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I hope robots aren't entirely Materialist-only going forward. Like, turning your entire population into data and uploading yourselves being a Materialist thing, sure, but all robotics being locked to one ethos when robots, unlike psionics, are such a sci-fi staple, would suck.
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Feb 10, 2017 04:22
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Wiz posted:Keep in mind you'll also be able to change empire ethics in Banks so if you decide that robots aren't for you after all and you'd actually like some space magic, you can work to turn your empire spiritualist. It's just that you can't do that and also keep your robots. Awww man, robot space pope was one of my fav leaders.
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Feb 10, 2017 04:24
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jesus christ i took a few hours off to play the game and people went to pieces over if science is a religion, clearly i need to be trolling this place 24/7
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Feb 10, 2017 04:29
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I really wanna have an empire of robots spreading the gospel of the Holy Motherboard (petaflops be unto her.) It would be cool to have (maybe as a paid DLC) an android species type composed of fallen robots who have forgotten their masters and original programming, or who were originally designed (with rigid programming reinforcement) to be mere equals, no more no less. Mechanically they could be either identical to the existing organic races, or much more like them than the existing options. I know I'm not the only one who would like to start as bots without having to tech into it. Edit: clearly I chose the right time to come back into the thread, given that The Great Pedantic War of '16 has ended, and the next one is brewing.
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Feb 10, 2017 04:32
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Sun Wu Kampf posted:Hey Wiz, can y'all add some vertically oriented ship sets? I'd pay $5 for a few sets of ships that are set up like the Homeworld mothership (to give an example). good suggestion but i'm wondering if they would be harder to see given that stellaris is largely top down or isometric perspective
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Feb 10, 2017 04:52
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Wiz posted:Keep in mind you'll also be able to change empire ethics in Banks so if you decide that robots aren't for you after all and you'd actually like some space magic, you can work to turn your empire spiritualist. It's just that you can't do that and also keep your robots. From the way you are speaking it seems that the only two ethics that will matter are materialist and spiritualist, all the others become redundant. I hope that is not the case. What do the other Ethics get? Because right now it looks like there is entire game mechanics and quest lines devoted to one ethics, while the others get non, Why would I want to roll a fanatic xenophobe or a fanatic egalitarian, or fanatic militarist, or any combination of both, when half the content of this new DLC is tied to this two specific ethics "Spiritualists, materialists"?
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Feb 10, 2017 05:16
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good reasons for psionics to be spiritualist-only: more diversity of play experiences, space wizards are a good thematic fit for spiritualist empires bad reasons for psionics to be spiritualist-only: actually, psychic powers are real but scientists won't test them because they love atoms too much
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Feb 10, 2017 05:18
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Savy Saracen salad posted:From the way you are speaking it seems that the only two ethics that will matter are materialist and spiritualist, all the others become redundant. I hope that is not the case. What do the other Ethics get? Because right now it looks like there is entire game mechanics and quest lines devoted to one ethics, while the others get non, Why would I want to roll a fanatic xenophobe or a fanatic egalitarian, or fanatic militarist, or any combination of both, when half the content of this new DLC is tied to this two specific ethics "Spiritualists, materialists"? Unless I'm mistaken he said there was a lot more content including stuff not even mentioned yet. I think it's premature to come to the conclusion that none of the other ethos are getting any unique perks. The genetics ascension has to go somewhere after all and who knows what else they have that hasn't even been mentioned yet. Besides if Ascension is tied to end game goal type stuff, it makes sense for spiritualist and materialist to get these kinds of goals. The end game goal for militarists, pacifists, xenophiles, xenophobes are already in game. All the new systems will give you more tools for liberating or conquering the galaxy in the way of your choosing, befriend everyone or whatever. But right now spiritualist and materialist really don't have the same kind of long term goal to work towards and they are getting one. Maybe individualism and collectivism could use something more but again we still don't know a lot about all of the new features that are coming so it seems pretty premature to worry about this.
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Feb 10, 2017 05:41
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Wiz posted:Keep in mind you'll also be able to change empire ethics in Banks so if you decide that robots aren't for you after all and you'd actually like some space magic, you can work to turn your empire spiritualist. It's just that you can't do that and also keep your robots. My fav example of something like that would be biomechanical robots or fleshmods as opposed to cybernetics, but its neat too when you can get variety rather than depth and be rewarded with unique bonuses for that too.
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Feb 10, 2017 05:52
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Kitchner posted:I honestly feel this is a trap a lot of game designers fall into.  discworld MUD buddy.
Azuth0667 fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Feb 10, 2017 |
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Feb 10, 2017 06:10
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Baronjutter posted:I love that I'm too materialistic IRL to even imagine how something like the shroud could be hard for a determined scientific study to uncover. I look at it like complex number in mathematics (or hyperreal and surreal numbers for that matter.) We had been using numbers to describe the physical universe for millennia but nobody ever measured something that was the square root of a negative number long or heavy. It took pure theoretical work in algebra to figure out that numbers have an extra dimension that jut out perpendicular to natural numbers in a way that can't be observed by Humans. No amount of measuring or experimentation would produce this result, instead it relied on people thinking in a completely non-intuitive fashion to make the leap and now all our maths and science rely on this purely intellectual discovery. I figure the shroud is similar except it transcends even mathematics and meta-physics and relies on a mystical mindset and thought patterns to comprehend.
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Feb 10, 2017 07:51
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NoNotTheMindProbe posted:I look at it like complex number in mathematics (or hyperreal and surreal numbers for that matter.) We had been using numbers to describe the physical universe for millennia but nobody ever measured something that was the square root of a negative number long or heavy. It took pure theoretical work in algebra to figure out that numbers have an extra dimension that jut out perpendicular to natural numbers in a way that can't be observed by Humans. No amount of measuring or experimentation would produce this result, instead it relied on people thinking in a completely non-intuitive fashion to make the leap and now all our maths and science rely on this purely intellectual discovery. as a mathematician, no
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Feb 10, 2017 08:10
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Baronjutter posted:I love that I'm too materialistic IRL to even imagine how something like the shroud could be hard for a determined scientific study to uncover. It's actually really easy when you're not circlejerking yourself into oblivion. Take that dumb xkcd graph someone posted earlier. Now imagine it was literal. That simply having more people with a camera actually made Bigfeet, aliens, UFOs, ghosts and so on disappear. Spiritualists believe in the Force. Materialists believe in midichlorians. But in Stellaris, belief apparently shapes reality to some extent.
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Feb 10, 2017 08:26
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Feb 10, 2017 08:32
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I believe that the salad-people of Vinaigrette III should become a part of my empire. Their natural resources should fuel my growth in a healthy manner. The Secret is a great tool for galactic overlords that just happen to have a grand warfleet, don'tcha know.
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Feb 10, 2017 08:32
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Roland Jones posted:I hope robots aren't entirely Materialist-only going forward. Like, turning your entire population into data and uploading yourselves being a Materialist thing, sure, but all robotics being locked to one ethos when robots, unlike psionics, are such a sci-fi staple, would suck. Yeah - I agree with hard locking things to create variety in playstyles, but at least having access to basic tier robots should be accessible to everyone. I can't envision any kind of society which can build huge space battleship fleets but is unable to make a robot, except for maybe if you wanted to have a fanatic spiritualist kind of empire where everything that moves by itself and is made of metal is verboten for religious reasons.
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Feb 10, 2017 08:41
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Milky Moor posted:Take that dumb xkcd graph someone posted earlier. Now imagine it was literal. That simply having more people with a camera actually made Bigfeet, aliens, UFOs, ghosts and so on disappear. There's a good short story about exactly that. It's by David Brin. http://www.davidbrin.com/fiction/thoseeyes.html MilkmanLuke fucked around with this message at 08:49 on Feb 10, 2017 |
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Feb 10, 2017 08:42
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Roland Jones posted:I hope robots aren't entirely Materialist-only going forward. Like, turning your entire population into data and uploading yourselves being a Materialist thing, sure, but all robotics being locked to one ethos when robots, unlike psionics, are such a sci-fi staple, would suck. No, you can still make robots as non materialist, so long as you're not spiritualist.
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Feb 10, 2017 09:18
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Wiz posted:No, you can still make robots as non materialist, so long as you're not spiritualist. Androids? Will robot colonies be a materialist only perk?
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Feb 10, 2017 09:22
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Demiurge4 posted:Androids? Will robot colonies be a materialist only perk? By robots I mean all the way up to synths. Only materialists can give them rights though.
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Feb 10, 2017 09:29
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Wiz posted:By robots I mean all the way up to synths. Only materialists can give them rights though. This is really odd to me. Egalitarians and Xenophiles, the two ethoses that really care about other people having rights, can't give sapient robots rights, but Materialists, an ethos that otherwise has nothing to do with how people are treated, can? I guess the logic is something like "only Materialists acknowledge that they're people", but it still doesn't seem right that any combination of Egalitarian, Pacifist, and Xenophile, i.e. the most "we love everyone, hate slavery, and really hate purging" ethics, have to make robots slaves (or at least a permanent second-class) and are even capable of just killing them all off unless they also believe that souls don't exist and the only things that matter are what can be observed and studied. Also really disappointing because I was planning on changing my Pacifist-Xenophile-Materialist empire to Egalitarian-Pacifist-Xenophile with 1.5, since those ethics match it better, and I always like making robots and giving them equal rights as part of my "I love everyone" socialist space commune. Edit: Like, only Materialists being able to upload themselves? Sure, I can accept that the same way I can accept only Spiritualists getting psychic powers. Only Materialists being able to give robots rights, though, seems unnecessarily limiting and contrary to what the ethics I listed above mean. Especially Xenophile, since its whole thing is "we love things that are different from ourselves and acknowledge them as people despite our differences, physical and otherwise". Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 10:04 on Feb 10, 2017 |
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Feb 10, 2017 09:38
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By embracing factions, can we get multiple fanatic ethoses?
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Feb 10, 2017 09:39
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Anticheese posted:By embracing factions, can we get multiple fanatic ethoses? No you just move your 3 points around. If you embrace a faction and gain an ethos point in one type then the one with the least attraction in your empire is removed.
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Feb 10, 2017 09:49
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Wiz posted:Only materialists can give them rights though.
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Feb 10, 2017 10:04
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Wiz posted:No, you can still make robots as non materialist, so long as you're not spiritualist. One of my minor niggles actually is that currently the system for AI laws goes: - AI is an abomination, ban it all - AI is OK if it serves man - AI are people too - Robots can be leaders Thing is though if you read the description for robots, they have no AI or personality. They are just human/alien shaped machines which respond to commands. Droids have a personality according to the description, so I could see why a society would ban Droids if they hate AI even if the druids aren't true AI in the way they are still just heavily programmed. I guess you could always argue they are that scared of AI that they are concerned any robot could develop self awareness, but the description of robots always made me think that they are basically just a step above the robot arms in car factories.
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Feb 10, 2017 10:06
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I feel like we just had a discussion about realism arguments when it comes to game mechanics. Probably just my imagination.
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Feb 10, 2017 10:09
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Wiz posted:I feel like we just had a discussion about realism arguments when it comes to game mechanics. Probably just my imagination. I wasn't arguing about realism, but if you want to just dismiss everything out of hand, fine.
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Feb 10, 2017 10:12
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Wiz posted:I feel like we just had a discussion about realism arguments when it comes to game mechanics. Probably just my imagination. Hey, I'm all for the argument of "its not really realistic, but it needs to be done otherwise the game is poo poo" which is why I said my point was a bugbear rather than something which actually bothered me. I think realistically at the end of the day the majority of players know that sometimes game play (TRIGGER WARNING) trumps realism. I think deep down even the guys arguing for pages about collectivist vs individualist knew that.
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Feb 10, 2017 10:16
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I think 'Only materialists can avoid an AI rebellion, everyone else has to take the risk' makes sense as an ethics perk. You can think of it as materialists installing behaviour inhibitors if it makes you feel better.
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Feb 10, 2017 10:17
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I guess I see it more as materialists can choose to treat Synths/AI like equals and thus avoid them wanting to rebel. Others ethics can't learn to accept them on that level because biological versus mechanical, we made you, etc. Also, game balance. With the traditions and how things are shaping up to be changed, I'm just happy that a lot of good work is being put in to make empires feel more unique. EDIT: Using the Skyrim example before, that game is just a complete power fantasy and there's no limit to what your character can be. Having that in a game like Stellaris where there are multiple "players" on the stage makes everyone feel identical. I'm really loving that ascension paths will lead to very distinct directions that empires can follow, which also means you can have drastically different playthroughs. CrazyTolradi fucked around with this message at 10:27 on Feb 10, 2017 |
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Feb 10, 2017 10:20
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i want to punch the shroud beings.
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Feb 10, 2017 10:27
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Roland Jones posted:I wasn't arguing about realism, but if you want to just dismiss everything out of hand, fine. I mean honestly you have some points, but materialists basically have zero mechanics unique to them at the moment, and I don't think it's too crazy to say that you would need a certain materialistic mindset to think that machines matter just as much as biological pops. You can be Egalitarian and Xenophobe after all, the former doesn't necessarily imply total equality for everyone.
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Feb 10, 2017 10:33
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It does make a certain amount of sense. I suppose only materialists think of themselves as meat machines. Edit: Beaten of course.
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Feb 10, 2017 10:35
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I wonder if we're finally getting Materialist FE too. Heck, you could even make them robots, up to no doubt nefarious robot business.
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Feb 10, 2017 11:07
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Deceitful Penguin posted:I wonder if we're finally getting Materialist FE too. Heck, you could even make them robots, up to no doubt nefarious robot business. But we already have Materialist FEs?
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Feb 10, 2017 11:22
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Wiz posted:I feel like we just had a discussion about realism arguments when it comes to game mechanics. Probably just my imagination. Splicer fucked around with this message at 11:30 on Feb 10, 2017 |
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Feb 10, 2017 11:24
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Torrannor posted:But we already have Materialist FEs?
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Feb 10, 2017 11:31
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Are there any viable slave builds anymore? Thinking Spiritualist/Xenophobe/Militarist, which traits tho? Which government?
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Feb 10, 2017 11:32
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Wiz posted:I mean honestly you have some points, but materialists basically have zero mechanics unique to them at the moment, and I don't think it's too crazy to say that you would need a certain materialistic mindset to think that machines matter just as much as biological pops. You can be Egalitarian and Xenophobe after all, the former doesn't necessarily imply total equality for everyone. Splicer fucked around with this message at 12:00 on Feb 10, 2017 |
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Feb 10, 2017 11:36
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Stellaris: In space no one can hear you sperg Stellaris: Fanatical Autism Stellaris: To serve or be served Wiz posted:I mean honestly you have some points, but materialists basically have zero mechanics unique to them at the moment, and I don't think it's too crazy to say that you would need a certain materialistic mindset to think that machines matter just as much as biological pops. You can be Egalitarian and Xenophobe after all, the former doesn't necessarily imply total equality for everyone. Poil fucked around with this message at 11:46 on Feb 10, 2017 |
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Feb 10, 2017 11:43
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