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Labour were unelectable under Miliband/New Labour, reasonably easy to vote for under Corbyn and are now back to being impossible to vote for now.
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Feb 10, 2017 12:33
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Zalakwe posted:Or MP. So far. It's a wonder no-one has given them anything better to get behind. MP sure, but it seems like people are really projecting when they see local council results and chalk it up to a single, completely unconnected issue I voted for my local councillor because of the government's stance on foreign aid, how about you!
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Feb 10, 2017 12:35
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Grouch posted:https://twitter.com/theobertram/status/829961986519728128 Nobody here has said anything about fake polls. Sounds like you're getting too involved in the Sensible Liberal/Telegraph columnist Twitter echochamber.
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Feb 10, 2017 12:40
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baka kaba posted:MP sure, but it seems like people are really projecting when they see local council results and chalk it up to a single, completely unconnected issue We don't get to see everything that happens on the ground I agree. People might be voting that way because some LD campaigned to save a local park or whatever. However people do vote for parties on national performance despite the fact they probably shouldn't (which is why the Labour brand being so broken at present should be a big concern for them) and there is an obvious pattern here - the Lib Dems are up quite a lot of seats since the Brexit vote. You don't get 20 odd 25%+ swings across the country without something deeper going on.
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Feb 10, 2017 12:41
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Feb 10, 2017 12:43
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BizarroAzrael posted:It might have been the worst thing he could have done in an impossible situation, yeah, how does one go from that to drawing the conclusion Labour will be worse for the NHS than people actively sabotaging it? They probably didn't used to until Corbyn came along.
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Feb 10, 2017 12:46
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I'm curious now about "climate change link to IS". That must have passed me by. 
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Feb 10, 2017 12:47
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They did set a bunch of oilfields on fire, that can't have been good for the climate. Then again most of it would have either been burned or turned into plastic anyway.
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Feb 10, 2017 12:49
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Laradus posted:I'm curious now about "climate change link to IS". That must have passed me by. There is a pretty good argument to be made for climate change being one of the factors that lead to the Syrian civil war
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Feb 10, 2017 12:51
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hakimashou posted:They probably didn't used to until Corbyn came along. Gonzo McFee posted:People trusted the NHS in David Cameron's hands more than they trusted it in Ed Miliband's. It's not new. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/dec/30/david-cameron-ed-miliband-trust-nhs-survey
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Feb 10, 2017 12:51
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Laradus posted:I'm curious now about "climate change link to IS". That must have passed me by. That's an actual thing - the Syrian civil war (which gave the Iraqi renegades who'd become IS their major lease on life) was partially motivated by too-dry weather causing a major famine that the government dealt with poorly. We're probably going to see a lot more examples in the coming years.
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Feb 10, 2017 12:51
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Thing with the three-line whip is it sets a strong official position for Labour (not denying the democratic vote) as a strategy to be more persuasive and win support, but it also puts it all on Corbyn's head I have no idea if he's planning for someone else taking over, but if there is a successor they could both benefit from that positioning as a party that isn't merely out to undermine the process, and also take a strong anti-brexit line as an individual who had the whip imposed on them Kind of a fine line but a lot of this vote was toxic, and Corbyn's absorbing a lot of that. He's not the kind of person to whip on things, so maybe that was part of his thinking when he got assertive on this strategy 🤔
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Feb 10, 2017 12:51
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Laradus posted:I'm curious now about "climate change link to IS". That must have passed me by. Drought and desertification in Syria helped drive instability and population shift to the cities, and hence the civil war. But there's a danger that over emphasising that aspect is an excuse to ignore the far more significant factors like decades of terrible government mismanaging resources and inflicting repressive measures on the populace.
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Feb 10, 2017 12:55
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Any anointed successor is going to have to contend with accusations of being a puppet for shadowy master Corbyn, a first term parliamentarian especially - the act of attempting to select a clear successor will be enough to rile people up. Lewis might have a chance in a leadership contest but I think his repeated loud support for a "progressive alliance" and support for an electoral pact with the Lib Dems and SNP could trip him up - still think Labour are a bit off from endorsing that
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Feb 10, 2017 12:59
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Yes, I have to admit my first thoughts were more on the government oppression side and I hadn't considered the contributing factors such as droughts. I appreciate the quick replies folks 
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Feb 10, 2017 13:00
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Zalakwe posted:However people do vote for parties on national performance Yes, but they do so under an FPTP system. People vote LibDem rather than Labour in Cornwall and the south west because historically that's the way to get the Tories out. They're slowly coming back here because the need to punish LibDems for their 2010 perfidy is now less strong than the need to get Tories out. It's not just entirely expected, it's also probably the only way Labour can get back into power.
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Feb 10, 2017 13:01
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There's also rapid population growth over recent decades, which would have eventually put farmland under pressure drought or not, but they both seem to be secondary to how the government actually dealt with the people moving en masse to the cities.
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Feb 10, 2017 13:02
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Gonzo McFee posted:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/dec/30/david-cameron-ed-miliband-trust-nhs-survey Milliband didn't strike me as very trustworthy and Cameron was as slick as butter, so not surprising.
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Feb 10, 2017 13:04
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kustomkarkommando posted:
I was thinking people seem to be really hyped up over Clive Lewis even though he's fairly inexperienced and an unknown quantity, then I remembered Owen Smith was a thing I don't know if Lewis even wants the job though. He was pretty negative about handling two frontbench portfolios and how he didn't have the experience to manage them both properly. He might not feel ready for such a big jump (if he even has the backing)
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Feb 10, 2017 13:08
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It's the real problem though. Regardless of how competent a politician or how their ideas would affect the situation it has to go through a filter of a press who are invested on there never being a left wing government. I'm not particularly attached to Corbyn anymore, I'll stick by him in leadership elections so long the alternative is some idiot talking about more flags and less foreigners, but regardless of who is running the Labour party they'll have to deal with a openly hostile press.
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Feb 10, 2017 13:10
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What's with all the talk of Clive Lewis challenging Corbyn, I thought there couldn't be another leadership competition until September? If there's to be an election any time soon it would have to be because Corbyn stepped down, in which case I don't suppose he would be in the running any more.
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Feb 10, 2017 13:12
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Bloops Crusts posted:American here. Just popping in because I don't understand your loving country and maybe one of you can explain it to me. Over here on this side of the pond, since the Trumpocalypse, the Democrats are rallying, there's protests in the streets, people are pissed. The liberal party is standing up to Trump like a solid phalanx, shoulder to shoulder and elbows locked. But every time I check on what's going on over there in the UK, come to find Labor's pissed it all away again. That's interesting because from where I'm standing, the Democrats look like they couldn't rub two dicks together at a porn shoot. The liberal party is standing up to Trump in the way that a gold fish stands up to a blue whale, fin to fin and oh poo poo your system doesn't support the idea of more than 2 big fish in the same pond. We've had protests too, chap.
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Feb 10, 2017 13:16
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Oh dear me posted:Yes, but they do so under an FPTP system. People vote LibDem rather than Labour in Cornwall and the south west because historically that's the way to get the Tories out. They're slowly coming back here because the need to punish LibDems for their 2010 perfidy is now less strong than the need to get Tories out. It's not just entirely expected, it's also probably the only way Labour can get back into power. Of course it isn't entirely unexpected. There are all sorts of forces at work, both tactical and local. However there is one BIG one, the sort that leads to 40% swings (at BEs, I doubt we would see that much at a GE). You see it in a lot of places outside Cornwall as evidenced above.
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Feb 10, 2017 13:18
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baka kaba posted:Thing with the three-line whip is it sets a strong official position for Labour (not denying the democratic vote) as a strategy to be more persuasive and win support, but it also puts it all on Corbyn's head This was my thinking as well, and goes along with the idea that Corbyn's purpose was to re-align the Labour party, not necessarily win the next general election.
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Feb 10, 2017 13:29
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big scary monsters posted:What's with all the talk of Clive Lewis challenging Corbyn, I thought there couldn't be another leadership competition until September? If there's to be an election any time soon it would have to be because Corbyn stepped down, in which case I don't suppose he would be in the running any more. I don't think its likely, I'm thinking more post-GE with Corbyn stepping aside and the ensuing ruck. A couple of years on the back benches might add some steel to Lewis. The mythical Jarvis run could also happen, who I also found out recently has submitted multiple written questions challenging legacy investigations in Northern Ireland in the last few weeks
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Feb 10, 2017 13:32
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Zalakwe posted:You see it in a lot of places outside Cornwall as evidenced above. You see it in places where LibDems were stronger than Labour before the Coalition, as evidenced above.
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Feb 10, 2017 13:40
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Sion posted:That's interesting because from where I'm standing, the Democrats look like they couldn't rub two dicks together at a porn shoot. The liberal party is standing up to Trump in the way that a gold fish stands up to a blue whale, fin to fin and oh poo poo your system doesn't support the idea of more than 2 big fish in the same pond. The difference is, Trump got to be president on basically a technicality, and only because Hillary, self indulgent vain idiot that she is, blew her campaign hardcore. It was a perfect storm of bad things falling juuuuuuust into place. Where as you guys keep voting in bigger Tory majorities and also voted for brexit. The pendulum will swing back to the good guys here sooner or later, just like it did after Bush. But brexit is a bell you poor souls cannot unring.
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Feb 10, 2017 13:43
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Who the gently caress are "you guys"? I'm not taking any responsibility for what my other country people do when I specifically voted the opposite way. hakimashou posted:The pendulum will swing back to the good guys here sooner or later, just like it did after Bush. But brexit is a bell you poor souls cannot unring. Yeah see poo poo like this would make more sense if we'd all voted for it.
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Feb 10, 2017 13:45
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Gonzo McFee posted:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/dec/30/david-cameron-ed-miliband-trust-nhs-survey Its also just the papers don't report the on going Tory project to quietly kill the NHS, most of them for obvious reasons but then you've even got the guardian who run stories like Jeremy hunt criticizing the NHS without the headline or much of the story addressing the fact that he has been bullish about loving the NHS in full sight of everybody for years now. This is another problem with our journalism, the guardian, being maybe the only half reasonable paper in the country, just never uses context in its stories, they all appear in a vacuum. It's like when he guardian got really into charting Goldman Sachs executives who had taken over top positions in European countries and what this meant then started fluffing Mark Carney without ever mentioning he's a Sachs man too.
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Feb 10, 2017 13:49
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hakimashou posted:The difference is, Trump got to be president on basically a technicality, and only because Hillary, self indulgent vain idiot that she is, blew her campaign hardcore. It was a perfect storm of bad things falling juuuuuuust into place. lol at thinking the Democrats are good guys, and not the not-cartoon-villain guys. Bigger lol at thinking you're going to have real elections in America under Trump. He's already laying the foundations for massive voter suppression with his 3-5 million illegal voters poo poo.
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Feb 10, 2017 13:49
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Baron Corbyn posted:lol at thinking the Democrats are good guys, and not the not-cartoon-villain guys. Bigger lol at thinking you're going to have real elections in America under Trump. He's already laying the foundations for massive voter suppression with his 3-5 million illegal voters poo poo. First it was Bush gonna fix all the elections with Diebold, then it was Obama gonna declare martial, now it's Trump gonna end elections... I'm not about to start buying into the hysteria, I lived through the Bush years, and dark as it was, it turned out not to be the end of the world. I'm sick to death over what this orange abomination is doing to debase our great nation, but I'm not a college kid anymore so the hysterics seem a little droll. Anyway if you can't figure out that the Democrats are the goods guys in American politics, and you're not a right winger, you've lost touch with reality. But it wouldn't be unfair even a little bit to say that the folks who reelected Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the Labour Party, after the brexit referendum no less, have lost touch with reality in a big way. I don't think I've ever been more relieved to have been born on this side of the Atlantic. hakimashou fucked around with this message at 14:00 on Feb 10, 2017 |
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Feb 10, 2017 13:57
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Regarde Aduck posted:Who the gently caress are "you guys"? Who wasnt allowed to vote in the brexit referendum?
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Feb 10, 2017 13:58
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hakimashou posted:Anyway if you can't figure out that the Democrats are the goods guys in American politics, and you're not a right winger, you've lost touch with reality. Lesser of two evils is still loving evil. Just not quite as evil.
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Feb 10, 2017 14:04
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Good to see that American liberals have been so thoroughly humiliated that they find it easier to defend the Democrats and attack the far-left from the refuge of British politics.
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Feb 10, 2017 14:05
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nopantsjack posted:Its also just the papers don't report the on going Tory project to quietly kill the NHS, most of them for obvious reasons but then you've even got the guardian who run stories like Jeremy hunt criticizing the NHS without the headline or much of the story addressing the fact that he has been bullish about loving the NHS in full sight of everybody for years now. Reporting politics like it's a sport is also a huge problem.
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Feb 10, 2017 14:07
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Alertrelic posted:Good to see that American liberals have been so thoroughly humiliated that they find it easier to defend the Democrats and attack the far-left from the refuge of British politics. Civilization itself was humiliated on Election Day. The light of the world has dimmed 
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Feb 10, 2017 14:08
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hakimashou posted:Civilization itself was humiliated on Election Day. The light of the world has dimmed Good job w/ that, septic.
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Feb 10, 2017 14:10
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What are you guys gonna do if it turns out that Britain has become just well and truly anti-immigrant anyway? Like if no party that isn't hostile to immigration can win?
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Feb 10, 2017 14:12
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hakimashou posted:Civilization itself was humiliated on Election Day. The light of the world has dimmed We are number one but every one keeps voting for right wingers
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Feb 10, 2017 14:13
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hakimashou posted:Civilization itself was humiliated on Election Day. The light of the world has dimmed lol you keep telling yourself that champ.
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