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Frankly I struggle to come up with a reaction towards "unions are a permanently dead concept that nobody likes" that doesn't involve me rolling my eyes so hard they detach from their socketsISeeCuckedPeople posted:Meanwhile in the real world. There's actually a pretty interesting conversation to have regarding the GOP's slow and steady erosion of labor rights in the last several decades. There's also cool stuff to talk about regarding unions being one of the best representatives of minorities and the working class out there. Note that none of those two discussions at all involve the concept that unions should not exist because it's a monumentally stupid idea that capitulates to conservative rhetoric, offers no solutions to any problems, and denigrates disadvantaged groups that rely on and/or support union activities
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Feb 10, 2017 18:52
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Brainiac Five posted:Characterizing a Jewish person as a phony infiltrator attempting to hijack politics from real Americans is sketchy. So is using terms like "donor class", and singling out Jewish people as exemplars of this "donor class" that apparently is distinct from the bourgeoisie. There are perfectly innocent explanations, I am sure, but y'all can't control your fool mouths for long enough to throw some bloodthirstiness at auto execs alongside "unmanly" industries like finance and entertainment. That's a really disgusting way to defend Haim Saban. Really beyond the pale.
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Feb 10, 2017 18:53
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Cease to Hope posted:Obama hasn't endorsed Perez. oops, thought i remember reading that. oh well. "former obama cabinet member"
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Feb 10, 2017 18:55
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Chelb posted:Frankly I struggle to come up with a reaction towards "unions are a permanently dead concept that nobody likes" that doesn't involve me rolling my eyes so hard they detach from their sockets You are putting words in my mouth. No one said unions shouldn't exist. But fighting for unions and their rights at this point is an unwinnable war
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Feb 10, 2017 18:55
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RaySmuckles posted:oops, thought i remember reading that. oh well. It's understandable, both because of that and because Biden endorsed Perez.
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Feb 10, 2017 18:56
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:You are putting words in my mouth. No one said unions shouldn't exist. But fighting for unions and their rights at this point is an unwinnable war It's, not?
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Feb 10, 2017 18:56
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:You are putting words in my mouth. No one said unions shouldn't exist. But fighting for unions and their rights at this point is an unwinnable war Hard disagree here, bud. "Unwinnable"? Have you seen the historical conditions that unions were founded in? Cease to Hope posted:It's understandable, both because of that and because Biden endorsed Perez. Also Obama basically did a "Perez is a great guy, wonderful, top notch, definitely a sweet rear end dude but I'm not giving him the *offical* thumbs up, know what I'm saying?"
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Feb 10, 2017 18:57
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Fiction posted:Hey, as an anti-Zionist Jew, go gently caress yourself for this argument. Many of us are very unhappy with the stranglehold that wealthy people have on Democratic politics and it has nothing to do with being Jewish or unmanly or something insane like that. I'm sorry you're unaware that there are more rich people than financiers and entertainment industry people, and that they donate money and shape politics via their wealth-generated power, such that you merely run up against antisemitic stereotyping due to your fetishization of loving ConAgra and GE and Lockheed Martin as more innocent than the guy who brought over Power Rangers. I hope you become smarter and less ignorant in the future, such that you can successfully criticize the role of wealth in American politics.
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Feb 10, 2017 18:58
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Cease to Hope posted:It's understandable, both because of that and because Biden endorsed Perez. ah, it was biden. i'll try to remember that in the future. thanks for the heads up
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Feb 10, 2017 18:59
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Brainiac Five posted:Characterizing a Jewish person as a phony infiltrator attempting to hijack politics from real Americans is sketchy. So is using terms like "donor class", and singling out Jewish people as exemplars of this "donor class" that apparently is distinct from the bourgeoisie. There are perfectly innocent explanations, I am sure, but y'all can't control your fool mouths for long enough to throw some bloodthirstiness at auto execs alongside "unmanly" industries like finance and entertainment. Well his single issue is unquestioning welfare for Israel. Maybe that welfare could be spent on the American people. He gets listened to though because he has money while those wanting say free college that we could spend money on are ignored. That is wrong. Sorry to see you support silencing so many. But that is the nature of Maoists.
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Feb 10, 2017 18:59
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Brainiac Five posted:Characterizing a Jewish person as a phony infiltrator attempting to hijack politics from real Americans is sketchy. So is using terms like "donor class", and singling out Jewish people as exemplars of this "donor class" that apparently is distinct from the bourgeoisie. There are perfectly innocent explanations, I am sure, but y'all can't control your fool mouths for long enough to throw some bloodthirstiness at auto execs alongside "unmanly" industries like finance and entertainment. lol Saban is a guy who has repeatedly and openly declared his intent to use his wealth to steer political discourse towards his pet issue. Stop smearing opponents of this rear end in a top hat as anti-semites.
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Feb 10, 2017 18:59
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Brainiac Five posted:I'm sorry you're unaware that there are more rich people than financiers and entertainment industry people, and that they donate money and shape politics via their wealth-generated power, such that you merely run up against antisemitic stereotyping due to your fetishization of loving ConAgra and GE and Lockheed Martin as more innocent than the guy who brought over Power Rangers. I hope you become smarter and less ignorant in the future, such that you can successfully criticize the role of wealth in American politics. Please stop, this is really grotesque and upsetting.
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Feb 10, 2017 18:59
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Haim Saban personally condemned Ellison, something ConAgra and GE executives did not.
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Feb 10, 2017 19:00
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Brainiac Five posted:I'm sorry you're unaware that there are more rich people than financiers and entertainment industry people, and that they donate money and shape politics via their wealth-generated power, such that you merely run up against antisemitic stereotyping due to your fetishization of loving ConAgra and GE and Lockheed Martin as more innocent than the guy who brought over Power Rangers. I hope you become smarter and less ignorant in the future, such that you can successfully criticize the role of wealth in American politics. He's just a pretty good example of why the political system is hosed up. But thank you for your word salad based entirely on assumptions about me.
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Feb 10, 2017 19:01
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Insisting that it's Jewish Zionists who control American foreign policy concerning Israel more than the MIC and various Gentile imperialists is also very telling.
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Feb 10, 2017 19:02
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Brainiac Five posted:Insisting that it's Jewish Zionists who control American foreign policy concerning Israel more than the MIC and various Gentile imperialists is also very telling. Literally no one said this. Please stop.
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Feb 10, 2017 19:05
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Brainiac Five posted:Insisting that it's Jewish Zionists who control American foreign policy concerning Israel more than the MIC and various Gentile imperialists is also very telling. It's more telling that you want to silence people like a typical Maoist would. Also maybe we'd rather not be spending money on the Middle East. I know that angers you Maoist. Has anyone ever figured out how much money Lowtax makes from people who keep paying off their bans?
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Feb 10, 2017 19:05
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Brainiac Five posted:Insisting that it's Jewish Zionists who control American foreign policy concerning Israel more than the MIC and various Gentile imperialists is also very telling. He was the one who came out and tried to bloody Ellison's nose in the most politically dishonest way possible. It's telling of how I feel about the DNC race and nothing else.
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Feb 10, 2017 19:05
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Brainiac Five posted:Insisting that it's Jewish Zionists who control American foreign policy concerning Israel more than the MIC and various Gentile imperialists is also very telling. you should take this discussion to a different thread. its a lovely derail. does anyone have any actual numbers on the race or is it all supposition and hearsay so far?
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Feb 10, 2017 19:05
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Cease to Hope posted:Haim Saban personally condemned Ellison, something ConAgra and GE executives did not. A shame people extended that to "Saban is a fake American and the most relevant example of wealth corrupting politics", then.
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Feb 10, 2017 19:05
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Brainiac Five posted:A shame people extended that to "Saban is a fake American and the most relevant example of wealth corrupting politics", then. No one said this, either.
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Feb 10, 2017 19:06
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:You are putting words in my mouth. No one said unions shouldn't exist. But fighting for unions and their rights at this point is an unwinnable war Distilling all this down to realpolitik is kinda gross imo. Union's rights are worker's rights, and to abandon unions is to abandon a now historically smaller but still important resource for dems to fundraise, organize, and support minority work issues. To put this in perspective, the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, the largest trade union of public employees in the U.S., is one of the Democratic Party's largest supporters on a financial level. They were Bill Clinton's biggest donor! You can't abandon unions without abandoning the financial and political structures that unions utilize. You can't abandon unions without abandoning the Democratic Party. But regardless I'd be pretty interested to hear what alternatives you might have towards safeguarding workers rights in a political environment where any dem proposal toward that effect would get shot down immediately anyway.
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Feb 10, 2017 19:09
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Periodiko posted:No one said this, either. There's this little concept called "implications". When you set a dividing line between "voters" and "Haim Saban", you are implying the latter is not a legitimate member of American society. When you insist Saban is just an example and so there's nothing sketchy about constant references to him, you are implying he is the most relevant example. I hope this lesson in high-school English has illuminated you.
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Feb 10, 2017 19:11
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Brainiac Five posted:There's this little concept called "implications". When you set a dividing line between "voters" and "Haim Saban", you are implying the latter is not a legitimate member of American society. When you insist Saban is just an example and so there's nothing sketchy about constant references to him, you are implying he is the most relevant example. I hope this lesson in high-school English has illuminated you. He is the most relevant example of a donor getting too big for his britches and trying to strongarm the party into doing what he wants in the election this thread is about. Hope this helps.
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Feb 10, 2017 19:14
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Fiction posted:He is the most relevant example of a donor getting too big for his britches and trying to strongarm the party into doing what he wants in the election this thread is about. Hope this helps. Would you, perhaps, describe him as "uppity"?
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Feb 10, 2017 19:17
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Brainiac Five posted:Would you, perhaps, describe him as "uppity"? Nah I'd describe him as one of the only donors who in broad daylight tried to smear one of his political opponents as an anti-Semite (despite the fact that many Jews are backing him) because he wouldn't give Israel the tongue-bath that's apparently required to become a Democrat.
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Feb 10, 2017 19:18
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Brainiac Five, how do you feel about the ADL accusing Ellison of anti-Semitism? Do you feel that Ellison did indeed invoke "the specter of age-old stereotypes about Jewish control of our government"?
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Feb 10, 2017 19:20
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Brainiac Five posted:Would you, perhaps, describe him as "uppity"? its nice you're coming to the defense of a helpless multi-millionaire who tried to paint a candidate for the DNC chair as an anti-semite (wrongly). who will defend this poor, old influence maker playing politics on a level you and i can only dream about!? come the gently caress on
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Feb 10, 2017 19:20
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Here are some more union facts: The Service Employees International Union raised 50 million dollars and spent 55 million bucks in 2016, and virtually exclusively supported Dems. The AFSCME raised and spent 24 million dollars, also for the Dems. Abandoning unions would destroy the Democratic Party. So Perez, as an operator within the Democratic Party, is good to support them.
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Feb 10, 2017 19:21
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Fiction posted:Nah I'd describe him as one of the only donors who in broad daylight tried to smear one of his political opponents as an anti-Semite (despite the fact that many Jews are backing him) because he wouldn't give Israel the tongue-bath that's apparently required to become a Democrat. Ah, so he's deceitful, possibly even congenitally a liar, given that he attempted to claim someone was antisemitic when Jewish people liked them, since as we all loving know antisemitism is defined as "Jewish people disliking you," you schmuck. I do like the vast Zionist conspiracy implied by this belief of yours, where no Zionist actually conflates support for Palestine with antisemitism, but it's all a malicious web of slanders.
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Feb 10, 2017 19:22
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Cease to Hope posted:Brainiac Five, how do you feel about the ADL accusing Ellison of anti-Semitism? Do you feel that Ellison did indeed invoke "the specter of age-old stereotypes about Jewish control of our government"? I support Ellison, so your gotcha is really loving bizarre. It's almost as if, like the ADL, you conflate criticism with hatred.
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Feb 10, 2017 19:23
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Brainiac Five posted:I support Ellison, so your gotcha is really loving bizarre. It's almost as if, like the ADL, you conflate criticism with hatred. I am highlighting the similarities between an argument you clearly reject and your own accusations. Nobody's pulling Haim Saban out of the air; he decided to involve himself in the race.
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Feb 10, 2017 19:27
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Cease to Hope posted:I am highlighting the similarities between an argument you clearly reject and your own accusations. Nobody's pulling Haim Saban out of the air; he decided to involve himself in the race. Which of course justifies everything up to and including Crowsbeak's verbal vomit. Involve yourself in politics and you are no longer a real American.
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Feb 10, 2017 19:31
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Brainiac Five posted:I do like the vast Zionist conspiracy implied by this belief of yours, where no Zionist actually conflates support for Palestine with antisemitism, but it's all a malicious web of slanders. Huh? I'm just saying prominent conservative Democrats who support Israel love to trot out accusations of anti-Semitism when it comes to critics of Israel despite the fact that the Jewish population in America is increasingly at odds with that viewpoint.
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Feb 10, 2017 19:34
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brainic 5, i gotta hand it to you, not everyone one can kill a thread with as much inane bullshit and frustratingly pointless derails as you. here we are where you are now furiously trying to falsely paint another poster as an anti-Semite in an attempt to drive the discussion away from the valid criticism of a donor failing to paint ellison as an anti-semite. look, i'm actually supporting perez, so its ok that i think he's obviously just waiting to cave in to orders from above and represents virtually no change from the current course for the DNC, how money is raised, and how its distributed. like, i support him, so i can say he's a centrist puppet parading around as an equal to ellison despite having literally zero campaign experience and backing the losing horse last election. since he's my candidate i can safely say that his support from influential figures like former vice-president biden is an obvious attempt to split the ticket and that he represents an obvious continuation of the status quo, which by the way, is utter poo poo and has lead to the democrats losing handily for decades and recently saw the election Donald Trump over the unbeatable, yet always defeated, Hillary Clinton. since my candidate is perez, i can point out that the current managers of the democratic party are going to fight to the death to hold power away from anyone who wants to actually change the party. sure there will be some "capitulators" like schumer and pelosi who will publicly bend the knee, but they will surely maintain their positions of power and use them against the left at the first opportune moment.
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Feb 10, 2017 19:35
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"Involving yourself in politics" is not the same as "using your ill-gotten riches to unduly influence politics in your favor," which is where 99% of political activity actually stems from in America. It's not unique to Haim Saban but he got himself involved very publicly in away that many people have had enough of.
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Feb 10, 2017 19:35
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I don't think it's necessarily unfair to say that criticism of wealthy Jewish individuals can sometimes take on implicit tones and tenors of antisemitism, and I think those implications can at least seem to be present when the concept of wealth corrupting politics is brought up and a Jewish guy is the first name to appear. Obviously Saban has some relevance irt large-scale political donors and as an example of unfair criticism of Ellison, but a post like this:Fiction posted:I grasp it well. I'm saying I and people like me trust Ellison more than Perez to play the game in a way that actually reflects how voters feel, and not how Haim Saban feels. just strikes me as rather disrespectful of Perez as a human being with personal autonomy, who (as far as I know!) has not been vocally supported by Saban.
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Feb 10, 2017 19:37
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Brainiac Five posted:Which of course justifies everything up to and including Crowsbeak's verbal vomit. Involve yourself in politics and you are no longer a real American. I have Crowsbeak on ignore. If he's shitposting that badly, report him. Haim Saban is an American, but he's also intervened to accuse Ellison - based on laughably thin evidence - of being an anti-Semite, when Ellison just happens to be campaigning on limiting the influence of high-dollar individual donors to the DNC. It's fair to criticize Saban for this! It's a transparently self-interested political move on Saban's part.
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Feb 10, 2017 19:39
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Chelb posted:just strikes me as rather disrespectful of Perez as a human being with personal autonomy, who (as far as I know!) has not been vocally supported by Saban. I'm basing it on his record of lacking said personal autonomy, so I don't think it's unfair to him to insinuate.
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Feb 10, 2017 19:39
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Im still not sure how backing Clinton is disqualifing, but backing a dude who couldn't win a primary isn't.
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Feb 10, 2017 19:40
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