UKMT February 2017 - Welcome to Tiny Train World

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Panama Red: Jul 30, 2003; Only in America could you find a way to earn a healthy buck and still keep your attitude on self destruct

Not British so just relying on headlines, but it seems with the poor polling Jezza's days are numbered, and a loss in Stoke and/or Copeland could knock him out. What's so depressing is that if he were to go, there's still going to be this huge gap between the interests of the soapy liberal left in Brighton Pavilion and Bristol West versus the working class voters in the inner cities. Replacing Corbyn with the British equivalent of Hillary Clinton isn't going to unify the party.

# ? Feb 13, 2017 16:30

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# ? May 10, 2024 19:39

Communist Thoughts: Jan 7, 2008; Our war against free speech cannot end until we silence this bronze beast!

The UK is done for and we deserve it.

# ? Feb 13, 2017 16:40

Spangly A: May 14, 2009; God help you if ever you're caught on these shores

A man's ambition must indeed be small
To write his name upon a shithouse wall

Panama Red posted:

Not British so just relying on headlines, but it seems with the poor polling Jezza's days are numbered, and a loss in Stoke and/or Copeland could knock him out. What's so depressing is that if he were to go, there's still going to be this huge gap between the interests of the soapy liberal left in Brighton Pavilion and Bristol West versus the working class voters in the inner cities. Replacing Corbyn with the British equivalent of Hillary Clinton isn't going to unify the party.

Nah this has been going on 2 years and there's not a chance Corbyn's done. As long as he can stand in leadership elections as leader he'll win in a landslide every time.

This will only be a problem when there's a genuine left wing alternative to be considered.

# ? Feb 13, 2017 16:41

spectralent: Oct 1, 2014; Me and the boys poppin' down to the shops

Panama Red posted:

Not British so just relying on headlines, but it seems with the poor polling Jezza's days are numbered, and a loss in Stoke and/or Copeland could knock him out. What's so depressing is that if he were to go, there's still going to be this huge gap between the interests of the soapy liberal left in Brighton Pavilion and Bristol West versus the working class voters in the inner cities. Replacing Corbyn with the British equivalent of Hillary Clinton isn't going to unify the party.

I'm in Brighton and last time I went to a meeting everyone was really pro-Corbyn. Of course, this was before january.

# ? Feb 13, 2017 17:13

Panama Red: Jul 30, 2003; Only in America could you find a way to earn a healthy buck and still keep your attitude on self destruct

It's been 67 consecutive polls of the Tories up in front of Labour. The mini-revolt and Clive Lewis' resignation over Article 50 have only kept the anti-Corbyn movement buzzing. And if Labour loses in Stoke or Copeland, it would be the first time the Government won a seat from the opposition in a by-election for 35 years.

Now there are reports of focus groups within the party looking at potential succession candidates, like Angela Rayner or Rebecca Long-Bailey, as lefty candidates in a future leadership race: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...y-a7576611.html

I honestly wouldn't blame Corbyn if he just wants to give it up. He won two races in blow-outs and the right-wingers still won't give him a chance. And it fits their fairy-tale narrative that he's the only thing wrong with the party.

# ? Feb 13, 2017 17:15

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

For him to go properly the party needs to put someone else up that appeals to the membership and unless something's changed suddenly the membership probably still doesn't like any of the centrist suits they tried last time.

# ? Feb 13, 2017 17:19

MikeCrotch: Nov 5, 2011; I AM UNJUSTIFIABLY PROUD OF MY SPAGHETTI BOLOGNESE RECIPE

YES, IT IS AN INCREDIBLY SIMPLE DISH

NO, IT IS NOT NORMAL TO USE A PEPPERAMI INSTEAD OF MINCED MEAT

YES, THERE IS TOO MUCH SALT IN MY RECIPE

NO, I WON'T STOP SHARING IT

more like BOLLOCKnese

It's weird, for the first time people in the party seem really angry at Corbyn, since a lot of his supporters were also die hard Remain supporters. We are discussing the recent A50 vote at my CLP meeting tonight so we will see what the tone is.

However actual talk about deposing Corbyn is pretty much nowhere to be found. I think most people on the left and right of the party just want a year to get on with stuff and not waste time on another leadership election that honestly, Corbyn would still probably win. If Clive Lewis ran right now then he might have a chance but I don't think he dislikes Corbyn enough to do it and he by all means would not guaranteedly win. No-one else seems close. The anger over the A50 vote seems to be dying by the day as well, especially with the evidence that Labour voters are not as pro-Remain as originally thought.

I think it's definitely put a timeline on Corbyn's departure though, I can't realistically see him getting to 2020.

As for the by-elections I think Labour will win Stoke and lose Copeland. The Tories have completely thrown their lot in with the Kippers (UKIP aren't running a candidate in Copeland and the Tories are running a complete nobody in Stoke) and are reaping the short term rewards of the country willfully descending into fascism as long it means less brown people.

# ? Feb 13, 2017 17:23

DesperateDan: Dec 10, 2005; Where's my cow?

Is that my cow?

No it isn't, but it still tramples my bloody lavender.

HJB posted:

Okay:

thanks comrade!

Panama Red posted:

Not British so just relying on headlines

Most British people just do that anyway, it's quite problematic when the media lie continually tbh

# ? Feb 13, 2017 17:27

Paxman: Feb 7, 2010

Panama Red posted:

It's been 67 consecutive polls of the Tories up in front of Labour. The mini-revolt and Clive Lewis' resignation over Article 50 have only kept the anti-Corbyn movement buzzing. And if Labour loses in Stoke or Copeland, it would be the first time the Government won a seat from the opposition in a by-election for 35 years.

Now there are reports of focus groups within the party looking at potential succession candidates, like Angela Rayner or Rebecca Long-Bailey, as lefty candidates in a future leadership race: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...y-a7576611.html

I honestly wouldn't blame Corbyn if he just wants to give it up. He won two races in blow-outs and the right-wingers still won't give him a chance. And it fits their fairy-tale narrative that he's the only thing wrong with the party.

I don't agree that the Labour right claims Corbyn is the only thing wrong with the party. For example, there's plenty of talk on the right about how many working people lost out as a result of globalisation and New Labour basically compensated them with extra public spending and tax credits, but this just suppressed a growing feeling of anger and disconnect with the Labour Party, which then grew significantly after the banking crisis and the spending was cut.

There's also a lot of talk about Labour supposedly losing touch with working class culture - or at least being perceived that way - which is apparently patriotic and socially pretty conservative. The old alliance between progressive middle classes and the working class is in danger of breaking down apparently. (People like Jon Cruddas and Liam Byrne have written about this).

Now these arguments may or may not be dumb but they were being made before Corbyn became leader - probably beginning from while Ed Miliband was leader - and nobody's saying he caused these problems, though he certainly hasn't solved them (the Blairites have no idea how to solve them either).

# ? Feb 13, 2017 17:41

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

Paxman posted:

I don't agree that the Labour right claims Corbyn is the only thing wrong with the party. For example, there's plenty of talk on the right about how many working people lost out as a result of globalisation and New Labour basically compensated them with extra public spending and tax credits, but this just suppressed a growing feeling of anger and disconnect with the Labour Party, which then grew significantly after the banking crisis and the spending was cut.

There's also a lot of talk about Labour supposedly losing touch with working class culture - or at least being perceived that way - which is apparently patriotic and socially pretty conservative. The old alliance between progressive middle classes and the working class is in danger of breaking down apparently. (People like Jon Cruddas and Liam Byrne have written about this).

Now these arguments may or may not be dumb but they were being made before Corbyn became leader - probably beginning from while Ed Miliband was leader - and nobody's saying he caused these problems, though he certainly hasn't solved them (the Blairites have no idea how to solve them either).

Also a lot of their councillors in the north are shite but that is councillors for you

# ? Feb 13, 2017 17:45

mehall: Aug 27, 2010

Ultimate test of Labour centrist policy

http://labourlist.org/2017/02/kezia-dugdale-we-need-to-create-a-federalised-britain/

Not picking a side, trying to find something in the middle in the hopes it might come together in enough of the minds of the electorate

# ? Feb 13, 2017 18:05

Nothingtoseehere: Nov 11, 2010

jBrereton posted:

Also a lot of their councillors are shite but that is councillors for you

Fixed

# ? Feb 13, 2017 18:12

Apraxin: Feb 22, 2006; General-Admiral

jBrereton posted:

Also a lot of their councillors in the north are shite but that is councillors for you

Speaking of: Labour's Stoke Byelection Candidate Apologises for Offensive Tweets Aimed at Women

quote:

Gareth Snell described panellists on ITV�s Loose Women as �squabbling sour-faced ladies�, called presenter Janet Street-Porter a �polished turd� and said a �speccy blonde girl� on BBC�s The Apprentice should �piss off�, in comments highlighted by the Guido Fawkes website. ... A former leader of Newcastle-under-Lyme borough council, Snell has previously caused controversy with online comments describing party leader Jeremy Corbyn as an �IRA-supporting friend of Hamas� and denouncing Brexit as a �massive pile of poo poo�.

What a great candidate.

# ? Feb 13, 2017 18:14

Quincey: Feb 14, 2012

It is ironic to hear of UKIP complaining about distasteful comments though, considering some of the ones their members have made.

# ? Feb 13, 2017 18:17

Private Speech: Mar 30, 2011; I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.

Quincey posted:

It is ironic to hear of UKIP complaining about distasteful comments though, considering ~~some~~ most of the ones their members have made.

# ? Feb 13, 2017 18:24

Fangz: Jul 5, 2007; Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!

Yeah UKIP is having the time of their lives

quote:

A Ukip spokesman said: �The Labour candidate is in danger of coming across as a foul-mouthed young man with a lot of growing up still to do.

�The people of Stoke-on-Trent Central clearly deserve much better than this to represent them in the House of Commons.

�They deserve a seasoned, grown-up political figure who will treat them with respect and set out their concerns in more eloquent and thoughtful fashion.�

# ? Feb 13, 2017 18:25

Lord of the Llamas: Jul 9, 2002; EULER'VE TO SEE IT VENN SOMEONE CALLS IT THE WRONG THING AND PROVOKES MY WRATH

MikeCrotch posted:

It's weird, for the first time people in the party seem really angry at Corbyn, since a lot of his supporters were also die hard Remain supporters. We are discussing the recent A50 vote at my CLP meeting tonight so we will see what the tone is.

However actual talk about deposing Corbyn is pretty much nowhere to be found. I think most people on the left and right of the party just want a year to get on with stuff and not waste time on another leadership election that honestly, Corbyn would still probably win. If Clive Lewis ran right now then he might have a chance but I don't think he dislikes Corbyn enough to do it and he by all means would not guaranteedly win. No-one else seems close. The anger over the A50 vote seems to be dying by the day as well, especially with the evidence that Labour voters are not as pro-Remain as originally thought.

I think it's definitely put a timeline on Corbyn's departure though, I can't realistically see him getting to 2020.

As for the by-elections I think Labour will win Stoke and lose Copeland. The Tories have completely thrown their lot in with the Kippers (UKIP aren't running a candidate in Copeland and the Tories are running a complete nobody in Stoke) and are reaping the short term rewards of the country willfully descending into fascism as long it means less brown people.

UKIP aren't running in Copeland?

https://twitter.com/Fiona__Mills/status/830926476530827264

# ? Feb 13, 2017 18:26

Panama Red: Jul 30, 2003; Only in America could you find a way to earn a healthy buck and still keep your attitude on self destruct

Yeah, she's the UKIP candidate in Copeland, and she's a real charmer too:

MikeCrotch posted:

It's weird, for the first time people in the party seem really angry at Corbyn, since a lot of his supporters were also die hard Remain supporters. We are discussing the recent A50 vote at my CLP meeting tonight so we will see what the tone is.

Please do report back. I'd also love to hear from other posters who go to CLP meetings what the climate seems to be, especially in the run-up to the byelections.

Panama Red fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Feb 13, 2017

# ? Feb 13, 2017 18:34

Zephro: Nov 23, 2000; I suppose I could part with one and still be feared...

JFairfax posted:

are you kidding me? A 2lb bag of lentils, 2 tins of tomatos, an onion, garlic, chile + spuds and some spices will feed you for a week.

okay yes the spices will be more expensive, but they last months.

it's a lie that only unhealthy foods are cheap.

making curries, stews, soups is v. cheap and v. easy if you're just using vegetables. you can do it in one pot with barely any skills.

This is actually true. A lot ofJack Monroe's "how to feed yourself and your kid for £10 a week" recipes are variants on this basic idea. Also cooking something like a stew is really really easy (chop food, put in saucepan, pour in stock, add barley, simmer for an hour is literally how you make veggie stew; if you want to add meat cook that first). People just need to be taught this stuff, and not just poor people either, ready meals are poo poo and unhealthy and will make you fat and set you up to die early

# ? Feb 13, 2017 18:41

Spangly A: May 14, 2009; God help you if ever you're caught on these shores

A man's ambition must indeed be small
To write his name upon a shithouse wall

Fangz posted:

Yeah UKIP is having the time of their lives

honestly poo poo like this doesn't deserve a non violent response

the only appropriate response to the far right calling people foul mouthed is to beat them half to death and make them eat dogshit

# ? Feb 13, 2017 18:44

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

Apraxin posted:

Speaking of: Labour's Stoke Byelection Candidate Apologises for Offensive Tweets Aimed at Women

What a great candidate.

How did that guy even get through the first stages of selection lol

# ? Feb 13, 2017 18:49

Spangly A: May 14, 2009; God help you if ever you're caught on these shores

A man's ambition must indeed be small
To write his name upon a shithouse wall

I've never said anything abusive I wouldn't double down on, vote spang

# ? Feb 13, 2017 18:49

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

Panama Red posted:

Yeah, she's the UKIP candidate in Copeland, and she's a real charmer too:

The D was not for Democratic you gently caress :eng99:

I can see why they wouldn't want to draw attention to parties making a big deal about nations tho.

Slightly curious about what Hitler said in 1927 that sounds a lot like the modern left.

# ? Feb 13, 2017 19:05

mehall: Aug 27, 2010

Guavanaut posted:

The D was not for Democratic you gently caress

I can see why they wouldn't want to draw attention to parties making a big deal about nations tho.

Slightly curious about what Hitler said in 1927 that sounds a lot like the modern left.

Don't you know about the anti-semitism Labour definitely have, that no other party does?

# ? Feb 13, 2017 19:09

ShaneMacGowansTeeth: May 22, 2007; I think this is it... I think this is how it ends

Guavanaut posted:

The D was not for Democratic you gently caress

I can see why they wouldn't want to draw attention to parties making a big deal about nations tho.

Slightly curious about what Hitler said in 1927 that sounds a lot like the modern left.

I tried trawling through the original tweeter's feed, but after a stream of LEFTY CAPITALIST TRAITOR LIBERALISM, I just thought "I am not bothering with this". Interestingly, said UKIPer has deleted said tweet

# ? Feb 13, 2017 19:24

Fangz: Jul 5, 2007; Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!

Guavanaut posted:

The D was not for Democratic you gently caress

I can see why they wouldn't want to draw attention to parties making a big deal about nations tho.

Slightly curious about what Hitler said in 1927 that sounds a lot like the modern left.

They misattributed a quote from Gregor Strasser who was a left wing rival of Hitler's within the early Nazi party.

https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Gregor_Strasser

quote:

We are Socialists, enemies, mortal enemies of the present capitalist economic system with its exploitation of the economically weak, with its injustice in wages, with its immoral evaluation of individuals according to wealth and money instead of responsibility and achievement, and we are determined under all circumstances to abolish this system! And with my inclination to practical action it seems obvious to me that we have to put a better, more just, more moral system in its place, one which, as it were, has arms and legs and better arms and legs than the present one!

Resigned from the party in 1932, Hitler had him killed during the Night of the Long Knives.

# ? Feb 13, 2017 19:28

Private Speech: Mar 30, 2011; I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.

Strasserists are still full-on nazis though, just with more emphasis on "wealthy sniggering capitalist jews" rather than "wealthy sniggering capitalist jews" like ordinary nazis.

# ? Feb 13, 2017 19:32

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

Fangz posted:

They misattributed a quote from Gregor Strasser who was a left wing rival of Hitler's within the early Nazi party.

Hitler himself said some similar things during the early 20s:

posted:

Socialism as the final concept of duty, the ethical duty of work, not just for oneself but also for one�s fellow man�s sake, and above all the principle: Common good before own good, a struggle against all parasitism and especially against easy and unearned income. And we were aware that in this fight we can rely on no one but our own people. We are convinced that socialism in the right sense will only be possible in nations and races that are Aryan, and there in the first place we hope for our own people and are convinced that socialism is inseparable from nationalism.

But none of that sounds like the modern left. Historically the main difference between socialists and national socialists/'Strasserists' was the second half there, but the modern political left won't even commit to the first half, while the modern political right style themselves as 'libertarian non-racists'.

# ? Feb 13, 2017 19:40

Lt. Danger: Dec 22, 2006; jolly good chaps we sure showed the hun

I can't believe Nazis would misappropriate radical rhetoric to suit their own violent purposes. That sounds unethical.

# ? Feb 13, 2017 19:50

Fangz: Jul 5, 2007; Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!

I'm not gonna argue for the awesomeness of Strasser, I'm just saying the original tweet is a misattributed quote. You can tell it's the Strasser quote from the still-visible first words on that tweet. The opposition to capitalism there is probably what's being used to drive the 'Hitler sounds like the modern left' comparison.

Trying to figure out IS HITLER SOCIALIST is mostly a fool's game.

Fangz fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Feb 13, 2017

# ? Feb 13, 2017 20:07

TomViolence: Feb 19, 2013; PLEASE ASK ABOUT MY 80,000 WORD WALLACE AND GROMIT SLASH FICTION. PLEASE.

Democracy is evil, you see, because North Korea's a democracy, it's in the name and everything.

# ? Feb 13, 2017 20:11

namesake: Jun 19, 2006; "When I was a girl, around 12 or 13, I had a fantasy that I'd grow up to marry Captain Scarlet, but he'd be busy fighting the Mysterons so I'd cuckold him with the sexiest people I could think of - Nigel Mansell, Pat Sharp and Mr. Blobby."

Maybe Fiona Mills is The Saurus' mum.

# ? Feb 13, 2017 20:23

forkboy84: Jun 13, 2012; Corgis love bread. And Puro

Fangz posted:

I'm not gonna argue for the awesomeness of Strasser, I'm just saying the original tweet is a misattributed quote. You can tell it's the Strasser quote from the still-visible first words on that tweet. The opposition to capitalism there is probably what's being used to drive the 'Hitler sounds like the modern left' comparison.

Trying to figure out IS HITLER SOCIALIST is mostly a fool's game.

It's actually easy to figure out. He wasn't.

Since we're talking about Strasser, who was the bad dumb gimmick account claiming to be a Strasserite? That was bad and dumb.

# ? Feb 13, 2017 20:39

Total Meatlove: Jan 28, 2007; Rangers died, shoujo Hitler cried ;_;

How badly do you think UKIP would have to lose Stoke for the BBC to stop gushing over them?

# ? Feb 13, 2017 20:41

JFairfax: Oct 23, 2008; by FactsAreUseless

when is this stoke election? I want it to be over already

# ? Feb 13, 2017 20:48

Dead Goon: Dec 13, 2002; No Obvious Flaws

23rd, isn't it?

# ? Feb 13, 2017 20:49

Paxman: Feb 7, 2010

Stoke and Copeland are both on the 23rd. My prediction based on nothing much: Labour to hold Stoke, lose Copeland, and claim holding one seat as the opposition in by-elections is a good result.

# ? Feb 13, 2017 20:51

JFairfax: Oct 23, 2008; by FactsAreUseless

Dead Goon posted:

23rd, isn't it?

loving hell just get it over and done with.

# ? Feb 13, 2017 20:55

Dead Goon: Dec 13, 2002; No Obvious Flaws

Labour win Stoke - clearly, nothing to do with Corbyn, this victory is in spite of Corbyn, bad leader, etc., etc., Corbyn out.

Labour loses Copeland - clearly, this is completely down to Corbyn, he is 100% responsible for this, bad leader, etc., etc., Corbyn out.

# ? Feb 13, 2017 20:56

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# ? May 10, 2024 19:39

Fangz: Jul 5, 2007; Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!

forkboy84 posted:

It's actually easy to figure out. He wasn't.

It's a fool's game because even to engage in this argument is to accept a whole bunch of false assumptions, not least the assumption of good faith.

Personally I think Labour will lose both Stoke and Copeland and it will change no one's opinions.

EDIT: Suggested alternative response to "Hitler was a socialist":

If that's right, how come you lot like him so much?

Fangz fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Feb 13, 2017

# ? Feb 13, 2017 20:57

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