou's name...  'Uryu...' "What can I do to revive you in Maria onee-chan's world? If I can learn that method, I'll be able to save Onee-chan. That's the method of atonement I've been given. What can be done to revive Sakutarou?" '...To Maria, my vessel had a very important meaning...' "The vessel. In other words, if we could revive the lion stuffed animal..." 'But... Mama Rosa made my stuffed animal herself, so only she could make it...'Even inside the diary, Maria onee-chan had asked this of Beatrice... and was refused for that reason. The magical significance of a stuffed animal being unique and handmade is very large. Then, if we could make the same thing once more... But Aunt Rosa is already gone from this world. We can't make the same thing again. "...Was there ever another identical stuffed animal made, or anything like that?" "He's a stuffed animal made to be Lady MARIA's birthday present... and is the only one of his kind in the world. A handmade and unique vessel. That's why it conceals a great magical power. And, if lost, it cannot be obtained again. It won't revive..." '...Uryu...'...Because she knew that, Maria onee-chan watched that stuffed animal, which was unique in that world, get torn apart, and despaired. Because it was the only one of its kind in the world, and she couldn't permit a compromise such as buying another one, she had despaired from the bottom of her heart... "...But Sakutarou is right here. Even without a vessel, he's here. Because I acknowledge that, he certainly exists in my world. Even if Maria onee-chan doesn't acknowledge him, that cannot be denied. Right...?" "Logically, that's true, but I think using the same logic to make Lady MARIA accept him could be difficult." '...Maria, I'm not dead... I'm right here... Uryu...' "I'm sure that on Rokkenjima, I'll be able to be reunited with Maria onee-chan. And, no matter what, I'll revive the you that's inside Onee-chan...and let you be reunited." 'Can you do it...?' "It'll probably be hard. Just like how, after being invited into the witches' alliance, I rejected it without understanding what it meant, she might also reject your existence." "...But, I've got to do it. That's the only way I can atone for my sins." "...Ange-sama..." '...' "That island, which was the beginning of everything, is the final destination of this journey. You all are the furniture of a witch, so as your master, I have to take you home... to the witch's island, to Rokkenjima."Even though the rays of the sun had been so strong, at some point clouds had started to hang down. The spray that hit my cheek might not all have come from crashing waves.  BGM: None Amakusa called out to me with an expression that said 'Oh, you're still here?' When I looked up, I saw that the island's silhouette had gotten much larger. We might reach land very soon. I remembered that the weather report had mentioned scattered rains. The sky wasn't dark enough for rain clouds. It'll probably be just for a short time. Even though the rain was light enough not to be a pain... Having rain start to fall as we approached the island felt like some kind of fate. It was raining on October 4, 1986 as well. I'm approaching the Rokkenjima of that day... and not just in distance... I went back down with Amakusa. He was carrying what looked like a really large and heavy golf bag. It was something Amakusa had brought back with him on a day when we'd split up. I didn't inquire as to its contents, but it was hard to imagine that they were anything peaceful.  "Why are these things so darn heavy all the time? A French instructor taught me something interesting about that once. He said they should always be heavy. After all, a human life is heavier than the world. So these should be even heavier." "...It'd be nice if you didn't need to use them." "That would be nice."Amakusa set the golf bag-like luggage down beside him.  BGM: Over Cutting through the drizzle as she traversed the runway, Sumadera Kasumi entered the lobby with two black-suits as guards. The four black-suits who had been waiting inside the lobby stood up and respectfully lowered their heads in salute.  """Kasumi-sama...!!""" "We have a car prepared! Please, this way."They got into two luxury cars that had been rented...  "...Ange should be heading for Rokkenjima. A deserted island... How convenient. You've arranged for some tools, I take it?" "Yes Ma'am...!"The black-suit in the passenger seat put a heavy bag that had been set by his feet onto his lap, opened the catch with a *click*, and showed Kasumi what was inside. Inside were several silver lumps of carefully wrapped aluminum foil. He peeled one open to show her.  
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Feb 12, 2017 14:11
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Magic exists whether you like it or not you nerds
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Feb 12, 2017 14:48
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Wait, is she now gunning for Ange now, literally? The Sumaderas really must be Yakuza, if they're pulling out poo poo like this in Japan.
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Feb 12, 2017 17:01
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People are free to believe whatever lies they choose, of course. ... Man, I'm out for a couple of days and now we're talking about incest? EDIT: bman in 2288 posted:Wait, is she now gunning for Ange now, literally? The Sumaderas really must be Yakuza, if they're pulling out poo poo like this in Japan. It's kind of weird reading that part as an American. The dramatic reveal that OH NO THEY HAVE SOME GUNS kind of loses some of its impact when basically anyone might have some guns. ProfessorProf posted:There will be enough information to solve the murders by the end of this episode. The Epitaph... I'm honestly not sure. That one's a lot more vague. By the end of this episode, we will have either four or five separate mysteries (depending on whether this fourth one represents the events as they actually happened, or if there's another solution to the real-world murders that doesn't match this fourth story). Do you mean we'll be able to solve all of them? idonotlikepeas fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Feb 12, 2017 |
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Feb 12, 2017 17:03
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quote:Even inside the diary, Maria onee-chan had asked this of Beatrice... and was refused for that reason. The magical significance of a stuffed animal being unique and handmade is very large. Then, if we could make the same thing once more... This kinda seems like an excuse that the person claiming to be Beatrice made up to explain not being able to stitch a custom doll in an instant. Beatrice: W, well, you see, Maria, as it is a handmade doll (that I can't easily replace at the store), it contains significance that can not be acted upon. Maria: ...Are you sure that magic can't repair a single tear on a stuffed animal? It kinda seems like an excuse to me-- Beatrice: This is just the way magic works, don't break our magical nonquestioning treaty.
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Feb 12, 2017 18:45
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Oh boy, it seems the  is gonna start again soon enough.tiistai posted:Magic exists whether you like it or not you nerds 
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Feb 12, 2017 18:59
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Ange...  quote:
I like this, as well as the rest of the update. Happiness and lightheartedness is sorely needed right now. Ange realizes she has no right to deny a worldview someone else believes and takes comfort in just because she thinks it's strange and delusional. It's a beautiful thing to think something doesn't exist but accept it wholeheartedly in other people's faiths instead of denying it to their face out of a misplaced sense of agency. Faith grows stronger with others, and even if you don't believe you can still nurture someone else's faith and make their lives happier. The parallel with Christianity and other religions is uncanny, though I maintain once a worldview starts actively hurting people *cough* antivaxxers *cough* it's time to start denying it. Ange's acceptance of magic here despite her personal refusal to believe in it is heartwarming.  Edit: Faith is real. The fact that it exists in someone's mind (Whether or not it exists outside of the mind, that's not something to discuss here) means it exists. Moreover, a person's beliefs influence their actions, and actions have a real and measurable impact on reality. And this effect becomes stronger and stronger the more people believe; if you look at any major religion you can see the major impact it has on reality through the people who believe in it. So the lesson from this? Magic is real, because an imaginary friend murdered an entire island of assholes and made people around the world go crazy with speculation even over a decade later.
Lycaeon fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Feb 12, 2017 |
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Feb 12, 2017 19:29
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EagerSleeper posted:This kinda seems like an excuse that the person claiming to be Beatrice made up to explain not being able to stitch a custom doll in an instant. That's the opposite of what Beato was saying to Maria though. She said that the vessel wasn't necessary for Sakutaro to live, but Maria decided it was. The whole problem was that Rosa had killed Sakutaro and if its creator denied it then someone else stitching it up wasn't going to be any good in Maria's eyes.
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Feb 12, 2017 20:16
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Is there some sort of cultural significance to seeing Maria and MARIA, or is it just a difference for the sake of the English translation. I've seen it done before in a Type Moon game, and was curious.
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Feb 12, 2017 20:31
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The lower case version is 真里亜, written in kanji, as the name is properly spelled. The upper case version is マリア, written in katakana, which is mainly used for phonetically expressing words/names from other languages.
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Feb 12, 2017 20:34
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RedMagus posted:Is there some sort of cultural significance to seeing Maria and MARIA, or is it just a difference for the sake of the English translation. I've seen it done before in a Type Moon game, and was curious.
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Feb 12, 2017 20:38
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idonotlikepeas posted:Man, I'm out for a couple of days and now we're talking about incest? To be fair, Battler started it.
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Feb 12, 2017 21:04
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cast your mind back to the easygoing days of hitting on your cousins
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Feb 12, 2017 21:06
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I like the Ange has reached enlightenment.
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Feb 12, 2017 22:08
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Speaking of the easy going romantic comedy shenanigans amongst cousins, I would like to take a poll of the thread. Our long awaited return to Rokkenjima is upon us at last and things will begin moving quickly now, and since it's been so long I don't want to get in the way of what is sure to be an elegant and magical closed room murder extravaganza. However, as you may notice if you look down at your calendars, it is Valentines Day in 2 days. You may not have realized this by now, but Romantic Love is a subject near and dear to Umineko's heart. In other words there is a special valentines day TIP we have prepared for you as a bonus update. Without spoilers, it' a pretty silly, barely canon story, and pretty much perfect as a way to take a break from the past few days of incest and crushed dreams. Essentially, I have two choices: 1. Post The Valentine's Tip on Tuesday, in what will almost certainly be a double update day or 2. Post the TIP at the next appropriate break point (probably next weekend) Please post your preference in BOLD. I don't promise to keep a strict count, but I don't really know how newbies read the thread, and I want to know if there is an overwhelming preference one way or another. For what it's worth, I really enjoy this TIP, and it's probably my 3rd favorite over all.
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Feb 12, 2017 22:21
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Lycaeon posted:So the lesson from this? Magic is real, because an imaginary friend murdered an entire island of assholes and made people around the world go crazy with speculation even over a decade later. I'm not sure to what degree it's been formally said and to what degree it's just been speculated, but isn't the state of things right now that magic can't be ruled out as a cause? There was an investigation into the events of Rokkenjima but it didn't reveal anything about what happened? And... Maria had to be identified with dental records? So there was probably some kind of, like, explosion or fire, and whether it was part of a witch's bacchanal or an actual murder method it left things in a state that Team Witch can go all, oh, this person was staked in the head! No, they had their guts pulled out! Oh, this person died in a locked room! No, they were killed somewhere else! And a message in a bottle written by someone who isn't even Maria is now the most reliable source on what went on, at least to all the rich occult maniacs out there.
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Feb 12, 2017 22:22
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